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Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag

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OfflineBigGreenMat
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Registered: 11/04/13
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Re: Kitty Litter Pasturisation Tek [Re: Violet]
    #19321862 - 12/24/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Violet, what would be your suggestion for more even heating for pasteurization?  Smaller batches for more even spreading of temperature (mass)?  Increased surface area techniques (length)?  Some sort of active agitation to more evenly heat (essentially length)?  It seems that just being patient wouldn't really work unless you somehow were able to increase the heat only a few degrees at a time for the whole batch over a long time period (temperature and time).  Depending on batch size that could be several hours to get an even heating to 63 C throughout the entire batch.

I am scheming to use whirlpaks (we use them for plate incubation made very flat (high surface area) which can be submerged completely and should allow much more even heating.  This is obviously more work too compared to just some giant bag in a pot.

I am really interested in hearing a different approach for more even pasteurization given the variables in play.


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Kitty Litter Pasturisation Tek [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19321891 - 12/24/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

do you mean even heating like trying to get the whole sub at temps of 140-160 to limit the over ride?


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OfflineBigGreenMat
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Re: Kitty Litter Pasturisation Tek [Re: cronicr]
    #19321905 - 12/24/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Even heating as in the outer material and inner material don't completely lose touch temperature wise.  Her point was that the boil away attitude was leading to temps higher than 170 on the outer material during pasteurization while the inner temp was in range leading to partial sterilization.  I was asking what exactly she would do to combat this.  There are only certain ways, which I asked about in post.  I was wondering what her strategy was to avoid this problem.


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Kitty Litter Pasturisation Tek [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19321925 - 12/24/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

gotcha, just wondering because as far as i know we only go by the middle to limit the amount of microbes in the sub in general


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Kitty Litter Pasturisation Tek [Re: cronicr]
    #19321993 - 12/24/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My thing is that I don't yet believe that higher temperatures would travel any (or much) faster thru the container and substrate.
I still ended up hot bathing my sub bags for about 150 minutes.
So if the heat will rise in the core in the same time anyway, then not only there is no need to use an excessively high temperature, but there are several known reasons not to.

Think about it.  It's so important to not exceed 170°F core temperature (relative to temp/time) because it would kill the last of the beneficial microbes.  Such care to preserve the remaining core microbes yet such disregard for the majority of them...  Obviously if staying in the range of 140-165°F is important for the core we can be sure the reason why applies to All the sub the same way.

By the time the pasteurization temps have reached the core, the periphery has been up to temp more than long enough to be treated (moreso the thicker the substrate and container),  so if your water temps are exceedingly high then the periphery of the sub is well beyond 170°F for far beyond the required treatment time.
So when cranked up to boil the water and the substrate both have more heat energy in them than they need and for more time than is needed.
As long as the line isn't crossed then the remaining beneficial microbes are able to do the job called for in pasteurization, but they are assuredly less in number and more in damage than is possible.  It works anyway because the contaminant organisms are definitely killed, the substrate itself has a low nutrition by nature, and we usually give our intended organisms an incredible head start on lots and lots of colonized grain in somewhat clean conditions.

I'm just acknowledging the fact that controlling temperature greatly reduces the temp-over-time the entirety of the sub's microorganisms have to bear.  I'm not necessarily saying that it will make an apparent difference for anyone.  If anything I'm saying that the difference it make may cause one to not notice as much at all - in the lines of contams perhaps.

But it's for sure that wherever higher than pasteurization temps are there is more energy expended than necessary, especially since water's high specific heat costs more energy per degree.  Even on this alone it should be preferred to keep water bath temps consistent. There's no reason not to, but reasons to.


One doesn't have to be a retentive stickler for a steady temperature.  It can bounce and wave some but keeping it to the pasteurization range definitely works as treatment and assuredly kills less of the creatures that the point of pasteurization (instead of sterilization) is to retain.


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Edited by Violet (12/24/13 09:04 PM)


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Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag


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