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OrgoneConclusion
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Martin Luther
#19144186 - 11/16/13 05:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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“Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom … Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”
“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but -- more frequently than not -- struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
“Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.”
“There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason... Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed.” “Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.”
Martin Luther is not alone among Christian leaders in this warped stance against using the brain you were born with to think things through. This fear comes from the realization that sheep cannot remain sheep if allowed or encouraged to use rationality.
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Icelander
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And not just christians. Most religious, even if they claim otherwise.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Martin Luther [Re: Icelander] 1
#19144623 - 11/16/13 09:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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And New Agers! Let's widen the net to see how many people we can piss off with a single thread.
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: “Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom … Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”
“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but -- more frequently than not -- struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
“Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.”
“There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason... Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed.” “Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.”
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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He was really into whores. Whoredom. Whoring. Prostitution. Martin Luther was a pocket puppet, a heinous anus, a spincteronimous going Geronimo. In short a total Ho.
-------------------- ...or something
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Repertoire89
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Hobozen


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nothing.
prepare your anus.
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andrewmurray86
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Martin Luther is not alone among Christian leaders in this warped stance against using the brain you were born with to think things through. This fear comes from the realization that sheep cannot remain sheep if allowed or encouraged to use rationality.
I'm not sure you've spent a lot of time in modern theological institutions. The statement you have made is the opposite of what is taught. At least in Australia. I cannot speak for other countries but I imagine England would be of similar standing.
Reason for edit: geographical qualification
Edited by andrewmurray86 (11/17/13 03:04 PM)
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
I'm not sure you've spent a lot of time in modern theological institutions. The statement you have made is the opposite of what is taught. At least in Australia. I cannot speak for other countries but I imagine England would be of similar standing.
Reason for edit: geographical qualification
In more or less words, what you've said is untrue. Do they not teach according to the "bible"?
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andrewmurray86
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
In more or less words, what you've said is untrue. Do they not teach according to the "bible"?
If you have attended a theological institution in Australia then please fill me in on the course you studied and the content thereof.
I happen to study at a theological institution in Australia that fosters encourages and promotes critical thinking when approaching any text especially the bible. It teaches correct hermeneutical methods for approaching texts that are 3500-2000 years old and thoroughly removed from our modern culture. It teaches the truth regarding the historicity of the texts and does not attempt to indoctrinate or mis-lead its students.
So, yes they teach according to the bible, not the modern version of fundamentalism you're probably equating with the bible 
Not that anyone could blame you for that, Christians in general are not very good examples of Christ 
If you're wondering, I am pro gay-marriage, I believe that the earth is 4.5 Billion years old and that our universe is around 14 Billion years old and I believe that Jesus Christ is a historically verifiable person and that indeed He is God. I do not believe there is any conflict between science and Christianity.
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
In more or less words, what you've said is untrue. Do they not teach according to the "bible"?
If you have attended a theological institution in Australia then please fill me in on the course you studied and the content thereof.
I happen to study at a theological institution in Australia that fosters encourages and promotes critical thinking when approaching any text especially the bible. It teaches correct hermeneutical methods for approaching texts that are 3500-2000 years old and thoroughly removed from our modern culture. It teaches the truth regarding the historicity of the texts and does not attempt to indoctrinate or mis-lead its students.
So, yes they teach according to the bible, not the modern version of fundamentalism you're probably equating with the bible 
Not that anyone could blame you for that, Christians in general are not very good examples of Christ 
If you're wondering, I am pro gay-marriage, I believe that the earth is 4.5 Billion years old and that our universe is around 14 Billion years old and I believe that Jesus Christ is a historically verifiable person and that indeed He is God. I do not believe there is any conflict between science and Christianity.
I happen to study at a theological institution in Australia
That only makes me take your opinion far less seriously.
I believe that Jesus Christ is a historically verifiable person and that indeed He is God. I do not believe there is any conflict between science and Christianity.
And this is what I'm talking about, christianity breeds cognitive dissonance and dismisses logic. Its a "philosophy" with an assumption as its center, a series of assumptions all of which must be assumed instead of reasons, believed instead of dismissing without evidence.
Behind science is the need for proof, behind religion is assumption.
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Icelander
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I believe that Jesus Christ is a historically verifiable person and that indeed He is God. I do not believe there is any conflict between science and Christianity
OK I'll bite. How do you scientifically validate your belief that this Christ is actually a god?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

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If you and Diploid are my brothers you reply to me, it's that simple, if I am number three you make a thread or PM for me. I HAVE FUCKING STOOD UP FOR evEryoNE here AND You Know IT, now my father is hurt.
I don't wont this no more.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: If you and Diploid are my brothers you reply to me, it's that simple, if I am number three you make a thread or PM for me. I HAVE FUCKING STOOD UP FOR evEryoNE here AND You Know IT, now my father is hurt.
I don't wont this no more.
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andrewmurray86
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That only makes me take your opinion far less seriously.
That's unfortunate but only really affects you.
Behind science is the need for proof, behind religion is assumption.
Again, it's unfortunate that this assumption exists. There is far less assumption in religion than you perceive there to be. I would go as far even that there is less than in science. Like I said, there is no conflict between science and Christianity, just between those who have different views.
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Icelander
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OK I'll bite. How do you scientifically validate your belief that this Christ is actually a god?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Fuck Christ (FUCK LADY GAGA) give me my tickets.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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andrewmurray86
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Quote:
Icelander said:
OK I'll bite. How do you scientifically validate your belief that this Christ is actually a god?
I don't that is entirely on faith. Sorry if i gave you the impression that was what I was saying. The historical part however is easy enough if you take a very cursory look.
I couldn't offer you anything that would convince you Christ is indeed God, at least not over the interwebs.
I could show you evidence thereof from history but like I said, nothing that would satisfy you beyond doubt.
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Icelander
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I don't that is entirely on faith.
Well then I'd say there certainly is conflict between science and christianity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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andrewmurray86
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Even the big bang theory remains only a theory... yet I'm sure the satisfaction of the scientific community is filled on that account?
Regardless, I only want to point out that Christians aren't the only ones with faith... The evidence of things not seen.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
The historical part however is easy enough if you take a very cursory look.
Plants being created before the sun?
Living inside a whale for three days?
or
The worldwide flood?
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Icelander
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: Even the big bang theory remains only a theory... yet I'm sure the satisfaction of the scientific community is filled on that account?
Regardless, I only want to point out that Christians aren't the only ones with faith... The evidence of things not seen.
Nothing is filled and science is not people.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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andrewmurray86
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The context was Christ. Genesis is poetry my friend, Jonah I haven't investigated at any level beyond simply reading the text.
Hermeneutics is an essential key when approaching any text, especially the bible. A thorough knowledge of Ancient Hebrew is advised as is understanding of the Ancient Near East culture, especially Jewish which is different to the neighbouring cultures when looking at the OT.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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I fuck christiniaty just let me get on a vacation or i am ouT OF HERE. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ME.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
Edited by liquidlounge (04/12/14 05:16 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Even the big bang theory remains only a theory...
Note to audience: This is why it is nigh impossible to have any sort of deep discussion.
Please tell us, oh uneducated one, what supercedes a scientific theory?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Genesis is poetry my friend
Please delineate how one can determine A PRIORI which parts are factual and which parts are allegorical.
Hint: you cannot - this is why there are some 10,000+ flavors of Christianity.
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andrewmurray86
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Are not scientific laws?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Write in complete sentences, please!
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andrewmurray86
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Genesis is poetry my friend
Please delineate how one can determine A PRIORI which parts are factual and which parts are allegorical.
Hint: you cannot - this is why there are some 10,000+ flavors of Christianity.
You speak like one who has no understanding of language. Your arrogance on the topic doesn't equate to knowledge.
It is very easy to delineate the parts that are and are not. It's just as easy to do it in Hebrew as it is in English. For example: Once upon a time... or Welcome to the evening news... or 3 guys walk into a bar...
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: Are not scientific laws?
Nope. A scientific theory is the absolute pinnacle of inquiry, research and experimentation.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
You speak like one who has no understanding of language.
This is why I was paid the big bux as a technical writer.
Quote:
It is very easy to delineate the parts that are and are not. It's just as easy to do it in Hebrew as it is in English.

So easy that no one can do it. Hence the 10,000 flavors.
Do you know there are at least five FIVE different takes on the body and blood of Jesus according to various churches? Some metaphorical; some factual and some a little of both. And that is just a single passage.
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andrewmurray86
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You seem to ignore the things I have said regarding hermeneutics.
It is very easy to create mixed ideas when you look at anything, let alone the bible, out of context and in a language different from what it was written.
I'm not sure there are ten thousand different denominations either. And even if there were 10 million they are united on the same core principles.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
they are united on the same core principles
Killing gays
Support of slavery
Suppression of women
Disdain for science
Love of war
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
You seem to ignore the things I have said regarding hermaneutics.
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andrewmurray86
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
they are united on the same core principles
Killing gays
Support of slavery
Suppression of women
Disdain for science
Love of war
You're just hating now.
I think all my posts here (on shroomery in general) have just about proved all of that wrong.
If you want more proof, you can check my twitter feed same as my shroomery username.
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andrewmurray86
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Failing that you can take my word that I am pro gay-marriage, a supporter of the A21 Campaign and other organisations. Supporter of international aid and sponsorship programs. Very committed to tackling patriarchy and elevating the status of women in society, volunteering my time to help the Herbarium with the Royal Botanical Gardens and other organisation, amateur geologist and fossil enthusiast and a supporter of non-violence practices.
I hope that in some way I can change your (and others) perceptions of the way someone who loves Jesus acts/thinks.
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Repertoire89
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
That only makes me take your opinion far less seriously.
That's unfortunate but only really affects you.
If affects everyone, the whole world suffers because of religion.
Quote:
Behind science is the need for proof, behind religion is assumption.
Again, it's unfortunate that this assumption exists. There is far less assumption in religion than you perceive there to be. I would go as far even that there is less than in science. Like I said, there is no conflict between science and Christianity, just between those who have different views.
Name one shred of tangible proof you can verify objectively, which shows that there is a God or that - that "God" is Jesus. I've had many out of body experiences, how many christians have even had one? Let alone an experience which they attribute to their finding that deity, instead they join the religion and fill their heads with assumptions, and if any experience occurs its colored by the ingrained images and ideas of that religion - a self-fulfilling prophesy.
That being said, my own experiences go far and wide beyond my psychedelic experiences, but they do not qualify as proof to me or anyone else.
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andrewmurray86
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There are documented cases of the miraculous. Would you even bother to look into this or accept them?
I, personally was healed of depression in an instant when I converted to Christianity, long before I ever entered a church. You don't need to believe me, but this doesn't affect the truth of the matter.
I think the fact that the Church still exists 2,000 years later is proof enough, not many things exist that long. Yet, again, is that enough for you? I somehow think it is not. Apologetics is a fun field but in terms of convincing it is not effective. It generally only keeps skeptics quiet until they can think of new loopholes that they choose to keep themselves from being convinced of the existence of God. Having said that, questions are an important part of anyone's faith!
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Icelander
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What documented cases?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
I think the fact that the Church still exists 2,000 years later is proof enough, not many things exist that long.
Weevils have existed for 2,000 years too.... I guess that proves the miracle of bread into wine or whatever
There are thousands of cases of documented miracles from Sai Baba unfortunately many of them are how he got his pencil dick into young boys
-------------------- ...or something
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: I think the fact that the Church still exists 2,000 years later is proof enough, not many things exist that long.
All it proves is that people have been gullible for a long, long time, and the more entrenched a mega-cult becomes, the easier it is for it to swallow up new followers.
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Hobozen


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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: There are documented cases of the miraculous. Would you even bother to look into this or accept them?
How do you know these documented cases weren't made up to support some greed-fueled scheme?
Quote:
I, personally was healed of depression in an instant when I converted to Christianity, long before I ever entered a church.
How do you know it wasn't something like the placebo effect?
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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Quote:
Icelander said:

What documented cases?
They were documented by humans. Have faith !
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andrewmurray86
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Re: Martin Luther [Re: Hobozen]
#19151280 - 11/17/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
blankk said:
Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: There are documented cases of the miraculous. Would you even bother to look into this or accept them?
How do you know these documented cases weren't made up to support some greed-fueled scheme?
Quote:
I, personally was healed of depression in an instant when I converted to Christianity, long before I ever entered a church.
How do you know it wasn't something like the placebo effect?
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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HOW YOU KNOW?
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

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Flawless rebuttal, Andrew. I see you are indeed a student of logic.
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andrewmurray86
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Sleepwalker, show me 1 peer reviewed medical journal that has an article where someone was cured of depression, on the spot, due to a placebo effect.
I'll happily delete that retract that post, until the time that you do so, that remains the most appropriate response.
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Icelander
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Christianity caused my depression.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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andrewmurray86
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I'm very sorry to hear that 
I gotta bounce y'all. I'll be back later and will post some more if it's relevant/worthwhile.
It's been... well kinda exactly how I thought it would be :P
Peace.
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: Sleepwalker, show me 1 peer reviewed medical journal that has an article where someone was cured of depression, on the spot, due to a placebo effect.
I'll happily delete that retract that post, until the time that you do so, that remains the most appropriate response.
Quote:
blankk said: something like the placebo effect
Meaning that it could have been similar to the placebo effect, in that you tricked yourself into thinking/behaving in a new way. Happens all the time. Nothing miraculous.
Edited by Hobozen (11/17/13 07:24 PM)
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Icelander
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: I'm very sorry to hear that 
I gotta bounce y'all. I'll be back later and will post some more if it's relevant/worthwhile.
It's been... well kinda exactly how I thought it would be :P
Peace.
Jesus gave me the depression. It's a fucking miracle.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said: There are documented cases of the miraculous. Would you even bother to look into this or accept them?
I, personally was healed of depression in an instant when I converted to Christianity, long before I ever entered a church. You don't need to believe me, but this doesn't affect the truth of the matter.
I think the fact that the Church still exists 2,000 years later is proof enough, not many things exist that long. Yet, again, is that enough for you? I somehow think it is not. Apologetics is a fun field but in terms of convincing it is not effective. It generally only keeps skeptics quiet until they can think of new loopholes that they choose to keep themselves from being convinced of the existence of God. Having said that, questions are an important part of anyone's faith!
Being "healed" of depression, not evidence. We had a guy talking about goose bumps being evidence of chi the other day, this evidence is right in line with that for lack of extraordinary.
Slavery lasted longer then 2000 years in some places, what proof is that of anything?
As far as "loopholes" and circular logic, the burden of proof is on the one making an extraordinary claim. Claiming that there is an invisible man whom you haven't seen or heard, who created the universe and controls / judges everything in it, is an extraordinary claim. So a lot more evidence is needed to back it than what could easily be explained as a placebo, that is not sufficient evidence and neither is the existence of any oppressive doctrines written by semi-cave people lasting longer than 2000 years.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
andrewmurray86 said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
they are united on the same core principles
Killing gays
Support of slavery
Suppression of women
Disdain for science
Love of war
You're just hating now.
Does sound sort of hateful doesn't it? Well, four of five are directives from your Holy Book.
The other one is an observation which you have exhibited.
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Icelander
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ouch
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
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Re: Martin Luther [Re: Icelander] 2
#19153010 - 11/18/13 07:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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From viewpoint of science mere documentation is not evidence. Hearsay is not evidence. A coterie of believers is not evidence. In fact from science standpoint evidence is not truth. The truth is postulated from an outcome which can be duplicated by anybody.
Nothing about Jesus can be duplicated (since he's the only besotted Son of Gourd), so there can be no science to anything Jesus. There can be no evidence of miracles because they rely upon hearsay and a coalition of believers.
There is no point trying to bridge faith and science. To do so is to water down both. I know Jesuses like to turn water into wine. But it's simply impossible to turn faith into science. Even God can't do that!
SO, um, sorry, religious losers, you all are very thick headed.
-------------------- ...or something
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Martin Luther [Re: eve69]
#19153756 - 11/18/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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All that and a master with the women. 
I'd say he's got it all but then I remember he has to come here to find friends. 
Not to mention school loans he'll never be able to repay.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Martin Luther [Re: eve69]
#19153898 - 11/18/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: From viewpoint of science mere documentation is not evidence. Hearsay is not evidence. A coterie of believers is not evidence. In fact from science standpoint evidence is not truth. The truth is postulated from an outcome which can be duplicated by anybody.
I think you have that backwards. From a scientific standpoint evidence is the only truth. More precisely, observations are the only truth. I observe a bright round object in the sky that hurts my eyes. That is an unassailable truth, I observed it. I then formulate hypothesis and theories based on this observational evidence which are not strictly truth not matter how accurate I believe them to be.
Edited by DieCommie (11/18/13 12:43 PM)
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