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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143140 - 11/15/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

And if they were the same, why would they have different definitions for the same drug?


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143179 - 11/15/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They aren't run by the government, but each hospital/university is a part of the AMA, and the AMA and the FDA consult each other. Like how the AMA would show through trials a drug that needs passing, so the FDA puts it through more trials to pass their standard before it's commercially available. If the FDA decides that the drug isn't safe enough, it doesn't get passed. Now IMO, that means that ultimately, the government is in charge and eventually the official voice of the medical community.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143194 - 11/15/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Regardless there is no medically accaepted definition of MDMA being a psychedelic. I have been in the seen for 16 years. Most people I have partied with do not consider it one either.

They call it tripping for a reason, because you can literally go on a trip to somewhere else. On MDMA you know exactly what is going on and where you are. Yes it can cause slight changes in visual perception, but is not psychedelic.


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Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143233 - 11/15/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Again, you need to read what the term "empathogen" means....

"The terms empathogen and entactogen are used to describe a class of psychoactive drugs that produce distinctive emotional and social effects similar to those of MDMA (ecstasy)"

This term was basically created to give meaning to the social and emotional effect of MDMA, not to classify the drug away from any others...If LSD always made you super happy constantly, it'd be an empathogen AND a psychedelic, but it doesn't, or else bad acid trips probably wouldn't exist.

LSD is a psychedelic ONLY....
MDMA is a psychedelic AND and empathogen....it is a sub class within the psychedelic class, which is a sub class within all psychoactive drugs.




yet again sir, you are using YOUR definition of psychedelic, not the real one...
"A psychedelic substance is a psychoactive drug whose primary action is to alter cognition and perception....Unlike other drugs such as stimulants and opioids which induce familiar states of consciousness, psychedelics tend to affect and explore the mind in ways that result in the experience being qualitatively different from those of ordinary consciousness."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug

Meaning that instead of only being an upper/downer in the same state of consciousness, it changes the conciousness. Cocaine or heroin won't make you love or change your mind on a subject, but MDMA, and other psychedelics, will.




not relevant, but points to how marijuana is a psychedelic, which would, to me, associate MDMA "psychedelic therapy" too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug

"Many psychedelic drugs worldwide are illegal unless used in a medical context, such as psychedelic therapy or medical cannabis. Despite these regulations, recreational use of psychedelics is common."


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143245 - 11/15/13 10:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Most people I have partied with do not consider it one either.




Ever talk to someone who's had an MDMA therapy session. I'd imagine their opinion would be far different....Like I said earlier, a bunch of people partying on MDMA are not going to get a spiritual or therapeutic experience. A bunch of people dancing on LSD will not have that experience either. That's why McKenna suggested complete darkness and silence for a "heroic dose" or a really deep trip in general. These distractions like parties are not going to give you that kind of experience.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143280 - 11/15/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

These distractions like parties are not going to give you that kind of experience.




Apparently you have not taken enough psychedelics to know that when you get complete ego death, it does not matter your surroundings because you are gone. You will get to the point that you do not know who you are, what you are, or where you are. You are just pure being and consciousness. You know nothing that came before that moment, nothing after matters. Your body is moving around with eyes open, but your mind is disintegrated into a million fractals and your mind no longer comprehends what it means to be human. That is the power of psychedelics. MDMA will NEVER provide that. 


You have still failed to provide any legit medical source for MDMA being an actual psychedelic. You are going merely on opinion. YOu obviously cannot come up with any professional sources.

You can go on and keep telling yourself that is is a psychedelic when it would never open you consciousness like a real psychedelic would. A full blown MDMA experience cannot and will not ever compare to a full blown psychedelic experience. They are definitely not in the same category.

I am done with this argument, it is clear that wiki is your only source . . . I have better things to do and I have wasted way too much time already. If you want to keep spreading misinformation I do not even care any more. Peace.


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143308 - 11/15/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, what an angry attitude to have....You get mad at a simple discussion and then decide to question what I have experienced in my own life...I am trying to base my opinion on facts I find, while you just sit here and argue that because you go to a bunch of parties, you have worthwhile experience.....Have you read a single book by any well known author for psychedelics? Even thought about the practice of meditation or anything? True people have varying levels of distraction, and of course a higher and higher dose will make that less relevant, but can you really say that loud music and a bunch of drunk/MDMA'd out dancers is a setting where you will find serious spiritual enlightenment, or ego dissolution?

You describe it fine, just like anyone else who claims they dissolved their ego, but have you actually experienced it? Your attitude of "I am always right, you are always wrong, even with written evidence" seems to say otherwise. I have even tried to somewhat come to an agreement with you, yet you continue to distance your opinion from one that is mutually agreeable to both of us. Yes, I site wiki, and 2 government sites, and erowid I believe once in this discussion. You, however, seem to think that all these sources are wrong and you, with your infinite knowledge, are right. Even when shown you were wrong on the jaw tension issue, you cannot be a man and say you were wrong, much less apologize...I gave this one last shot, and you still cannot understand, maybe you just weren't meant to...

IF A MOD SEE'S THIS, PLEASE CLOSE THE THREAD, THE JAW QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED AND THIS DEAD HORSE HAS BEEN BEATEN FOR TOO LONG.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143420 - 11/15/13 11:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Ok since you make all these assumptions about me I will go ahead and respond even though I am wasting so much time when you still have provided no evidence.


Quote:

You get mad at a simple discussion





I have not gotten angry at any point in this discussion




Quote:

I am trying to base my opinion on facts I find, while you just sit here and argue that because you go to a bunch of parties,





There you go putting words in my mouth again. I never said I went to a bunch of parties. In fact I rarely go to shows or festivals.


Quote:

Have you read a single book by any well known author for psychedelics? Even thought about the practice of meditation or anything?




I have read several books on psychedelics and meditation. I practice bikram yoga weekly. Most of my trips take place out in the woods or at home, alone or with a few friends.





Quote:

True people have varying levels of distraction, and of course a higher and higher dose will make that less relevant, but can you really say that loud music and a bunch of drunk/MDMA'd out dancers is a setting where you will find serious spiritual enlightenment, or ego dissolution





I have had some of my most enlightening trips in these types of setting. I had complete ego dissolution at a drum circle with hundreds of people.  Although I do not prefer to trip in those settings very often



Quote:

You describe it fine, just like anyone else who claims they dissolved their ego, but have you actually experienced it?





yes in fact I was describing a personal expereince I had at the drum circle previously mentioned. Not going off of anything I heard or read. I took 3 geltabs, got impatient and took 2 more 20 minutes later. I left my body and my consciousness was completely dissolved. The fire pit was a huge cement square the size of a pallet. It had burned down to just orange hot coals. In my mind we were standing around a portal to another dimension. It felt like the beginning of time. I did not remember anything of my life at that moment and the notion that I had eaten acid was long gone.

I remember thinking we all had to go into the poertal but everyone was a afraid. I do not remember going in, but luckily I had on some heavy leather boots and some friends that poured water on my boots when they had hot coals caked on the soles. After that, according to them, I just wandered around speaking in tongues for hours.  My mind was gone

The next thing I knew it was as if i woke up from a nap, completely sober. there was no comedown. One second I was complete oblivion and the next I was standing there sober like WTF just happened.  Thee is a lot more to that experience but too long to type right now



Quote:

Yes, I site wiki, and 2 government sites, and erowid I believe once in this discussion.






Well the erowid link reinforced my opinion that it is not a real psychedelic. And I would trust wiki before I trust the govt., but I do not trust either without any scientific evidence to back it up. And niether one has that


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


Edited by LiquidGlass (11/15/13 11:39 PM)


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143507 - 11/15/13 11:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

(Sigh) Whatever, man, it is obvious you are incapable of seeing another person's point of view. I am done arguing about it, and don't care to hear stories from someone who has this Aristotle like ego about them. Like I have said before, listen to your own signature. You aren't the be-all end-all of knowledge in the universe, and are a fool to think you can not be incorrect. You have been corrected once, and in anger, have to refute every part of this conversation to make your point correct. You can't even leave well enough alone and just let this thread die. Someone doesn't share your point of view, sorry. You asked for citation, I provided. Case closed.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143580 - 11/16/13 12:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Godfather1376 said:
(Sigh) Whatever, man, it is obvious you are incapable of seeing another person's point of view. I am done arguing about it, and don't care to hear stories from someone who has this Aristotle like ego about them. Like I have said before, listen to your own signature. You aren't the be-all end-all of knowledge in the universe, and are a fool to think you can not be incorrect. You have been corrected once, and in anger, have to refute every part of this conversation to make your point correct. You can't even leave well enough alone and just let this thread die. Someone doesn't share your point of view, sorry. You asked for citation, I provided. Case closed.






I never said I was the be-all end-all knowledge in the universe. There you go putting words in my mouth yet again. And you accuse me of being angry again, but at no point in this conversation did I lose my temper.  You say I wont let this thread die, that may be true but you realize you are just as guilty of that accusation.

You posted some sources, but not any legit ones, and saying nothing other than it has mild psychedelic properties, but is not a true psychedelic


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Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143585 - 11/16/13 12:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just.....stop......it......I didn't say you said that. I said that is what your attitude comes off as, as you cannot take criticism........Just.......stop.....it......


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143601 - 11/16/13 12:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Godfather1376 said:
Just.....stop......it......I didn't say you said that. I said that is what your attitude comes off as, as you cannot take criticism........Just.......stop.....it......




So because I have an opinion on one thing that you do not agree with that makes me have an Aristotle complex? ok lol

You could also take your own advice and just.........stop........it..........







Straight from Erowid( a source I turst way before wiki or the government ):
Quote:

COMMON & BRAND NAMES
Ecstasy; E; X; XTC; Rolls; Beans; Adam; Molly

EFFECTS CLASSIFICATION
Euphoric Empathogen; Stimulant; Phenethylamine

CHEMICAL NAME
3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine

DESCRIPTION
MDMA is one of the most popular recreational psychoactives, most commonly sold in the form of "ecstasy" tablets. It is known for its empathogenic, euphoric, and stimulant effects, and has also been used in psychotherapy.





Does not say anything about it being a psychedelic


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineGodfather1376
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19143649 - 11/16/13 12:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wohoo for you that you found the exact same words I've been talking about this whole time...from now on, for your sake, I will now call MDMA an empathogen. Are you happy now? Will you finally let this thread go to the bottom and end? I'm assuming no, because it seems you have to have the last word. I now agree with you wholeheartedly, you are a god among men and no one shall refute your infinite wisdom.

And no, the fact that you cannot imagine yourself being wrong makes this philosopher complex of yours. Did you know that even philosophers were taught something by the average person sometimes, too? I have even admitted I am wrong on this thread, trying to agree with you at some medium point. You have no sense of how to properly converse and end an argument like a rational person. I am done listening to you, we are done listening to you, and your insistence to continue dredging this up is annoying.

Oh, and good job finding a source for anything you say, finally. Got to learn how to use that google, eh?


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Invisiblebirdland

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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143680 - 11/16/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What the fuck is this needing to categorise, label and narrow down everything in to their separate little compartments of black and white.

Wow.

:holyshit:


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: Godfather1376]
    #19143683 - 11/16/13 12:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I do not think I am a God among men nor that I have infinite wisdom. I also never claimed to be a philosopher and I do not consider myself to be one. And I can imagine myself being wrong, I have been many times.


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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Invisiblebirdland

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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: cez]
    #19143696 - 11/16/13 12:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The jaw tension probably is related to the stimulation. Whether or not it's specifically caused by dopamine though I have no idea.


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