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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
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Quote:
Godfather1376 said:
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LiquidGlass said: Calling me a troll for asking for a source is what I was referring to. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
I asked, not accused. I asked, because for someone so eager for information, you seem to want to require source info from someone who voices a logical conclusion they came up to, but have none to give for yourself. You argue your opinion without any form of citation, yet criticize me when I did the same.
I satisfied both of your questions how LSD releases dopamine, and how dopamine causes jaw tension, using my relation to MDMA, and your only response was your opinion that MDMA isn't a psychedelic. That might be your personal opinion, but these sources, not my opinion, say different, that MDMA is just as psychedelic.
I then compare to marijuana, where you say that MDMA cannot send you "into the cosmos" like it does, but that is all subjective, and probably more based on set and setting rather than the drug. No one in a rave is going to have a deep experience on MDMA, but blind drug-therapy is known to be done with it. The "going into the cosmos" on MDMA might not be experienced unless you are in such a session.
Really? Putting words in your mouth? You didn't say that "high doses of THC" aren't psychedelic and send you in another world? Because that is exactly what one of your previous posts said. Are you back-tracking now?
oh wow, your from California too? What a coincidence, so am I. It means nothing lol. In many ways, Colorado and Washington are far ahead of us, especially in the winterizing processes in BHO.
I fucking QUOTED from the wiki page saying that MDMA is a psychedelic, how did you miss that?
In any case, whether we agree about the psychedelic class or not, this thread's question has been answered thoroughly. I don't care to argue farther with someone who is now refuting his own statements, with still not a single source to be found, while I have fought to try to show you something legitimate. Liquid, I'm sure you are a nice person, but you need to take advice from your own signature. I have listened to what you said, researched it, and found that the medical community (by as what wiki contains) disagrees with you. You however, despite my position, continue to think that you know all there is to know about these drugs and cannot possibly be wrong in your assumption.
I do apologize for asking if you were trolling, but you own lack of interest to research in a subject you continue to argue a point on led me to such a conclusion. I hope you can at least logically consider my stance, rather than just spout out again, without any proof, that "MDMA isn't a psychedelic".
You have not posted any sources saying MDMA was as psychedelic as LSD. And yes I live in California, in Humboldt county, I am sure you are familiar.
And yes you satisfied my questions on jaw tension, but then you went on to make the false statement that MDMA is considered a psychedelic which it is not. Check the wiki, it does not say MDMA is a psychedelic, nor does the medical community.
I consider your opinion that MDMA may produce some psychedelic like effects, but it still does not have anywhere near the power of a real psychedelic
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
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Loc: Pee En Double You
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Quote:
Godfather1376 said:
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LiquidGlass said: Wrong. THC in high doses can put people with low tolerances into another world very easily. Especially with dabs.
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LiquidGlass said: I never said anything about weed not being a psychedelic, but that really has nothing to do with what we are talking about
Really, putting words in your mouth....
Yes, you were implying that I said THC was a psychedelic, when I only implied it had psychedelic properties. I am not of the opinion it is a real psychedelic
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
Psychedelic Aventurer



Registered: 07/07/13
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And btw Liquid, by wiki definition, which I will post this time since you are unable to read that my MDMA definition was from wiki as well, this is what psychoactive really means:
"A psychoactive drug, psychopharmaceutical, or psychotropic is a chemical substance that crosses the blood–brain barrier and acts primarily upon the central nervous system where it affects brain function, resulting in alterations in perception, mood, consciousness, cognition, and behavior.[1]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug
That is literally EVERY drug, from cocaine to LSD.
You are spouting off terms that you act as if you are well versed in, but are completely incorrect.
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


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From the link YOU posted:
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Although most people don't experience much in the way of visuals from MDMA, a small percentage of people do. In general these 'visuals' are not described as incredibly interesting, not comparing to visuals that most people experience with the classic psychedelics, but are instead visual effects such as those you describe. Some of these can be explained by the nystigmus (eye wiggling) which is common with MDMA, and others are simply explained by individual variations in response from person to person.
If you have reason to believe that the material you have encountered is high quality MDMA, and that other's around you do not experience these effects, you are most likely just one of the people who experiences these effects. If, on the other hand, you had only experienced this after some particular material, or if others experienced it with you on certain occasions and not on others, it could be a result of the ecstasy being MDA, which is similar in effect to MDMA but is more likely to cause visuals.
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
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Quote:
Godfather1376 said: And btw Liquid, by wiki definition, which I will post this time since you are unable to read that my MDMA definition was from wiki as well, this is what psychoactive really means:
"A psychoactive drug, psychopharmaceutical, or psychotropic is a chemical substance that crosses the blood–brain barrier and acts primarily upon the central nervous system where it affects brain function, resulting in alterations in perception, mood, consciousness, cognition, and behavior.[1]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug
That is literally EVERY drug, from cocaine to LSD.
You are spouting off terms that you act as if you are well versed in, but are completely incorrect.
Quote:
Godfather1376 said: And btw Liquid, by wiki definition, which I will post this time since you are unable to read that my MDMA definition was from wiki as well, this is what psychoactive really means:
"A psychoactive drug, psychopharmaceutical, or psychotropic is a chemical substance that crosses the blood–brain barrier and acts primarily upon the central nervous system where it affects brain function, resulting in alterations in perception, mood, consciousness, cognition, and behavior.[1]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug
That is literally EVERY drug, from cocaine to LSD.
You are spouting off terms that you act as if you are well versed in, but are completely incorrect.
This does not have anything to do with what we are arguing about and does not help to prove your point in any way
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
Psychedelic Aventurer



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You specifically defined psychedelics as drugs that will bring "you out of your body into the cosmos" and then claim that people get put into another world, or the "cosmos" easily with high doses of THC. That is exactly what you said, and now you are back-tracking.
That is why I posed a question to you, one that you went over completely. If you classify marijuana as a psychedelic and it doesn't have intense visual effects, how can we leave MDMA out when in effect, it is much closer than marijuana.
No it isn't, but I am revealing by your inaccuracy that you are not even trying to correctly describe something, and are using these terms to your own gain when your use of them is completely incorrect. All drugs are psychoactive, not just cannabis. Cannabis, however, is in the PSYCHEDELIC category, which you refuted to earlier.
If you cannot see where you are incorrect and are unwilling to do so, then this conversation is over. I noted to you that I agreed that marijuana is a low-grade psychedelic and so is MDMA, and asked you where do we draw the line? You said you draw the line if something takes you to the "cosmos" then said that THC can do such. As we got closer to agreement, you backtracked yourself saying that it might have psychedelic properties, but isn't a psychedelic.
I think you need to reevaluate what the term psychedelic means to you, and get a firm stance. Not be all wishy-washy, using terms that don't even apply to the drug(s) we were discussing, saying that marijuana isn't a psychedelic, is a psychoactive. All drugs are psychoactive, and have their own categories to which they belong.
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 09:04 PM)
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


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Quote:
Godfather1376 said: You specifically defined psychedelics as drugs that will bring "you out of your body into the cosmos" and then claim that people get put into another world, or the "cosmos" easily with high doses of THC. That is exactly what you said, and now you are back-tracking.
That is why I posed a question to you, one that you went over completely. If you classify marijuana as a psychedelic and it doesn't have intense visual effects, how can we leave MDMA out when in effect, it is much closer than marijuana.
No it isn't, but I am revealing by your inaccuracy that you are not even trying to correctly describe something, and are using these terms to your own gain when your use of them is completely incorrect.
Obviously my definition is not the standard accepted definition and I do not claim it to be. IMO high doses of THC are closer to psychedelic than MDMA. I am not backtracking anything and never stated that I think THC was a true psych. You brought TCH into the mix.
The only thing I am currently arguing is that MDMA is not a psychedelic. I am now going to refrain from responding to any post you make that tries to change the subject.
This argument is going in circles. Until you prove that MDMA is considered a psychedelic in the medical community I have nothing more to say. have a great evening
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
Psychedelic Aventurer



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The standard definition is the MEDICAL definition...
This page specifically
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug
says, and I quote, AGAIN in section 5, pharmacological classes and effects, under empathogens, (please note other psychedelics, such as marijuana, LSD, and also dissociatives, are in this section too)
"The empathogen-entactogens are phenethylamines of the MDxx class such as MDMA, MDEA, and MDA. Their effects are characterized by feelings of openness, euphoria, empathy, love, heightened self-awareness, and by mild audio and visual distortions (an overall enhancement of sensory experience is often reported). Their adoption by the rave subculture is probably due to the enhancement of the overall social and musical experience. MDA is atypical to this experience, often causing hallucinations and psychedelic effects in equal profundity to the chemicals in the 5-HT2A agonist category, but with substantially less mental involvement, and is possibly both a serotonin releaser and 5-HT2A receptor agonist.[citation needed]"
I have given proof that MDMA is medically considered a psychedelic, you just refuse to accept that standard definition of psychedelic. Which is fine. You are arguing that your definition IS the medical definition, which it is definitely not.
While I agree that MDMA is not nearly as "off-worldy" to something that is more of a 5-HT2A agonist, like MDA, the scientific community still places it and marijuana in the psychedelic category, whether you agree with them or not.
I am now going to close this thread off my desktop because people who cannot take constructive criticism don't deserve too much attention. I've said my peace, and you've said yours. Whether you can even objectively see my position is a real question I have. Your biased opinion clouds the information that I have cited for you, and that information is something you requested.
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 09:19 PM)
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sytar
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Guys. Stop arguing. It is obvious that liquid glass is being a huge retard. I'm 99% sure that everyone else reading this thread is thinking the same. Save your breath.
-------------------- I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
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Quote:
The empathogen-entactogens are phenethylamines of the MDxx class such as MDMA, MDEA, and MDA. Their effects are characterized by feelings of openness, euphoria, empathy, love, heightened self-awareness, and by mild audio and visual distortions (an overall enhancement of sensory experience is often reported). Their adoption by the rave subculture is probably due to the enhancement of the overall social and musical experience. MDA is atypical to this experience, often causing hallucinations and psychedelic effects in equal profundity to the chemicals in the 5-HT2A agonist category, but with substantially less mental involvement, and is possibly both a serotonin releaser and 5-HT2A receptor agonist.[citation needed]
Again, yes it has some psychedelic effects, but it is not considered a true psychedelic and your source does not classify it as one.
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: sytar]
#19142949 - 11/15/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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sytar said: Guys. Stop arguing. It is obvious that liquid glass is being a huge retard. I'm 99% sure that everyone else reading this thread is thinking the same. Save your breath.
What a great contribution to the argument. All you have to add is calling people names? How about saying what it is you do not agree with or proving me wrong?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
Psychedelic Aventurer



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Ugh, fine, one last time.
May I ask how?
Section 5 in the wiki is meant to show classes of psychedelics and examples....
it goes like this: Serotonergic or classical psychedelics (5-HT2A receptor agonists) (your definition) Empathogen-entactogens (serotonin releasers) (MDMA is in this) Cannabinoids (CB-1 cannabinoid receptor agonists) Dissociatives (NMDA antagonists) Other (only salvia in this one)
Now assuming that we only think serotonergic psychedelics are the only "true" psychedelics (LSD, mescaline, shrooms), will you agree that Salvia and dissociatives are not psychedelics either?
As someone with Salvia experience (although I can't say much about dissociatives) I would thoroughly consider Salvia psychedelic. If we think that high doses of marijuana can cause visuals, can we not say the same for high doses of MDMA, LSD, dissociatives? Possibly, arguing marijuana has visual properties. Can we also say that a low enough dose of any of these won't give visuals? Yes. True we don't have many trip reports on the subject of super high MDMA doses, that might be useful. (don't take such a high dose for the sake of a report, anyone with a clever idea, I don't feel like being the one to get someone to OD on MDMA lol) But just because these don't fall in the "classic" category, doesn't make them any less of a psychedelic.
Also, 25i and other RC's are phenethylamines, as you emboldened. They are psychedelics, although many people don't prefer them.
And sytar, not trying to be devils advocate, but yea, random name calling isn't helpful to the conversation. Try to keep it adult and logical
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 09:36 PM)
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


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Quote:
True we don't have many trip reports on the subject of super high MDMA doses, that might be useful.
Super high doses will kill you, that is why
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Section 5 in the wiki is meant to show classes of psychedelics and examples....
And if you read at the bottom of the paragraph on Empathogen-entactogens (serotonin releasers), it says "citation needed" That is because thee is no source to back it up, it is not considered a psychedelic in the medical community.
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
Edited by LiquidGlass (11/15/13 09:45 PM)
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


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Quote:
Also, 25i and other RC's are phenethylamines
SO is mescaline
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
Psychedelic Aventurer



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Well yes of course too high of a dose will kill you, thus my disclaimer...However, people take ridiculously high doses of things like Robo and tons of other drugs, and not just the safest ones like LSD or shrooms, so a person taking an intense amount of MDMA isn't so far fetched.
I understand your point, but no, it says that because Wiki doesn't have a source attached to that specific category, doesn't mean there isn't such info out there.
Straight from the good old government...
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methylenedioxymethamphetamine.htm
it does show it's relation to stimulants via relation to methamphetamine, but there is more...
"Drug Class: Mild CNS stimulant, empathogen, entactogen, mild hallucinogen and psychedelic, appetite suppressant."
"Pharmacodynamics: MDMA is a phenylethylamine that has stimulant as well as psychedelic effects. MDMA is related in structure and effects to methamphetamine, however, it has significantly less CNS stimulant properties than methamphetamine. MDMA has a high affinity for 5-HT 2 receptors. Both S- and R- enantiomers of MDMA cause acute depletion of presynaptic serotonin (5-HT), depression of 5-HT synthesis by tryptophan hydroxylase, and retrograde destruction of 5-HT neurons following high doses. MDMA also increases levels of norepinephrine and dopamine. The MDMA metabolite, S-(+)- MDA, elicits more stereotypic behavior and is an even more potent neurotoxin than the parent drug. MDA destroys serotonin-producing neurons which play a direct role in regulating aggression, mood, sexual activity, sleep, and sensitivity to pain."
It also seems by this that MDA is a metabolite of MDMA, and as such while taking MDMA, MDA is introduced, which we both agree is a psychedelic.
point taken, so is mescaline, enhancing my position that phenylethylamines like MDMA quite closely related to a "classic" psychedelic.
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 09:58 PM)
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LiquidGlass
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The government is not the medical community and that is not the accepted definition within the medical community
The government? Really?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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sytar
Radiant



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You made your point and liquid glass ain't getting it. Thought I'd do you a favor and let you know what the audience is thinking, but if you're bashing your head against this wall for your own benefit alone have at it. Just thought i'd drop by and let you know: hey, everyone already sees that you won this argument.
-------------------- I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 5,288
Loc: Pee En Double You
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: sytar]
#19143111 - 11/15/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sytar said: You made your point and liquid glass ain't getting it. Thought I'd do you a favor and let you know what the audience is thinking, but if you're bashing your head against this wall for your own benefit alone have at it. Just thought i'd drop by and let you know: hey, everyone already sees that you won this argument.
How so?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
Psychedelic Aventurer



Registered: 07/07/13
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Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: sytar]
#19143124 - 11/15/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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haha sytar my point isn't to show I'm correct to the audience, or to show that I've won it argument, it's to remove misinformation. But liquid, isn't the FDA run by our government? Aren't they the medical community, along with the AMA, who dictate what drugs are legal or illegal or beneficial or not? The medical community is mostly run BY the government. Therefore a source from their medical people is certainly relevant.
Even if we disagree about legality with them, their physical description of the drug is not incorrect. Oh and my apologies if you want specifics, the American government, not The government....The American government controls the FDA and their doctors consult with the AMA.
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 10:11 PM)
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


Registered: 07/08/12
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Quote:
Godfather1376 said: haha sytar my point isn't to show I'm correct to the audience, or to show that I've won it argument, it's to remove misinformation. But liquid, isn't the FDA run by our government? Aren't they the medical community, along with the AMA, who dictate what drugs are legal or illegal or beneficial or not? The medical community is mostly run BY the government. Therefore a source from their medical people is certainly relevant.
Even if we disagree about legality with them, their physical description of the drug is not incorrect.
Many hospitals and universities where they do those types of studies are privately owned. That is quite a stretch to say that the medical community as a whole is the same as the government.
the FDA is not the medical community.
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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