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Offlines240779
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Do you think
    #19141885 - 11/15/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

ggggggggggg


Edited by s240779 (11/17/13 05:04 PM)


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Offlineolson
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19141939 - 11/15/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think if you live an active life with a  pretty packed schedule you can get away with using opiates once or twice a week
but  i think a lot of it comes down to genetics.

I cant say much for meditation as i haven't really tried that
but i will say that avoiding the situations that cause cravings is far more effective than trying to will your way through them.


--------------------

Kinesin, a motor protein, shuttling a vesicle full of cargo
such as glucose or even neurotransmitters across a cell.
This little guy struts along the microtubule using ATP as fuel.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19141957 - 11/15/13 06:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think so. A "spiritual" person is still a person who can become addicted to things. I don't think that their biology differs. There are many accounts of spiritual leaders who were addicted to drugs and sex.

On the other hand, I feel that people can use opiates without abuse. It has nothing to do with spirituality or their existential understanding of the world. It has to do with a person's willpower and their ability to control themselves.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlines240779
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: r72rock]
    #19141968 - 11/15/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

ggggggggggggg


Edited by s240779 (11/17/13 05:04 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19142175 - 11/15/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Be able to always stay within their withdrawal threshold. In other words, using an amount where they would never go through any withdrawals -- or only getting withdrawals taht are so mild that a cup of coffee would take care of them. And I mean using them as recreationally as possible within these limitations.

So, when I say "spiritually strong" I mean advanced in meditation...disciplined, that kind of thing.




I think opiate withdrawal is more of a physiological thing which one can't 'mind over matter'.  I'd suggest alternatives like Kratom, which seem to respectively have nil physiological withdrawal effects (though possibly some psychological withdrawal).


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

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Offlineeve69
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19142280 - 11/15/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

fuck you bitch fuck you bitch


--------------------
...or something







Edited by eve69 (11/17/13 05:48 PM)


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: eve69]
    #19142307 - 11/15/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Cute. Isn't the definition of abuse the act of becoming addicted? Many mystics and musicians use them occasionally (a couple times a year) without any problems other than minor hangovers.


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Offlines240779
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: Middleman]
    #19142396 - 11/15/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
Many mystics and musicians use them occasionally (a couple times a year) without any problems other than minor hangovers.





This statement is complete nonsense.


Opiates don't cause hangovers.
You do not know multiple mystics/musicians who use opiates several times a year.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19142423 - 11/15/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes they do and yes I do. I said once or twice a year. I guess we roll in different circles. :ohwell:


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19142438 - 11/15/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

fuck you bitch


--------------------
...or something







Edited by eve69 (11/17/13 05:47 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19142440 - 11/15/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Quote:

r72rock said:
I don't think so. A "spiritual" person is still a person who can become addicted to things. I don't think that their biology differs. There are many accounts of spiritual leaders who were addicted to drugs and sex.





I've read that meditation literally changes the brain. And I would imagine that there's a large psychic factor to withdrawal. I'm talking about how everyone has a different tolerance for pain. I'm sure this also applies to withdrawal: a form of pain. Meditation or martial arts or something can most likely significantly increase one's pain tolerance.





So what does it matter if the person's spiritual then? Wouldn't it just pend on their ability to handle pain? Even if it's through meditation and martial arts?

And maybe meditation changes the brain? But I don't think it means that they can just not have addictive personalities. If it was that easy, 10 step programs would be focused around meditation. I think it has more to do with the person than their spiritual practice.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlines240779
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: r72rock]
    #19142469 - 11/15/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
And maybe meditation changes the brain? But I don't think it means that they can just not have addictive personalities. If it was that easy, 10 step programs would be focused around meditation.





Now that is a ridiculous statement, and most people in this forum would agree with me.


Also, I think if you're advanced enough in meditation you can slash away at your inherent addiction potential, but alas the extent of power of meditation is a hotly debated topic.


Keep in mind Thich Quang Duc was advanced enough in meditation to burn himself to death while quietly meditating. That's kind of where I'm coming from with the idea of: the more spiritually/psychicly (that's psychic, as in brain) disciplined you are, the more resilient you are to entering withdrawal/handling withdrawal.


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Invisiblemutantmushroom
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19142540 - 11/15/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I use opiates probably for a week straight every 3 months or so. Its like my vacation. haha


--------------------
When you put the best effort you can into something, you’re bound to get something good out of it



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Offlines240779
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: mutantmushroom]
    #19142557 - 11/15/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Cool. And do you get a "hangover", which Rev. Morton says will happen? after first use? After the week? Has any withdrawal ever arisen?


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19142633 - 11/15/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Now that is a ridiculous statement, and most people in this forum would agree with me.





How is it ridiculous? And what does it matter if people on the forum agree or not? My point still stands. If it was that easy to get rid of addiction, why wouldn't they use to it cure everyone? It may work for some, it may not for others. Because of that, I don't think it has much to do with meditation as much as the person. If it was that helpful, of course it'd be picked up by recovery programs.

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Keep in mind Thich Quang Duc was advanced enough in meditation to burn himself to death while quietly meditating. That's kind of where I'm coming from with the idea of: the more spiritually/psychicly (that's psychic, as in brain) disciplined you are, the more resilient you are to entering withdrawal/handling withdrawal.




That's a case, not the universal. :shrug: Maybe it was meditation, or maybe it was something else. And my statement still stands. I don't think meditation helps with withdraw and handling the withdraw. It may for some people, but I think it comes down to the person and their personality more than anything else.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: olson]
    #19142814 - 11/15/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

olson said:
but  i think a lot of it comes down to genetics.



I agree.

I'm a strong believer in biological determinism -- meaning, that your biology pretty much determines your fate, spiritual and otherwise.

This kind of thinking isn't everyone's cup of tea.  Some call it "fatalism."  Some call it "elitism."  You name it and I've been accused of it.

Fact is, you can use the most powerful mind-expanding drug known to humankind, every day for the rest of your life, but if it's not in your biological destiny to have "The Experience," you won't have it.

On the other hand, you can take, say, LSD once -- only once in your entire lifetime -- and have the type of experience described by Leary and Watts in the classical drug literature. 

It's in the genes.

Our fates are largely determined by our genetic makeup.


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Offlinethatmonk
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19143588 - 11/16/13 12:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What is the point of that when there are so many other substances available that do support a spiritual practice. I was on opiates for six years for pain and can report they can cause you a lot of problems. Why risk falling into addiction? If you're going to fall into addiction, there is no spiritual strength that is going to stop your biology from driving you.


--------------------
...because life is fleeting.


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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: thatmonk]
    #19148921 - 11/17/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Imo if u r spiritually strong,whatever it means, you won't dabblenwith highly addictive substances as opiates are. I don't consider myself spiritually strong but I try to reduce/stop usage of highly addictive substances. I have success with stims and tobacco, now its alcohol's turn but it will be really hard for me I feel:-)
...
I like drinkin really, I like the taste of beer and the nice mood I get from it..

Never been a downers fan, only stims abuser...I feel beating addiction makes me stronger...

My 2p


--------------------
As above, so below. As within, so without. As we think, so we are. As we are, so we see.

Enjoy yourself, its later than you think.- chinese proverb
-----------------
Shroomery is closest to my anahata chakra, than everything/anything/anyone else

thedeadwalkk said:
Shroomery, you're the best; If you had a dick, I would deepthroat that shit and finger your butthole at the same time.


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OfflineLysergicX7
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: shpngld]
    #19148934 - 11/17/13 09:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This question seems like an oxymoron. A spiritually strong person wouldn't need opiates.


--------------------
“Everybody is fundamentally, the ultimate reality. Not god in the political kingly sense, but god in the sense of being the self – the deep down basic whatever there is. And you’re all that… only you’re pretending you’re not.” -Alan Watts

I think that in human evolution it has never been as necessary to have this substance LSD. It is just a tool to turn us into what we are supposed to be.”
― Albert Hofmann


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: LysergicX7]
    #19149125 - 11/17/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LysergicX7 said:
This question seems like an oxymoron. A spiritually strong person wouldn't need opiates.



Slippery slope there.  Plenty of critics say that "spiritually strong" people don't need marijuana.

Let people be.  Let people decide for themselves what they need and don't need.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19149742 - 11/17/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Let people be.  Let people decide for themselves what they need and don't need.




:thumbup: Simple and well said. :smile:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: r72rock]
    #19150157 - 11/17/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, opiates are physical not just mental. Abusing a drug isn't very spiritual anyways.


--------------------
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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: s240779]
    #19150554 - 11/17/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: Surely you jest! Meditators who seek clarity beyond bliss are not going to use opiates. Spiritual people are about cultivating Spirit, archaic for Consciousness. Opiates reduce consciousness to unconsciousness. Opiate use is diametrically opposed to everything that opiates represent: escapism, illusions, reveries, hallucinations, and most of all, addiction - the enemy of freedom.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19150628 - 11/17/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
:lol: Surely you jest! Meditators who seek clarity beyond bliss are not going to use opiates. Spiritual people are about cultivating Spirit, archaic for Consciousness. Opiates reduce consciousness to unconsciousness. Opiate use is diametrically opposed to everything that opiates represent: escapism, illusions, reveries, hallucinations, and most of all, addiction - the enemy of freedom.



Well, you can become psychologically addicted to alcohol, marijuana, mushrooms, LSD, etc.  Let's be careful and precise in our wording.

If you're pointing to physical addiction, yes.  Opiates can/will certainly result in that.

Physical addiction is a horrible thing.  But so is psychological addiction.

Both to be on guard against, and avoided.


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OfflineSupernova77723
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19150669 - 11/17/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No way in hell. Opiates bypass all levels of "spirituality". They can take the best person, and turn them evil.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: Supernova77723]
    #19150735 - 11/17/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Supernova77723 said:
No way in hell. Opiates bypass all levels of "spirituality". They can take the best person, and turn them evil.



Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating heroin and the like.
 
I'm simply suggesting that we all be on guard against addiction -- physical and psychological.

Both forms are treacherous.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Do you think [Re: s240779]
    #19150951 - 11/17/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
ggggggggggg




What the fuck - don't change titles - fucking pussy - you wasted all our work writing here - now I am erasing everything I wrote to you and putting you on ignore.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Do you think [Re: eve69]
    #19151010 - 11/17/13 05:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I used to think about questions like this when I was younger.

Now I realized that when I thought about questions like this, I was just interested if someone could develop the ability to use drugs without the negative side-effects or consequences. But there's no escape from the ontological reality that we're biological beings -- and drugs change that chemistry in one way or another.


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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: r72rock]
    #19156909 - 11/18/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Spiritually strong enough to ABuse opiates?  Or strong enough to be able to use them without becoming addicted?

Maybe it's mere terminology, but to me, abuse already implies lack of control and/or stability; something that a fully realized, spiritual person would not be struggling with.  Now, as far as use goes... all I can say is that there's no way of knowing the answer to that question as it applies to yourself (i.e. are YOU spiritually strong enough to use opiates without falling into addiction) until you're already potentially an addict.

Is satisfying mere curiosity worth potential slavery?  I don't know.  I've tried every class of drugs under the sun, and never really had problems with addiction until I blew that first line of oxycodone.  The downward spiral certainly has valuable lessons to teach, and as Blake once said, the palace of wisdom has a driveway leading from the road of excess, but no one's stopping you from driving in via the comfortable Middle Path.  :2cents:


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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19156956 - 11/18/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
:lol: Surely you jest! Meditators who seek clarity beyond bliss are not going to use opiates. Spiritual people are about cultivating Spirit, archaic for Consciousness. Opiates reduce consciousness to unconsciousness. Opiate use is diametrically opposed to everything that opiates represent: escapism, illusions, reveries, hallucinations, and most of all, addiction - the enemy of freedom.




I think your description of opiates is rather pointedly one-sided: opiates also represent, among other things: bliss, poetry, hypnagogic reveries, tranquility of the body and mind, and relief from suffering of all kinds, be it mental or physical.  There's a reason why the poppy has been treasured by human civilization for thousands of years, to be sure--granted all the downsides you mention do exist, naturally.  But there is a staggering list of geniuses who have found joy and wisdom from the feet of the Mistress Poppy; Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Marcus Aurelius, Charles Dickens, Kurt Cobain, Janis Joplin, Charles Baudelaire, William Burroughs, the list goes on... Some of these found eventual darkness and slavery from their use, yes.  Others found relief from all the mundane, incessant pains of this world and were able to drift far above these fleshy chains to exult their spirit in Pure Bliss via opium.

Your results may vary, as always.  :wink:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Do you think a person can be spiritually strong enough to abuse opiates without getting addicted? [Re: deCypher]
    #19157955 - 11/19/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's what I was gonna say, but I didn't bother. :nod: Seriously though, every time I've smoked tar I heard an entire concert in my head. It's never lost it's magic. So much great music has been inspired by that plant.

The key is to have one's psyche and relationships in order before experimenting and be willing to surrender to a single occasional experience.


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