|
Rufarian
Stranger
Registered: 10/20/13
Posts: 12
Last seen: 10 years, 14 days
|
How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph
#19139919 - 11/15/13 07:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The austerity fervor that’s seized Washington ever since the 2010 elections has lead to a sudden, steep drop in spending on building things. The collapse in infrastructure spending is illustrated in this chart from investment research firm BCA Research:

We passed 4 separate massive infrastructure bills under President Bush, then Obama was elected and suddenly we no longer needed roads according to the extremists in the Republican Party.
There are other factors, such as the Republican sequestration and the Republican shutdown.
Republicans can not be reasoned with the only way to fix this country is to vote out all Republicans in 2014.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: Rufarian] 1
#19140012 - 11/15/13 08:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
When a nation has debt to GDP at over 100%, over $17 trillion in debt, and annual $1 trillion plus deficits, how much infrastructure spending can even be done? Not much.
BOTH parties know that infrastructure spending is NOT an option, we are broke, this is what happens.
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: Rufarian]
#19140053 - 11/15/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rufarian said: The austerity fervor that’s seized Washington ever since the 2010 elections has lead to a sudden, steep drop in spending on building things.
Excellent!
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
sytar
Radiant



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 381
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19140229 - 11/15/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
You can afford plenty since the real interest rates on treasury bonds is negative. Imagine you went to a bank for a loan and they said, "we can loan you as much as you want, and for every $10 you borrow we will pay YOU an additional $1". You'd be some kind of collosal idiot not to borrow as much as you could. The debt level could become "problematic" in the future when yields on treasury notes rise, but it isn't a real problem; a sovereign issuer of currency can never go bankrupt (Greece isn't a sovereign issuer of currency, by the way). We could just inflate our way back to a reasonable debt to GDP ratio while, yes, reducing spending. But reductions in spending should observe Okun's Law and only come down when unemployment comes down to full employment levels so we so not suffer losses in GDP.
-------------------- I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.
|
Mush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#19140262 - 11/15/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Rufarian said: The austerity fervor that’s seized Washington ever since the 2010 elections has lead to a sudden, steep drop in spending on building things.
Excellent!
It worked for Europe!
Oh wait... no it didn't.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: sytar] 1
#19140270 - 11/15/13 09:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sytar said: You can afford plenty since the real interest rates on treasury bonds is negative. Imagine you went to a bank for a loan and they said, "we can loan you as much as you want, and for every $10 you borrow we will pay YOU an additional $1". You'd be some kind of collosal idiot not to borrow as much as you could. The debt level could become "problematic" in the future when yields on treasury notes rise, but it isn't a real problem; a sovereign issuer of currency can never go bankrupt (Greece isn't a sovereign issuer of currency, by the way). We could just inflate our way back to a reasonable debt to GDP ratio while, yes, reducing spending. But reductions in spending should observe Okun's Law and only come down when unemployment comes down to full employment levels so we so not suffer losses in GDP.
"real interest rates on treasury bonds is negative"
Not for the government, we pay interest on the debt.
"We could just inflate our way back to a reasonable debt to GDP ratio"
Sure, devalue the currency by -50% and the numbers turn out great.
Edited by qman (11/15/13 10:13 AM)
|
Me_Roy
Stranger
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 3,230
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: Mush4Brains]
#19140281 - 11/15/13 09:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, jeezus, OP -- it's not like China's long, massive boom had anything to do with infrastructure spending.
Also, you assume that infrastructure is anything but a black hole. What, do you think that roads, bridges, and rail lines can be used to move goods to market?
|
sytar
Radiant



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 381
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: Me_Roy]
#19140581 - 11/15/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
"real interest rates on treasury bonds is negative"
Not for the government, we pay interest on the debt.
"We could just inflate our way back to a reasonable debt to GDP ratio"
Sure, devalue the currency by -50% and the numbers turn out great.
=========
The interest payments do not outpace inflation. You don't understand what REAL interest rates are.
-------------------- I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: sytar] 1
#19140898 - 11/15/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sytar said: "real interest rates on treasury bonds is negative"
Not for the government, we pay interest on the debt.
"We could just inflate our way back to a reasonable debt to GDP ratio"
Sure, devalue the currency by -50% and the numbers turn out great.
=========
The interest payments do not outpace inflation. You don't understand what REAL interest rates are.
I understand what "real" interest rates are, you don't understand that the government pays interest on the debt, who cares if you think the rates are below the rate of inflation, what difference does that make?
Do you think having the 10 year US bond trading with a 5% yield in a 6% annual rate of inflation gives a government the green light to spend away without any consequences?
No it doesn't, it makes no difference, they are still paying 5% when they issue a 10 year bond.
Real negative interest rates are more important for investors, they tend not get too excited owning a bond that under-performs relative to inflation, so much so that they don't even buy them, so guess who does? The Federal Reserve and its printing press, is this the great solution you propose for economic prosperity?
|
Gorlax



Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 6,695
Last seen: 16 days, 12 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: qman]
#19141173 - 11/15/13 02:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Dude what are you even saying? Obama is liberal?!? Your argument really doesn't make sense. The most drastic decline is in the Obama administration!! LOL
Also what makes you think that Obama is pro infrastructure! All I really have seen him do is pass a bunch of laws that help poor minorities...
Quote:
We passed 4 separate massive infrastructure bills under President Bush, then Obama was elected and suddenly we no longer needed roads according to the extremists in the Republican Party.
that graph correlates with the 2001 9/11 attacks. This isn't 1930, building another hoover dam won't recover the economy...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: Gorlax] 1
#19141231 - 11/15/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The Keystone Pipeline and fracking would go a long way toward helping and they won't cost one single taxpayer dime.
--------------------
|
sweeper54



Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 2,865
Last seen: 8 days, 13 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: zappaisgod]
#19141395 - 11/15/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The Keystone Pipeline and fracking would go a long way toward helping and they won't cost one single taxpayer dime.
Go a long ways to line the rich pockets
The construction of Keystone XL, which would generate 3,950 person-years of work according to the U.S. Department of State, has a job creation potential on par with building a shopping mall or the campus renovations the University of Oregon announced last week.
Moreover, after it's built, Keystone XL will only employ between 35 and 50 people — and some of those positions will be filled in Canada. That's a small fraction of the long-term employment benefits one could expect from a shopping mall.
from
http://www.livescience.com/38735-putting-keystone-pipeline-job-numbers-in-context.html
Fox Anchor Martha MacCallum: 20,000 Jobs Is "The Low-End Estimate." On America's Newsroom, host Martha MacCallum said:
TransCanada Said In 2010 That Keystone XL Pipeline "Is Expected To Create Over ... 13,000 New Jobs For American Workers." In a 2010 press release by TransCanada, the company funding the Keystone XL pipeline, touted their connection with various unions and claimed they would "create over seven million hours of labor and over 13,000 new jobs for American workers." From the press release:
Going Down
Wash. Post: Based On TransCanada's Numbers, "The Number Of People Employed" Would Actually Be 6,500. A November 5 article in The Washington Post reported that TransCanada CEO Russ Girling "said Friday that the 13,000 figure was actually not a true job number, but actually accounted for 'one person, one year.'" The Post added that "if the construction jobs lasted two years, the number of people employed in each of the two years would be 6,500." From the article:
State Department: "The Construction Work Force Would Consist Of Approximately 5,000 To 6,000 Workers." The U.S. Department of State's Final Environmental Impact Statement for the pipeline stated that a "construction work force would consist of approximately 5,000 to 6,000 workers." The contractor who conducted the study had financial ties to TransCanada; the inspector general has launched an investigation into the matter. From the report:
Cornell University Global Labor Institute: Based On TransCanada's Numbers, "The Project Will Create No More Than 2,500-4,600 Temporary Direct Construction Jobs." From Cornell University Global Labor Institute's report:
Cornell University Global Labor Institute: "Based On The Figures Provided By TransCanada For The Canadian Section Of The Pipeline, The New Permanent US Pipeline Jobs In The US Number As Few As 50." From Cornell University Global Labor Institute's report:
http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/12/08/fox-still-pushing-discredited-keystone-xl-pipel/151455
I'm sure you can come up with other numbers
|
Mush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: zappaisgod]
#19141407 - 11/15/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The Keystone Pipeline and fracking would go a long way toward helping and they won't cost one single taxpayer dime.
The Keystone XL Pipeline that is said to create fewer than 50 perminent full time jobs?
Yeah, that would go a long, long way
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: sweeper54] 2
#19141462 - 11/15/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sweeper54 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The Keystone Pipeline and fracking would go a long way toward helping and they won't cost one single taxpayer dime.
Go a long ways to line the rich pockets
The construction of Keystone XL, which would generate 3,950 person-years of work according to the U.S. Department of State, has a job creation potential on par with building a shopping mall or the campus renovations the University of Oregon announced last week.
Moreover, after it's built, Keystone XL will only employ between 35 and 50 people — and some of those positions will be filled in Canada. That's a small fraction of the long-term employment benefits one could expect from a shopping mall.
from
http://www.livescience.com/38735-putting-keystone-pipeline-job-numbers-in-context.html
Ohhhh I'll definitely accept what this guy says as authoritative.
Quote:
Anthony Swift is an attorney in the International Program at the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC).
It is local energy and gets us away from the Arab oil tit. Cheaper energy always fosters jobs and I don't know why this guy is so cavalier about blowing off 4,000 man years of employment, whatever orifice he pulled that from is irrelevant. I suspect it is way low but it is still better than none. Further neither it nore the shopping mall will cost the taxpayer a dime and will in fact generate tax revenues. Are you so twisted that you would deny a taxpayer the right to make enough money to pay the taxes that pay for everything you want the government to buy you? Killing the goose laying the eggs that feed you .Quote:
I'm sure you can come up with other numbers
Why bother. They are all more than zero.
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: Mush4Brains] 2
#19141468 - 11/15/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mush4Brains said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: The Keystone Pipeline and fracking would go a long way toward helping and they won't cost one single taxpayer dime.
The Keystone XL Pipeline that is said to create fewer than 50 perminent full time jobs?
Yeah, that would go a long, long way 
Said so by whom? Drooling retards?
Construction jobs are never permanent unless it is a government project. Private construction starts a project and completes it and then the workers move on to the next one. That's how it works in Realville.
--------------------
|
sweeper54



Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 2,865
Last seen: 8 days, 13 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: zappaisgod]
#19141472 - 11/15/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Why bother when your wrong.
|
sweeper54



Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 2,865
Last seen: 8 days, 13 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: sweeper54]
#19141479 - 11/15/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Two different references in my post
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: sweeper54]
#19141488 - 11/15/13 04:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sweeper54 said: Why bother when your wrong.
Wrong about what?
--------------------
|
sytar
Radiant



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 381
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: zappaisgod]
#19141549 - 11/15/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I understand what "real" interest rates are, you don't understand that the government pays interest on the debt, who cares if you think the rates are below the rate of inflation, what difference does that make?
===========
What difference does it make? God you are ignorant. It means, in real dollars, we are not paying interest payments. Rather, the people we are borrowing from are paying us interest. Who taught you to care about nominal dollars?
-------------------- I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 day, 22 hours
|
Re: How Republicans are destroying the recovery in one graph [Re: sytar] 2
#19141665 - 11/15/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sytar said: I understand what "real" interest rates are, you don't understand that the government pays interest on the debt, who cares if you think the rates are below the rate of inflation, what difference does that make?
===========
What difference does it make? God you are ignorant. It means, in real dollars, we are not paying interest payments. Rather, the people we are borrowing from are paying us interest. Who taught you to care about nominal dollars?
Do do realize that rates of inflation can change dramatically over the course of 3-5 years?
Do you realize that if you issue a 5 year bond at 1% today, you have to roll it over in 5 years, and you might have to issue the bond at a much higher rate, maybe 5%.
The US keeps accumulating more and more debt, it's never payed down, ALL the debt gets rolled over at one point.
There are no free rides for very long, if you think borrowing under the inflation rate is so great, you must think the Fed as the buyer of last resort is also a great deal.
There are NO buyers of US debt when real rates are NEGATIVE, that is a problem, maybe we don't feel the pain today, but it's coming.
|
|