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LiquidGlass
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Re: Jaw tension and lsd [Re: seres]
#19141448 - 11/15/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
yes sytar, and MDMA, LSD, and other psychedelics effect dopamine as well as actual stimulants.
Citation please . . .
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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while not the best source, Wiki trolling isn't common enough I think to affect this page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruxism
"Disturbance of the dopaminergic system in the central nervous system has also been suggested to be involved in the etiology of bruxism.[9] Evidence for this comes from observations of the modifying effect of medications which alter dopamine release on bruxing activity, such as levodopa, amphetamines or nicotine. Nicotine stimulates release of dopamine, which is postulated to explain why bruxism is twice as common in smokers compared to non-smokers.[5]"
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LiquidGlass
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Quote:
Godfather1376 said: while not the best source, Wiki trolling isn't common enough I think to affect this page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruxism
"Disturbance of the dopaminergic system in the central nervous system has also been suggested to be involved in the etiology of bruxism.[9] Evidence for this comes from observations of the modifying effect of medications which alter dopamine release on bruxing activity, such as levodopa, amphetamines or nicotine. Nicotine stimulates release of dopamine, which is postulated to explain why bruxism is twice as common in smokers compared to non-smokers.[5]"
That source does not prove THIS statement you made:
Quote:
yes sytar, and MDMA, LSD, and other psychedelics effect dopamine as well as actual stimulants.
Do you have a source proving that LSD affects dopamine the same as stimulants?
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698051
"Moreover, the fact that LSD at 10(-8)-10(-6) M antagonized the inhibitory effect of dopamine (10(-7) M) and bromocriptine (10(-11) M) suggests that LSD acts as a partial agonist at D2 receptors on lactotrophs in vitro. Interestingly, LSD at 10(-13)-10(-10) M, the concentrations which are 10-1000-fold lower than those required to induce direct inhibition on pituitary prolactin secretion, potentiated the dopamine (10(-10)-2.5x10(-9) M)-mediated prolactin secretion by pituitary cells in vitro. These results suggest that LSD not only interacts with dopaminergic receptors but also has a unique capacity for modulating dopaminergic transmission. These findings may offer new insights into the hallucinogenic effect of LSD"
Why not do research yourself if you are so adamant that the chemical effects of LSD are in no way associated? No offense if you were just looking for extra information, but your response sounds like that of a troll attempting to refute something that, as someone else said up here, is discussed (and answered) on other threads. MDMA is known as a psychedelic and a stimulant, but stimulants aren't the only drugs known to release dopamine or serotonin. These chemicals are in fact in our bodies, and are known for giving euphoria. Does LSD give you more euphoria than a typical occasion? (given a good trip) Yes. That euphoria, by basic logic, comes from these chemicals being released in an amount not normally given by the brain. Therefore I "assumed" that that is the reason. According to this other source, I am correct that it releases/allows more dopamine release, which can cause bruxism, my first source.
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 07:13 PM)
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LiquidGlass
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Asking for a source to back up your claim is not trolling . . .
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
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Quote:
MDMA is known as a psychedelic
MDMA is not considered a psychedelic
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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When, as someone else said, this has been discussed and answered various times, kind of seems like it. Starting an argument on something already answered in order to stir up the audience is nearly the definition of trolling. People came to agreement and looked through previous threads for answers, which they found, while you gave a completely biased and unscientific reasoning for the same problem.
So MDMA therapy sessions are just a myth? The only people who indulge in it are ravers sweating their balls off to loud music or to stay up all night? No... Marijuana is even considered a low-grade psychedelic...
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LiquidGlass
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Again, asking for a source is not trolling. I asked for a source, you posted one. No torlling involved there.
What you are doing now is closer to trolling. Starting a debate that has nothing to do with the original post
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So MDMA therapy sessions are just a myth?
When did I say that? Good job at putting words in my mouth. Just because MDMA can be therapeutic does not automatically make it a psychedelic. And it is not, in fact, a psychedelic.
Also I never said anything about weed not being a psychedelic, but that really has nothing to do with what we are talking about
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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It has many things to do with what we are talking about. I am showing that not all drugs have only one classification, and that the various effects are being dealt on your body, like being flooded with dopamine, can be done by many things. You argue that MDMA is not a psychedelic, attempting to refute how I related MDMA and LSD. If your only definition is that psychedelics give hallucinations, then by this erowid Q and A, MDMA is a psychedelic, however little. Therefore my correlation between MDMA and LSD is correct, as they both produce hallucinations depending on dose and both release dopamine.
https://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=219
My point is that just like MDMA is not only a stimulant, LSD is not only a hallucinogenic. Therapy sessions (I doubt) will not come around from just the wonderful feeling of rubbing your clothes on MDMA because they feel so good, but from something much deeper, or more psychedelic. While visuals are infrequent on MDMA, the same can be said for marijuana.
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Godfather1376
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and how about psychedelic by the wiki definiton?
"A psychedelic substance is a psychoactive drug whose primary action is to alter cognition and perception."
IDK about you but MDMA sure as hell does that to me.
Furthermore from the psychedelic drug wiki page,
"The empathogen-entactogens are phenethylamines of the MDxx class such as MDMA, MDEA, and MDA. Their effects are characterized by feelings of openness, euphoria, empathy, love, heightened self-awareness, and by mild audio and visual distortions (an overall enhancement of sensory experience is often reported). Their adoption by the rave subculture is probably due to the enhancement of the overall social and musical experience. MDA is atypical to this experience, often causing hallucinations and psychedelic effects in equal profundity to the chemicals in the 5-HT2A agonist category, but with substantially less mental involvement, and is possibly both a serotonin releaser and 5-HT2A receptor agonist.[citation needed]"
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LiquidGlass
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Calling me a troll for asking for a source is what I was referring to. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
And while MDMA can have hallucinogenic properties it is not considered a psychedelic. And while LSD can have stimulant properties it is not considered a stimulant. Sometimes it can give people energy, sometimes it will have you stuck in one spot for several hours. It affects different people in different ways
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
Glass Blower


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Quote:
Godfather1376 said: and how about psychedelic by the wiki definiton?
"A psychedelic substance is a psychoactive drug whose primary action is to alter cognition and perception."
IDK about you but MDMA sure as hell does that to me.
Furthermore from the psychedelic drug wiki page,
"The empathogen-entactogens are phenethylamines of the MDxx class such as MDMA, MDEA, and MDA. Their effects are characterized by feelings of openness, euphoria, empathy, love, heightened self-awareness, and by mild audio and visual distortions (an overall enhancement of sensory experience is often reported). Their adoption by the rave subculture is probably due to the enhancement of the overall social and musical experience. MDA is atypical to this experience, often causing hallucinations and psychedelic effects in equal profundity to the chemicals in the 5-HT2A agonist category, but with substantially less mental involvement, and is possibly both a serotonin releaser and 5-HT2A receptor agonist.[citation needed]"
I agree MDA can produce some pretty psychedelic effects. MDMA is not a psychedelic.
I consider psychedlics something that if you take enough of it, your consciousness will be blasted from your body out into the cosmos, so to speak. You can take as much as you want, for the most part, without any ill physical effects. It can provide pure love, or pure hell. It can lift you up or completely destroy your world. MDMA IS NOT a psychedelic
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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Your willingness to argue about something you have no care to research yourself, and continue once evidence is given, resembles trolling IMO. Obviously you were extremely angry that I called you that, and I'm sorry if you didn't read the whole of what I said. "No offense if you were looking for extra information" is exactly what it means. Instead of legitimately discussing why you might think I'm wrong, you decide to make a claim that "MDMA is not a psychedelic" when you are yet to research this information yourself, obviously. It took no more than a google search to get this information I've cited for you, something you seem to not want to do, but require of others for their theory to be considered. Instead of blindly believing you saying "MDMA is not a psychedelic" or blindly arguing against it, I actually give proof of what I say.
Like I said earlier, for someone who want so much empirical evidence, you are yet to contribute any of your own, except your own assumptions.
That is YOUR definition of psychedelic, not the medical definition. Marijuana does not send you into another world, but you agreed with me that it is a psychedelic. So which is it?
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LiquidGlass
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Quote:
and continue once evidence is given, resembles trolling IMO
I have not continued to argue about it once you posted the source I requested.
You have not backed up your claim that MDMA is considered a psychedelic in the professional medical community. IT is just your opinion.
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Marijuana does not send you into another world
Wrong. THC in high doses can put people with low tolerances into another world very easily. Especially with dabs.
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That is YOUR definition of psychedelic, not the medical definition.
Yet the classic psychedelics such as LSD, mescaline, DMT, psilocybin, follow those guidelines
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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As someone who took a many year break before I got my medical card and used BHO to avoid plant material, I disagree completely. By itself, marijuana works on none of the same receptors as your "typical" psychedelics. Marijuana and MDMA neither are 5-HT2A agonists, which all those other psychedelics, even MDA, are. So if neither are agonists, where do we draw the line where something is psychedelic or not? Now I would like more information on why marijuana enhances visuals after taking a 5-HT2A agonist, if you have any cited source for that?
I sourced psychedelic drug wiki about MDMA, it isn't my opinion, it's the general consensus. Do you need the link too, can't just google it?
Here is a list of various psychedelics, from 5-HT2A agonists like LSD, to things like 5-HT agonists like MDMA, to CB-1 agonists (being cannabis).
http://ubron.org/groupdocs/List%20of%20Psychedelic%20Drugs.pdf
So if all of these are in different categories completely, how can we relate marijuana to 5-HT2A agonists, when MDMA is left out?
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Godfather1376
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By how it interacts with the brain, MDMA is much closer to psychedelics than marijuana. 5-HT is a close receptive "cousin" if you will, of the 5-HT2A receptors. Cannabinoid receptors are in a completely different class in this respect.
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LiquidGlass
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Quote:
Godfather1376 said: As someone who took a many year break before I got my medical card and used BHO to avoid plant material, I disagree completely. By itself, marijuana works on none of the same receptors as your "typical" psychedelics. Marijuana and MDMA neither are 5-HT2A agonists, which all those other psychedelics, even MDA, are. So if neither are agonists, where do we draw the line where something is psychedelic or not? Now I would like more information on why marijuana enhances visuals after taking a 5-HT2A agonist, if you have any cited source for that?
I sourced psychedelic drug wiki about MDMA, it isn't my opinion, it's the general consensus. Do you need the link too, can't just google it?
Here is a list of various psychedelics, from 5-HT2A agonists like LSD, to things like 5-HT agonists like MDMA, to CB-1 agonists (being cannabis).
http://ubron.org/groupdocs/List%20of%20Psychedelic%20Drugs.pdf
So if all of these are in different categories completely, how can we relate marijuana to 5-HT2A agonists, when MDMA is left out?
Well again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said THC was or was not a psychedelic. YOU are the one who brought up marijuana. While it does have some psychedelic effects, it is not a true psychedelic. It is considered a psychoactive.
And coming from someone who lives in the weed capital of the U.S., I have given many people dabs that came back hors later saying they were tripping balls.
And why bring up all od those other drugs. All I am saying is that MDMA is not considered a psychedelic in the medical community, which it is not.
That site has no sources except wiki, and wiki does not classify MDMA as a psychedelic, nor does any proffesional medical journal.
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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LiquidGlass
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You cannot come up with any legit source saying MDMA is a psychedelic because it is not . . .
This thread is so derailed
gotta love the shroomery where most of the threads degenerate into a pointless argument . . .
-------------------- Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery
  I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head - Ken Kesey
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Godfather1376
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Calling me a troll for asking for a source is what I was referring to. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
I asked, not accused. I asked, because for someone so eager for information, you seem to want to require source info from someone who voices a logical conclusion they came up to, but have none to give for yourself. You argue your opinion without any form of citation, yet criticize me when I did the same.
I satisfied both of your questions how LSD releases dopamine, and how dopamine causes jaw tension, using my relation to MDMA, and your only response was your opinion that MDMA isn't a psychedelic. That might be your personal opinion, but these sources, not my opinion, say different, that MDMA is just as psychedelic.
I then compare to marijuana, where you say that MDMA cannot send you "into the cosmos" like it does, but that is all subjective, and probably more based on set and setting rather than the drug. No one in a rave is going to have a deep experience on MDMA, but blind drug-therapy is known to be done with it. The "going into the cosmos" on MDMA might not be experienced unless you are in such a session.
Really? Putting words in your mouth? You didn't say that "high doses of THC" are psychedelic and send you in another world? Because that is exactly what one of your previous posts said. Are you back-tracking now?
oh wow, your from California too? What a coincidence, so am I. It means nothing lol. In many ways, Colorado and Washington are far ahead of us, especially in the winterizing processes in BHO.
I fucking QUOTED from the wiki page saying that MDMA is a psychedelic, how did you miss that?
In any case, whether we agree about the psychedelic class or not, this thread's question has been answered thoroughly. I don't care to argue farther with someone who is now refuting his own statements, with still not a single source to be found, while I have fought to try to show you something legitimate. Liquid, I'm sure you are a nice person, but you need to take advice from your own signature. I have listened to what you said, researched it, and found that the medical community (by as what wiki contains) disagrees with you. You however, despite my position, continue to think that you know all there is to know about these drugs and cannot possibly be wrong in your assumption.
I do apologize for asking if you were trolling, but you own lack of interest to research in a subject you continue to argue a point on led me to such a conclusion. I hope you can at least logically consider my stance, rather than just spout out again, without any proof, that "MDMA isn't a psychedelic".
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 08:45 PM)
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Godfather1376
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Quote:
LiquidGlass said: Wrong. THC in high doses can put people with low tolerances into another world very easily. Especially with dabs.
Quote:
LiquidGlass said: I never said anything about weed not being a psychedelic, but that really has nothing to do with what we are talking about
Really, putting words in your mouth....
Edited by Godfather1376 (11/15/13 08:42 PM)
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