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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Psychedelic debate with counsellor
    #19137664 - 11/14/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Background info i find important to share: so me and this guy have tons of respect for each other. really smart man. He knows that i am  'aware' person for being a former heroin addict. He knows my tripping history and always argued with me that "a drug is a drug is a drug" and even if its natural, it alters your state of mind and for that, he disagrees with me, although he hasn't taken them. He compliments me privately and tells me how smart i am blah blah blah EXCEPT for the drug taking. I then explain to him how i credit psychs and the plants for the knowledge that i share. Hes huge into science and studies. Hes a clean-cut VERY educated black man. And it seems like whats playing out is the "white junky suburban kid actually has something to teach the science world"

So today during the group session, i made a comment that prompted him to talk to me after the group because it was "so clever". Now remember this guy is dead-set on his scientific beliefs so for him to want me to explain something to him means im making ground. So we were talking about weed and how it negatively impacts your life...then we got onto WHY we smoke...well, when it was my turn, i said something along the lines of "To me, smoking weed can be compared to watching TV. Why watch your regular TV when you have a flatscreen HDTV" and i guess this blew his mind.

So we got into talking, and i noticed that he was getting defensive!!! We have had many talks like this, but never has he started to get defensive. He started backing his claims up by saying "well if mushrooms were beneficial im sure there would be studies done" then i started getting into John Hopkins studies and how its illegal to do studies. Then the conversation just kept drifting because he was getting so knit-picky with me. He started saying i was wrong because "cocaine is natural" so i obviously argued that.


I feel like im making ground because he eventually stopped me and told me "we need to continue this conversation soon, its intriguing" ...for some odd reason i feel like all this is going to end with me guiding these science geeks to psychs. I understand this is a long-shot, but i feel like its where its all heading.

the argument got into fine detail and lasted about 20 minutes. We were going deep; head on. I feel like im making serious ground here.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,581
Last seen: 12 hours, 10 minutes
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19137927 - 11/14/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lol: That's great, if he thinks that mushrooms would be studied if they had medical value. He obviously doesn't understand that the Feds don't want ANYONE to know the medicinal effects of weed or any other illegal drug for that matter. It's interesting though that he would be open to the idea


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #19137966 - 11/14/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He is so stuck on his science studies and what "drugs do to the brain" and how mushrooms "decrease brain activity which means they decrease quality of life" or something along those lines...then I went on to tell him about how our brain acts as a filter, and that's why it decreases activity and all that great stuff...but this guy will not stop pounding me with his science 'facts' so I will probably never get through to him.

But I must admit, I can tell im a thorn in his side. He KNOWS by looking in my eyes that I know what im talking about.

I feel like im in some experiment where some 'higher-ups' are trying to get this black science-worshipper to believe in the druggy white kid, I feel as though something is "unfolding"


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19138039 - 11/14/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:ooo:

pretty awesome that he is at least listening to you about this.

Hit him with some science facts of your own, and how they actually ARE doing studies around the world with psychedelic substances.

www.maps.org


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: hTx]
    #19138155 - 11/14/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah that's exactly what I am doing. You know whats going on? I think he just is coming to terms with the idea that not all drugs are the same, and some CAN help you with morality and whatnot. Hes just so used to seeing so many useless drug addicts that to think a drug can actually HELP is ridiculous. But like you said, hes listening. I honestly feel like the whole reason im in that place is teach this dude the path, or to simply just make him aware that it is actually possible to externalize "God".

Oh ya, and a lot of what we argued was exactly HOW psychs helped me with right and wrong, good and bad, positive and negative. I made it clear to him that of course you don't need psychs to teach you not to kill your mom, but what psychs do is teach you exactly WHY it would be wrong, or what lead up to that thought in the first place.

Its just frustrating because I know exactly where this dude is coming from, but he cannot know where I am coming from since he never tried the drug. Im beginning to help him understand that not ALL drugs are the same.

Upon further discussion I may of gotten a little deep. He asked me what the plants do for me...and I responded "they help guide my behavior an help me understand morality" and he laughed at the idea of me communicating with a damn plant. Touche, it does sound whacky, but Im sure he wouldn't dismiss it if he had some trips under his belt.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleTheMule73
Stranger
Male

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 1,797
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19138188 - 11/14/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like the tv comment for some reason. Nice


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OfflineKingKnowledge
Around
Male


Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 2,876
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: TheMule73]
    #19138349 - 11/14/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheMule73 said:
I like the tv comment for some reason. Nice




Cause its true


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: KingKnowledge]
    #19138695 - 11/14/13 10:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yknow I'm super interested to see if you change his point of view.  Its a crime that psyches got shut down when they did. There is so much potential in them for healing.  Its a shame the manson family and counter culture leaders like Leary kinda fucked stuff up for psyches in the media's eyes.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs


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OfflineMush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #19138701 - 11/14/13 10:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You should just tell her "you can't explain that" like you did to that fag on your show.. tell that bitch how the tide comes in, and the tide goes out and shit.  Comeon bill, you got this .


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Offlinemindgnome
Wanderer


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 816
Loc: Somewhere
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19138741 - 11/14/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You should direct him to "Psychology of the Future" by Stanislav Grof. Or pick it up for him and tell him he should read it. If he is truly a intelligent person on a psychology level he will read that book and be like "holy shit" after he is done. Then explain to him that hippies were the reason psychology backed away from psychedelic drugs. They were on the verge of breaking major ground and then all that shit in the 60's and 70's with hippies jumping off buildings fucked it up and the psychology community/governmental aid was like fuck that we aren't associating with this anymore. It would have flipped psychology head over heels. It would have been the greatest experiment in the history of psychology.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: mindgnome]
    #19138865 - 11/14/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'd argue that it was the greatest experiment in human history.  In reality our culture is only recently started to try to come to terms with the gravity of psychedelics, and the psychedelic movement of the 60's.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #19140438 - 11/15/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I feel like im playing out a Tao sequence...I represent drugs and he represents Science. Hes black, im white. Drugs/white people vs science/the world = our arguments base point


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19140474 - 11/15/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There isn't really a debate when you're talking to someone who is unwillingly to see the other sides point of view.

The psychedelic experience is pretty out there, its not even fully explainable with words, much less debating about someone with it. The only way to understand the experience is to try it themselves.

For me, its something I do once in awhile because I feel like it "resets" me... so to speak. Its very mentally liberating.

But a "Drug is a drug" to them.... riiiiight.... because caffeine is the equivalent to smoking meth. I've been told someone the craziest shit about LSD... and I just laugh at them.

:stoned:


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19140475 - 11/15/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, instead of making this a Drugs vs. Science thing, you could also try to approach the whole issue of drugs from a scientific viewpoint. That approach might work better with your counselor. It may also give you a few insights on top of your undoubtedly superior knowledge that you gained from the experience of being a heroin addict.


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: koraks]
    #19140545 - 11/15/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

True, upon further thinking it really doesn't need to be a "science vs drugs" thing...this kind of mindstate is what causes bloodshed all across the globe.

We can agree to disagree, but do you know what it really comes down too, according to just my perspective on this whole issue? -If you are afraid to trip, you will be more likely to argue against it- That's the bottom line, I believe

edit: if anyone has any hard-nosed science I can school this dude with, that would be cool. I was never resally into science besides how it works. Im not into the studies. I believe everyone is so unique that mass studies are useless, in SOME cases


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


Edited by Bill_Oreilly (11/15/13 11:27 AM)


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 days, 16 hours
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19140565 - 11/15/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Tell him its been scientifically proven that mushrooms turn people gay. :cookiemonster:


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,373
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: qman]
    #19140602 - 11/15/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If he's into the science, then show him the handful of clinical studies that have been performed on psilocybin.  However, you should be aware that the argument "there are no studies because its illegal to do studies....by the way, look at these studies" is not overly convincing.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19140666 - 11/15/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
edit: if anyone has any hard-nosed science I can school this dude with, that would be cool. I was never resally into science besides how it works.



Uhm...part of why I was suggesting looking into the scientific aspects was because you seem to be biased to an extent that it's nearly not funny anymore. What I was trying to say was that you might want to get a slightly more nuanced perspective on the issue of drugs. The truth is probably somewhere between you and your counselor.


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: koraks]
    #19140786 - 11/15/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I know what you were saying and it had nothing to do with what I said..

just because I asked for science thangz doesn't mean im not going to research my own science thangz..


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Psychedelic debate with counsellor [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19140793 - 11/15/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

oh alrighty


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