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OfflineSse
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Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19131170 - 11/13/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

reality is uncreated, unadorned, unelaborated, empty. The more you add to the blank page the more delusion/separation is created.


"Look straight ahead. What's there?
If you see it as it is
You will never err."

-Bassui Tokusho 1387


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/13/13 12:59 PM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19131278 - 11/13/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
I think im going to retire my conversation with you... nothing personal just not productive, subjectively.

I feel like you are projecting a lot onto me :hehehe: perhaps I just can't make heads or tails of the way you communicate... confusing to me.

I've found my synchronicity and that is really all I need to pursue... I'm not going to adopt some guidelines about what is right/wrong/superior... I have no desire to cultivate those distinctions. My cultivation is on equanimity.




equality is nothing, absolutes are for nothing value..

it is your choice to cultivate christian beliefs, like you are insisting that yourself existence is about everything existence the same, that all opposites are one same created life 

but still the way you mean to force the equality between right and wrong, especially now with what everyone know about life cruelty, can  not be free when it is against others freedom rights out of worse conditions of being in constant state of suffer for being forced to never be free


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19131695 - 11/13/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm having trouble understanding the way you write but I feel like you are projecting again

I don't have the answers. For myself, my own wellbeing, I cultivate equanimity. I try not to conceptualize or feed my internal programming. Constant cultivation of one-pointedness no matter what life deals. I'm reversing the conditioning that I have undergone since birth. I don't have a game plan or a set of rules/restrictions... its just going with the flow facing life circumstance by circumstance and greeting it with an even acceptance and appreciation for the unknown/previously created and coddled into what I had perceived delusionally and firmly. Life is to short to be strengthening and watering seeds of malcontent and then pin pointing those seeds naming them giving them a separate conceptualized entity. This point in my life I am realizing the emptiness of all of that. Much has been inherited or culturally programmed and much of it is unnecessary to me.

There are horrible things in this world that I might deem wrong but they don't have to cause a negative effect in me... and there is a lot I don't understand. I do understand things are temporary and people who have gone through horrible traumas often times grow from it and become stronger for it.. the ripple effects from many of these horrible situations can create perfect environments for love and unity/wisdom to thrive and spread. I don't know but I'm unlikely to cause an effect by reprimanding and becoming attached to the perceived/conditioned evils of this world... I feel I am better off facing the world with an equal stance... why allow the conditions of this world to carry me away?

minerals, earth, rain, sun; make the life.

plants, animals, humans

what effects the environment effects us

I am where I am because you are where you are

I am because we are

from the tiniest grain of sand to the galaxy 10 billion light years away

interdependent co-arising all around :smile:

"done is done"


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/13/13 03:16 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19133701 - 11/13/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
I remember from a while ago reading a line in one of Jed Mckenna's books that people aren't afraid of death, they are actually afraid of the self not being real, and that death is only a shadow of no self.

Now, when I ponder Icelanders definition of enlightenment; to have no death anxiety either conscious or unconscious, I wonder, and I believe Icelander does as well, whether this even possible to do while still living. After all, the biological drive for life is quite strong. However, I feel the important part of this definition is the lack of attachment to this life.

If fear of death is the impediment, then there is hard work involved. The self, which exists now, must give up attachment to it's own existence. There is something to let go of, to release.

However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.

If there is no attachment to this life, then whether one fears death or not is of no significance. Fear will come and go, like any other phenomena.




I know I'm late to the party but I liked the topic. I speak from the perspective of one with many subtle attachments but I think it is fear of death. I was laying in bed either last night or the night before and just breathing with some hypnagogic visions flowing around. I started thinking about the state of affairs on the planet. The sheer number of people. The unbelievable ugliness of so much of what is going on. To make a long story shorter, I wound up envisioning a meteor wiping us out. I started thinking about how, now, with our eyes always towards the heavens, tracking everything, we would know in advance that the end is coming. In my hypnagogic state this was very vivid. The anticipation very real. And more to the point, the fear. It was gripping. My mind started running through the scenario, playing it out,trying to imagine whether it would be sudden or drawn out, relatively speaking of course.

The defenses kicked in. The attempts to calm down, to enjoy what time remained. But it was this looming knowledge, go and do what? I will be dead and gone very soon. The very thought of trying to brush it off, to go about business as usual, was completely absurd. And yet, what else to do?

That's it, though, isn't it? I mean, its not necessarily a meteor but death is coming. And what else to do but go about life as though its just another day? Its the same absurd notion at the heart of it for me. Dropping attachments is relieving in the ways it helps me to continue moving despite this. Because I am impelled to move. Nothing is going to save me from that movement. That steady conveyor belt leading right to deaths door. So why bother trying to grasp at any of it along the way? It tends to serve for me only as a reminder that this movement cannot be stopped as it eventually slips through my grasp or is forcefully torn away.

No, I've found it far better to take what is there in its ever changing ways, acknowledging that it is all part and parcel of my death march. Its absurd in the highest and bizarre as can be. There is no refuge from the proverbial meteor headed my way. No forseeable way to dodge it. Losing attachments to the things along the way just helps to keep the journey as smooth as possible. Its still scary though and at times anything but pleasant.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19133844 - 11/13/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Word.

I also have a bedtime death anxiety related story. After I posted this I was laying in bed, and slipped into sleep paralysis. After having an obe dream-like thing, I was feeling really uncomfortable and wanted to get up. I couldn't because of the paralysis, and while I was fighting to move my limbs, the struggle put an image in my mind: being on my death bed. I'm sure the feeling must be similar. Wanting with all my will to get up and live, but being totally unable, getting dragged down by death. The powerlessness is scary. Eventually I came to, and I sat up for a bit, thought over this thread that I had just started, and concluded the same as you: that fear of death is at the core, and fear of no self is a by product, not the other way around.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19133965 - 11/13/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Those can be frightening, especially after a nightmare.

But something that makes me think that it's the other way around is the idea that the fear of death is learned. I think about how kids acquire this knowledge about death, and then grow fearful of it. The instinct seems to be built into us to some degree, like most animals, but other animals don't experience this terror of death because they can't construct a self to think about this terror or anxiety. (At least it seems to be this way)

Since it's learned, it's something that a self has to learn, hence a self learns of death. If there is no self, then there is no sense of death. Looking at deep sleep, there's no fear of death because there's no self to fear death. There has to be a subject to experience this fear of death, and a self (even if fictional) is a subject of it.

At the same time, and at least to me without negating a word of what I've said, I don't think the self can be overcome. As long as we're human, we operate in the world with egos and use them to live and think about things. A "no-self" is sort of impossible (at least to me) because of culture and the hardwired nature of humans. I think some people can get glimpses of it, like brief enlightenment and deep sleep, but those are usually quickly lived as people return to their self with the same fears and problems.

Even the idea of "no-self" is a defense that the self tries to invoke to ward of the fears. But the self still needs to exist to feel the fear, to use these defenses, and to reap the rewards of the defense.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


Edited by r72rock (11/13/13 11:36 PM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19134279 - 11/14/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
I'm having trouble understanding the way you write but I feel like you are projecting again






you cant use me to claim that all is one, it is clear that your ways are consciously through projecting yourself in anything as being everything the same

you believe that you are like all... this is wrong

what you are has nothing to do with anything else while all about you alone.. and if you enjoy not knowing everything then how your belief being everything justify your insisting will to talk about all as if you could know everything ?

this question shows the depth of wrong, you are consciously rejecting what you know for sure, which is not knowing anything
for the fanciful belief that you are everything too so you can enjoy talking about all as it pleases you ,,

you are forcing the reality that others don't matter to you, since no one exist, for actually your own pleasure in saying anything, so you as the one which exist ...

again, equality is zero so nothing while you are still out so existing proof yourself

freedom and superiority which are the always possible existence, are not nothing while the truth of superior freedom which exist and free superiority that could exist ..this is to existence fact in objective stance which has nothing to do with me nor anyone else ..

obviously we are not the same, forcing the concept of being the same is a lie

again It not about you nor about our conversation..it is only about else rights that you reject even though it is about true existence right that you insist to point as being yourself

whether freedom or superiority those two factors are always relative that is why there are a lot of conscious that could be never true so really to nothing existence forever while behaving as if they must be one with positive existence value, by lying to force the concept that existence is nothing too..which is obviously what you do mean ..like power wills of religions means over everyone and for every positive thing to possess ..


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19134828 - 11/14/13 05:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just fyi the world is a shitty mess and there is so much pain, but you... your life, your friends, your drugs and your sobriety, is everything... there is nothing else...


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
    #19134849 - 11/14/13 05:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

there is nothing else, as you said, so .... so nothing to share
but nothing existence is freedom to share or freedom is real that is why reality is not free, there is nothing to be real first...so you will have to try to be right too for free existence being out of nothing constantly, or accepting being nothing at all

you see the point when truth existence is freedom, that it doesn't matter anymore what else is there or what still is present from before... only free ways absolutely guarantee positive existence justifications right


Edited by absols (11/14/13 05:45 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
    #19134852 - 11/14/13 05:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

in your subjective opinion you mean. Yeah so what? If you are one of the unlucky then your suffering is all there is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
    #19134869 - 11/14/13 06:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
in your subjective opinion you mean. Yeah so what? If you are one of the unlucky then your suffering is all there is.




exactly ! but he means to get the share of another being right

like saying, sorry but you are only right, so all must get you to be right too...
hey, how do you know that there is no others being right when you know that you are not right ?? and if you can then go and be right yourself, you have nothing to do in pointing at my spot right ..

it is all about inventing arguments to justify the confusion with everything and everyone so evil powers would be the strongest possessors of existence values ..

when all is one, so any is not free and forced to be related to another thing, then who is the stronger?? the most creepy monster that can reject facts constantly and be by killing everything else


Edited by absols (11/14/13 06:04 AM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19135490 - 11/14/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I really think you are projecting again... jumping to conclusions

I could know everything? I don't know what life has in store but for now I cultivate abiding in not knowing.

obviously these words are teaming with subjectivity within you and its being projected onto me. Do you know how I abide in my day to day life? All these terms and words have built subjectivity within me as well so I choose not to perpetuate them; to not perpetuate the conditioning within me. Which conversations like these don't support hehe.

Words don't portray truth, truth is within us and it is silent/not conceptualized... words don't do anything justice.

Its awesome that you have found what works for you and what you find to be true, that's awesome. It shines through :smile: We are all built differently and hand fed this world of terms and conceptions at different rates and degrees. Our experiences through life have led us to what we feel is best suited for our lifestyles/understandings.

I am reminded...

Someone asked, "When one is confronted with disaster, how can one avoid it?
  Joshu said, "That's it!"
(The disaster lies only in the consciousness of "disaster." When you are in a given situation but do not define it, it is not "good" or "bad"; you simply react according to the circumstances.)


Someone asked, "What is my true nature?"
  Joshu said, "If that is what you say, what is it you dislike?"

(If you search for your "true" nature, you grant the existence of a "false" one. If you make no attempt to define your nature, you will find nothing in it that is not true.)

Passing by the main hall, Joshu saw a monk worshipping. Joshu hit him once with his stick.

The monk said, "After all, worshipping is a good thing."
  Joshu said, "A good thing isn't as good as nothing."

"Coming, all is clear, no doubt about it.
Going, all is clear, without a doubt.
What, then, is it all?"

"Life is like a cloud of mist
Emerging from a mountain cave
And death
A floating moon
In its celestial course.
If you think too much.
About the meaning they may have
You'll be bound forever
Like an ass to a stake."

"I look now at the very moment
Even the Buddha is dumbfounded.
  All turns with a swing.
I land on the plain of nothingness."

"The truth is never taken
    From another.
One carries it always
    By oneself."
    Katsu!


Japanese Death Poems


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19135576 - 11/14/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

everything is what we think it is, that's the truth :-)

and if we don't think everything just is, no definition, peace

just relax :-)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19135606 - 11/14/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I can dig it :thumbup:

"we are what we think.
all that we are arises with our thoughts.
with our thoughts we make the world."-Dhammapada


"the source of our perception, our way of seeing, lies in our store consciousness. If ten people look at a cloud, there will be ten different perceptions of it. Whether it is perceived as a dog, a hammer, or a coat depends on our mind - our sadness, our memories, our anger. Our perceptions carry with them all the errors of subjectivity. Then we praise, blame, condemn, or complain depending on our perceptions. But our perceptions are made of our afflictions- craving, anger, ignorance, wrong views, and prejudice. Whether we are happy or we suffer depends largely on our perceptions. It is important to look deeply at our perceptions and know their source."

"relatively speaking, there are right views and there are wrong views. But if we look more deeply, we see that all views are wrong views. No view can ever be the truth. It is just from one point; that is why it is called a "point of view." If we go to another point, we will see things differently and realize that our first view was not entirely right. Buddhism is not a collection of views. It is a practice to help us eliminate wrong views. The quality of our views can always be improved. From the viewpoint of ultimate reality, Right View is the absence of all views."

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh



--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/14/13 10:54 AM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19135661 - 11/14/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

it is absurd how you are insisting to point your finger at me, when I proved how it is all your way to project yourself on anything to say as being same one, how you mean to use the projection argument while you say loudly being the belief that you are of what we are so never free ...

for sure confusing everything is the best way to multiply the options and serve yourself of positive life.. but the point is not you nor me

the point is the truth how you react personally to a different opinion about what could be true, is negatively the point

when truth is never anyone, then you should expect to see your arguments being discussed objectively, you cant say what it pleases you to say about everything and get upset if another is contradicting your ways of seeing it all

people are conscious beings so we are not nothing.. then all matter as a common reality share, not only to everyone but also to its fact right objective existence when it is certainly not us, infinite small mortal conscious beings presence...

it is about ethics of means that you seem to lack


Edited by absols (11/14/13 10:59 AM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19135672 - 11/14/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"Unconscious transference"


I feel it is projection because you are telling me what I think, you are filling in many blanks with your own subjectivity.


interdependent co-arising all around


i'm not upset, i'm just not adopting it :p

truly you are wasting your breath on me

I feel a lot is lost in translation anyway

its our thoughts that conceptualize our experiences subjectively. Objectively reality is uncreated.


Edited by Sse (11/14/13 11:07 AM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19135776 - 11/14/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

projection is not about telling another what it thinks, here again it proves how you invent to use arguments about everything for yourself 

I didn't tell you anything more then the fact that you keep meaning to take everything for granted, which you keep proving in every other reply

projection is principally about subjective constant statements or wills indirectly reflected through the presence of others

defending everything is clearly the opposite of being subjective, like being no one and here it is how I see you no one so there is nothing to reflect, while I could be someone to myself that has never anything to do with everything in my daily life too

the thing is what you cant mean something but if it is about your life

so you cant understand how people could care about things without getting anything from, you don't believe in being conscious as a fact, you think being conscious for being and not for conscious value

as if you reason for animals beings when animals by definition are what can never be conscious about anything starting themselves being

what I am telling you here is not subjective because it is not about you, it points everyone that think being right in confusing themselves with everything.. which is most clear in religious type, being all one as you say for powers over all through the possession of everything rights

what I say here can not matter at all, so it says how conscious don't mean to matter, it is like you or others here, enjoying typing some posts about everything for nothing real.. but the difference is what I care about honesty and wont invent getting something out of it only because it is free ...


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19135843 - 11/14/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
"Unconscious transference"


I feel it is projection because you are telling me what I think, you are filling in many blanks with your own subjectivity.


interdependent co-arising all around


i'm not upset, i'm just not adopting it :p

truly you are wasting your breath on me

I feel a lot is lost in translation anyway

its our thoughts that conceptualize our experiences subjectively. Objectively reality is uncreated.




so if reality is true and thoughts are subjective experience, how are you the same then another and everything ??

and what translation? when my posts are clearly done at the second I am thinking about, contrary to you that keep quoting dead people talking about things that has never anything to do with reality of things

your way of imposing your freedom in pretending knowing the ends of everything is very offensive to any breath

so no I cant be wasting my breath by meaning to reduce yours, on the contrary, people like you are usually quoted for fresh air gains fast

this is the problem of the world too, what people like you keep inventing new forcing beliefs of positive ends instead of recognizing being wrong


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19136155 - 11/14/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"Since it's learned, it's something that a self has to learn, hence a self learns of death. If there is no self, then there is no sense of death. Looking at deep sleep, there's no fear of death because there's no self to fear death. There has to be a subject to experience this fear of death, and a self (even if fictional) is a subject of it."

This seems to make sense. Now I wonder, can experience exist without a self, or is a self needed to process the data? Is having no self any different from death? Deep sleep doesn't seem to be an experience to me. Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing.

I think if experience can exist without a self, then enlightenment can exist. Otherwise I doubt it.


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19136568 - 11/14/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
"Since it's learned, it's something that a self has to learn, hence a self learns of death. If there is no self, then there is no sense of death. Looking at deep sleep, there's no fear of death because there's no self to fear death. There has to be a subject to experience this fear of death, and a self (even if fictional) is a subject of it."

This seems to make sense. Now I wonder, can experience exist without a self, or is a self needed to process the data? Is having no self any different from death? Deep sleep doesn't seem to be an experience to me. Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing.

I think if experience can exist without a self, then enlightenment can exist. Otherwise I doubt it.




on the contrary, if the self exist then death cant be known, that is why we witness killing true existence facts or the claim of eternal life being the end for anyone, notion of heaven and hell

but if self do not exist, then there is never present thing, so death is a normal fact as it is the fact of being false, which would be all about robotics creations programmed to appear willing to exist ...

self is essential but on the negative sense of being self, which is freedom from everything else, when truth is positive existence then constant objective realizations are the exclusive way of constant plus left out, positive freedom which is not anything nor any mean

positively self is relatively existing, whether from reality that recognize objective else freedom positively, so the free in presence of else that don't ignore it would have to realize himself out of else beings, but also self exist for what positive truth exist, so any free sense is ultimately resolved in positive existing individual terms freely

this is why a lot of people mean unconsciously getting themselves in truth which is the enlightenment experience mean

when all what is realized freely without particular sense or means, showed up being far more existing and how free conscious could be pointed positively more then it could ever mean being positive to itself ... this is the enlightenment experience that every individual is after .. the sky rewards to right freedom existence

it is unfortunate that with such complex existence of infinite different positive things, the concept of things is too easily abused to serve a short fast end of anyone .. like the definition of self being a selfish materialistic mean while it is principally the fact of else recognition ..and when it is the positive fact of truth objective existence values.. that would surely become clear individuals out of superior freedom of anyone reality


Edited by absols (11/14/13 03:19 PM)


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