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Offlinesytar
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126342 - 11/12/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I post a systematic review from a scholarly source reviewing all of the empirical research and meta-analyses. Effectively, I provided a summary of all the empirical evidence. You all on the other hand post some random guy on CATO doing armchair economics. There is literally no empirical evidence that minimum wage increases inflation; your CATO link does nothing to further the empirical case.

I'm not better off "explaining" instead of posting links because there is nothing to explain. Economists looking for the negative effects have not found it. End of explanation - all that is left is to show you the instances in which they've looked and failed to come up with anything.

Yes, many conservative economists are not convinced. Their rebuttal so far has been, "if the empirical results don't match the theory, ignore the empirical results." There is a tradition in economics which has an ongoing feud with empiricism (the Austrians are an extreme and pathological example of this) and that hasn't changed. There are a few like Neumark and Wascherman who have tried to fudge the data, and I guess I commend them for at least being willing to deal in empirical data.

Point is, the economist has made perfectly clear that other countries (Esp. France and Britain) upped the minimum wage with little adverse effects. Scaremongering over effects which have no basis in reality is ridiculous.


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.


Edited by sytar (11/12/13 01:31 PM)


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Registered: 07/31/13
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126346 - 11/12/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com

an ad hominem i believe.

Do you have a valid argument against their position?




I'm sorry I don't believe an institute founded by people that are:

  • trying to destroy unions
  • trying remove EPA protections so they can pollute without consequence
  • funding the radical right astroturf movement
  • fighting against commodities futures oversight
  • trying to privatize social security
  • trying to destroy the minimum wage
  • funding the anti-choice movement we see across the nation
  • fund seminars and "scientists" that try to claim that climate change isn't occurring
  • financing ALEC (which tries to bring us Voter ID, nationwide stand your ground, trying to make it a crime to photograph animal abuse on farms, and promotes/writes legislation to bolster the prison-industrial complex)


So, once again, I'm sorry that you might call it "ad hominem," but really, you're doing nothing but engaging in "argument from fallacy."


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126425 - 11/12/13 01:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

since you never actually presented an argument how is it that i can engage in an argument from fallacy?


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: sytar]
    #19126437 - 11/12/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
I post a systematic review from a scholarly source reviewing all of the empirical research and meta-analyses. Effectively, I provided a summary of all the empirical evidence. You all on the other hand post some random guy on CATO doing armchair economics. There is literally no empirical evidence that minimum wage increases inflation; your CATO link does nothing to further the empirical case.

I'm not better off "explaining" instead of posting links because there is nothing to explain. Economists looking for the negative effects have not found it. End of explanation - all that is left is to show you the instances in which they've looked and failed to come up with anything.

Yes, many conservative economists are not convinced. Their rebuttal so far has been, "if the empirical results don't match the theory, ignore the empirical results." There is a tradition in economics which has an ongoing feud with empiricism (the Austrians are an extreme and pathological example of this) and that hasn't changed. There are a few like Neumark and Wascherman who have tried to fudge the data, and I guess I commend them for at least being willing to deal in empirical data.

Point is, the economist has made perfectly clear that other countries (Esp. France and Britain) upped the minimum wage with little adverse effects. Scaremongering over effects which have no basis in reality is ridiculous.



so basically your argument is that because some economists agree with your view point you should ignore the economists that disagree with you? Thats very intellectually honest of you. Its not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be. The nodric countries don't even have a minimum wage. They rely on cooperation between employers and workers.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126439 - 11/12/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
since you never actually presented an argument how is it that i can engage in an argument from fallacy?





You called what I said ("The Koch's very own mouthpiece for advocating economic sabotage") ad hominem, which doesn't automatically mean it's false. 

Now, I have provided a list of things the Koch Brothers are doing, which is why I don't believe a single thing the Cato Institute has to say, why did you ignore it?


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126461 - 11/12/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You tried to discredit the argument made by appealing to your distain of the people who founded the institute, that is a clear ad hominem.

I ignored it because there is no reason for me to respond to that list. I do not see all those things as being bad.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126519 - 11/12/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Once again, just because it is ad hominem, does not make it false.


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126532 - 11/12/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Who cares what the "other economists" think if their thoughts are guided by a complete disregard of the evidence? The burden of proof rests with those attempting to make the claim. Bring empirical evidence to bear on the claim or stop making it - don't argue from authority ("some economists still think minimum wage is bad.")


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: sytar]
    #19126654 - 11/12/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Minimum wage prices out unskilled labor. It prevents low skilled laborers from bargaining to allow them to work and gain vital skills necessary to advance in the work place.
This video is a good summary of the concept


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126670 - 11/12/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Abolition of slavery prices out unskilled labor as well.


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: psyconaught]
    #19126732 - 11/12/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)


Quote:

psyconaught said:
Minimum wage prices out unskilled labor. It prevents low skilled laborers from bargaining to allow them to work and gain vital skills necessary to advance in the work place.
This video is a good summary of the concept






Good job on Introduction to Economics level reasoning but I don't think you understand the definition of empirical evidence. You're reasoning a priori, which is a hop and a skip from what some might call "making shit up".


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126733 - 11/12/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Abolition of slavery prices out unskilled labor as well.



Do you have a source for that claim?

Even if it's correct, of course, there are plenty of compelling and independent reasons to abolish slavery despite any economic downsides to it.

The same can't really be said of a minimum wage, though.


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: Enlil]
    #19126748 - 11/12/13 02:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Smith claimed that wage slavery was cheaper than chattel slavery in Wealth of Nations. I found his reasoning compelling. Google to find the section he discusses it if you care (around page 120).


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I post from my phone. Excuse the typos and autocorrects.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: sytar]
    #19126750 - 11/12/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sytar said:

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Minimum wage prices out unskilled labor. It prevents low skilled laborers from bargaining to allow them to work and gain vital skills necessary to advance in the work place.
This video is a good summary of the concept






Good job on Introduction to Economics level reasoning but I don't think you understand the definition of empirical evidence. You're reasoning a priori, which is a hop and a skip from what some might call "making shit up".



see unlike you i can argue my position :shrug: you have yet to argue your point of view besides appeals to authority.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: sytar]
    #19126758 - 11/12/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
Smith claimed that wage slavery was cheaper than chattel slavery in Wealth of Nations. I found his reasoning compelling. Google to find the section he discusses it if you care (around page 120).



i don't care what smith claims. Even if slavery comes out to be cheaper (which is suspect considering how expensive slaves were), the production level most certainly were not higher with slavery.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: Enlil]
    #19126793 - 11/12/13 02:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Abolition of slavery prices out unskilled labor as well.



Do you have a source for that claim?

Even if it's correct, of course, there are plenty of compelling and independent reasons to abolish slavery despite any economic downsides to it.

The same can't really be said of a minimum wage, though.




So there aren't any compelling and independent reasons to abolish minimum wage, despite any economic downsides to it?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126801 - 11/12/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not that I can think of.  No one has presented one in this thread, either.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: sytar]
    #19126803 - 11/12/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
Holy shit I had no idea this forum was filled with so many brain dead conservatives! Get a load f the guy with the Obama tripled the deficit image, like he doesn't know the FY2009 budget was signed by Bush. And get a load of everyone in this thread who hasn't read the Card and Kruger study or the follow ups like Lester, Dube, an Reich. Minimum wage doesn't cause inflation. Go ahead and google CEPR Minimum Wage Employment & The Economist Minimum Wage Evidence Mounting.



Here we have another child who just came of Shroomery age that does not know that Congress (Dem both sides for 2009) sets the budget and not the President.  Also, Bush was nobody's idea of conservative. 

Your two links cite moderate increases as having no effect.  What does that mean?  Further, a federal minimium wage is idiotic, as I have clearly established, due to disparate costs of living.  You have to make a shit load more money to live in SF than you do to live in Fargo.  A minimum wage is none of the federal government's business.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: sytar]
    #19126812 - 11/12/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sytar said:
Smith claimed that wage slavery was cheaper than chattel slavery in Wealth of Nations. I found his reasoning compelling. Google to find the section he discusses it if you care (around page 120).



Why are these tyros so lazy?


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Offlinesytar
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Re: Looks like Obama is trying to up the minimum wage to $10 an hour [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19126912 - 11/12/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why won't he spoonfeed me everything? So lazy! I'm on a phone but have no obligation to educate. I'll give you links when I get a check. Until then, do your own damn research and stop begging for handouts. You should be grateful I gave you a lead, not bitching about how you're entitled to more!

2009FY budget was passed before Obama even took office. Can you not read your signature?  Not to mention that the 2009FY budget was proposed by Bush, but that's besides the point since your sig is wrong no matter which way you slice it. That signature is so dumb it makes me think that you're one of those people who don't know the difference between the debt and the deficit. The deficit tripled around the global financial crises, as tax revenues slumped to new lows? I'm shocked.


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