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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19122432 - 11/11/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
Whats cool about the way I think(after that stroke-like event), since I can't form complete sentences in my mind or very well with my voice it may be easier for me to say fuck it and have complete silence in my mind. I just have to deal with my sensations and feeling aspect(and the nonverbal thought) but verbally I'm lucky so to speak.

that's kind of confusing to say since im using words now but this is the best way I can get it out of me coherently. Within in my mind/vocal cords I'm lucky to speak a complete sentence especially in my mind.




sorry to hear about the stroke. have you ever read stroke of insight?


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19122814 - 11/11/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's weird how the human mind tends to grasp onto ideas, and your post reminded me of that.

Throughout my life, and by extension I assume other's lives, we need to have these solid ideas of what's going on around us. It gives us a sense of security and makes us feel good. I don't think it matters what it is that much, what's more important is the role that it plays.

For example, when I read the Denial of Death at first, I loved it. It gave a run down of why humans behave the way that they do, and it gave me this "ahh" feeling. Kind of like, "finally, this is what motivates me and everyone else." But then I realized that I was using these ideas to construct a self that was in on the goods and knew what was going on (so to speak). I was using these ideas to ground myself and feel secure, like I had an idea of what's going on in the world or why things are happening.

During meditation, I always notice myself thinking, "What was that important little quote I heard? Oh yeah..." Even outside meditation, I think I'll read something profound, and then later on throughout the day, I'll forget it, and think to myself, "Shit, what was so important? What's this all about?" I'm constantly trying to give myself ground. Most of my thoughts in my life are me trying to cling to something, whether it be an idea of who I am, people I want to talk to, what I think is important (values), responsibilities, things I think that are cool... it's just like trying to remind myself that I'm a person.

Now I'm at a point where I think all there are are illusions and myths that we tell ourselves to feel good. We reinforce these stories about ourselves to say that there is a self and that we're real. And I think the reason death scares us is because death reminds us that we don't have a self -- or even if we did have a self that we've constructed and told ourselves and reinforced it over and over, it'd be gone. People seem to be okay with death if they believe that the self goes on in some way, but if there's no self that goes on, then what the fuck would an afterlife even mean? It seems to be a fear of losing this self. The reasons animals don't have death anxiety (or at least perceived) is because they can't construct this idea of a self into a story and think about it.

At least now, I'm convinced that the best that we can do is live an illusion and convince ourselves that our illusion's true. We need this fictitious self to operate in the world and to live. We need egos. I feel a major reason why I've drifted towards Buddhism (at least Zen) is because it acknowledges that we're hopelessly deluded, and to just try to be as happy as possible with that. In Zen, it's said that Enlightenment and Delusion are the same thing.

I see people talk about dropping the self and ego, and that without the self or ego, there's no fear of death; yet, most of these people I see doing that then become attached to this "self that's no-self." They hold onto those ideas and constantly reminds themselves of them whenever it comes up. While I agree with their statements, I don't think it can really be lived. They're just constructing this self of no-self, and I guess I just think that's the way humans are wired. Maybe that works for some people, and maybe it's good.

Even this post that I'm typing screams of this desperation to ground myself and to let me feel like I "know something" about my existence and humans, and that what I'm typing is true. I'm typing this out to try and convince myself that I'm somewhat real and have a self who experiences things. Without this self, it just seems like an empty void. :shrug:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19122958 - 11/11/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yup :-)

always need grounding, didnt get to take my walk in nature today yet

the mind often wants something
instead of realizing it has everything it needs

luckily I still got nature :-) its always there and free

just walk/sit, expect nothing, let meditation come automatically

I just dont know which meditation to learn... got yoga recommended but heard it is mostly for girls :wink:
and TM, but sometimes it sounds a bit like a cult, with ayaveda,complete abstinence often etc.
finally there is also the pricetag, TM isnt cheap and I got hardly no money, just wanted to hear opinions on which meditation techniques are good

gotta need to clear the mind of preconceptions before taking meditation I guess :wink:

meditation comes naturally to me in nature, but not at home as I am very sensitive to noise
need some good training in that... reducing noise sensitivity
but Im about to move soon, seems to be the solution I found after listening to myself


Edited by lessismore (11/11/13 08:16 PM)


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19122997 - 11/11/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Beginners Mind- Shunryu Suzuki

It's a wonderful read on meditation and a way of life IMO.

You enjoy nature, Suzuki's teachings go hand in hand with it :thumbup:

Swamij.com is another wonderful resource for meditative practices..It's overwhelming at first but is a nice place to visit every so often.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: cez]
    #19123032 - 11/11/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I always feel sorry for people who use their mind to tamper with their mind to undo their mind as if.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: eve69]
    #19123064 - 11/11/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: cez]
    #19124749 - 11/12/13 03:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.





Trading one program for another?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19125353 - 11/12/13 08:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
Quote:

absols said:
for me it is much better to not speak especially in mind, because that kills yourself
you are your mind source so even if you mean to get away from emotions or sensations it is only by being objectively real that you can act as positive source, which would justify speaking about some things extra out of yourself that you might care about or hate ...

we are forced to look much more inferior than what we actually are, in all ways we are constantly here to get trapped and killed in depth of our individuality rights and values




I saw some of the posts here and it got me wondering...

some say to think / question everything, think all the time
some say to not think at all
some say to think only when necessary

what is best and why?

I believe I am not my thoughts, but the one controlling them

a balance between thoughts/no thoughts is probably the best thing to have
being able to feel at ease with ones thoughts at any time
without needing anything
being able to stop thinking when needed

being able to live without living as thoughts/emotions/desires all the time
but without complete abstinence either?

the golden middle way...  nature,simple lifestyle,meditation as needed ?

I realize that my thoughts have no control over me, but also that I become my thoughts the more that I think and they can take control easily, there seems to be no way around that
meditation can help it, but much dedication is needed, especially in a stressing life situation
so I am more an "only think when needed", meditate as needed, nature/simple lifestyle person :wink:

once I notice my thoughts taking control of me its too late
even with meditation it can happen, takes long to master....

I try to observe my thoughts too... gets easier with time, and less and less thoughts

all my previous problems were caused by living too much as my thoughts I believe, so that is why I ask...
do you think living too much as thoughts is bad?
and what do you consider a good way to achieve balance?

any meditation techniques any of you can recommend that has had a positive impact on your life?
have only tried meditating my own ways, in nature, with crystals, by feel etc., but would like to learn meditation




your sense of nature is wrong according to me, nature is evil life always meaning to lie and kill being rights to force all of us as inferior dimension of existence, undirectly nature mean that there is not  any positive truth because  ultimately nature live by considering herself being the truth

i am more for mild relaxations methods like reflexology works for me, but meditations are all to lies and creations life so in a system that i cant belong to
i am more objective, as meaning clearly how existence is only the objective constancy of anything, how existence is about what is already real absolutely hundredpercent

so the more i am realizing my true abstract self objective reality right, the more i am the free right sense out of everything as being nothing at all but positive self source

meditations mean undirectly the median of all life, like to realize a zero to all creations forces, but that do not exist it is fake

the true zero exist, and it is a very necessary sense for abstract conscious right sense of being free as nothing to all and never for, the conscious of the right separation between everything and being, the being is the present while everything is never present

the present is what matter it is what exists, and freedom is right existence superiority in positive truth ways, so the true zero sense is very essential while it is subjective to each individual freedom of being, because it is the zero of your meaning wills or willing means too, so zero to yourself identity, then it must be subjective but essential to realize oneself objective right through linear sense of positive truth

yes i think that thoughts are wrong identity, it is always to others

what is true is only objective even you in being free you are actually objectively real

so ideas are relative others that dont want to be true so never realize objective existence rights, and usually thoughts are all to inventions of beings by abusing others presence in meaning to possess them as things property

i know you cant be that in anything, but you can accept others being different like me, so you can be relative in your positive ways of beings without changing that

evil or wrong is not about not being true like it is said, anyone is actually true relatively
and truth is never present that is why everyone is insolent mean to abuse truth knowledge by stepping on others rights to be through that knowledge too and equally right ... you know...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19125360 - 11/12/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Watch out! If you disagree with him too vigorously he'll put you on ignore. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
    #19125431 - 11/12/13 08:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i like that, you know ... being ignored
because i only deal with what iam  alike to care about so i also dislike what doesn't like me, it is right not only logical or normal

we enjoy our freedom to do things positively, but we care a lot more for who cares about our conscious freedom to be positively still existing fact, so what talk to us in free positive ways, as true constant fact

what matter in facts and in truth is constancy absolute constancy no change at all, this is the real sense of freedom base that matter a lot to everything and anyone


Edited by absols (11/12/13 08:45 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19125595 - 11/12/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well 50 people have me on ignore and he's one of them.  I'm proud of every notch on my gun. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19125654 - 11/12/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

he who accepts got no problems
he who looks inside himself never gets sick, for he knows what he does wrong ;-)

and he is the same inside he has always been
but it must be nice to get that inside to reflect to the outside

death wouldnt change him
no self is closer to the natural state than a self IMO

and yes truth is relative, but personally I believe in universal truths too
the heart speaks the truth


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
    #19125682 - 11/12/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well 50 people have me on ignore and he's one of them.  I'm proud of every notch on my gun. :satansmoking:




well this is also my point, i am objective so i never mean to kill anyone abstractly speaking of course, but i could mean to kill wrong things by saying it clearly

but it is funny how is what everyone hates, and hates me more for

as if it is known that anyone is only by taking advantage of what it knows existing, knowledge abuse, so killing wrong things is perceived as killing what they are positively what they care about consciously

while i am not killing anyone, when i never touch freedom of being
i never touch what you might say without using anything, by speaking clearly of yourself

while everyone else jump to abuse what it is perceived as being a  weak move, and enjoy insulting anyone who is not leaning on any force to say something

i wanted to let you have the last word here, because your word is more living, you know better what is been talking about here while i am making up everything, i invent how it could sound more logical then the truth, just to pass time usefully for me .. we are losers we have no better to do unfortunately ...


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
    #19125745 - 11/12/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

cez said:
Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.





Trading one program for another?



Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

cez said:
Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.





Trading one program for another?




Perhaps.  Whatever feels comfortable.
Everything is constantly changing including our minds..Why not try and guide mine to change for the better?

If I kept the programming inherited to me from my father, I don't think id have any ambition/passion or sense of self-worth.
Now they're all irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but at this moment they're all that matter to me.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19125950 - 11/12/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

not 100% sure what it was but it messed me up the doctors weren't to helpful... they told me over email/phone it could have either been a stroke or a seizure and that was that, no tests no nothing but at that point I guess they already had preconception of me due to previous doctors and I had preconception of them... so I just hid in my shed for a year+ eating canned foods slowly recovered use of my right arm and am just now(not literally just now but this past year or so) starting to be able to do more intricate things with my right hand but im still pretty messed up likely from a few different things combined.

The reviews of that book sound very inspiring though, I may check that out someday if I get some money in my pocket. Ty for the rec :sun:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/12/13 11:45 AM)


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
    #19125973 - 11/12/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

cez said:
Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.





Trading one program for another?





sounds about right, another form of conditioning is what it seems to me. I like it though :yinyang2:

"we are what we think.
all that we are arises with our thoughts.
with our thoughts we make the world."-Dhammapada

"Ten thousand flowers in spring, the moon in autumn,
A cool breeze in summer, snow in winter-
If your mind is not clouded by unnecessary things,
this is the best season of your life." -Chinese poem


Edited by Sse (11/12/13 12:28 PM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19126222 - 11/12/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

sorry but what you are replying with others sentences and not yours dont serve your meaning will to prove the positive value of thoughts .. if you appreciate those quotes meanings then how cant you realize it present from yourself being ?

i mean to prove how thoughts are always about negative others as they are not present because never real, so they need in a way, to make others negative in order to mean their freedom out of their own fact negativity..

i challenge you to say one thing that could point the value of thought..


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19126585 - 11/12/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the only negative/positive value in this world that I see is created subjectively

"if you appreciate those quotes meanings then how cant you realize it present from yourself being"

i'm confused by that sentence, what is there to realize?

"i mean to prove how thoughts are always about negative others as they are not present because never real, so they need in a way, to make others negative in order to mean their freedom out of their own fact negativity.. "

all thoughts are making thoughts negative?

value of thought; understanding?

grist for the mill

"Give up thinking as though not giving it up. Observe techniques as though not observing." -Bruce Lee

"Let yourself go with the disease, be with it, keep company with it- this is the way to be rid of it." - Bruce Lee

"cyclic existence and nirvana are inseparable" -Tibetan book of the dead
"arising and liberation occur simultaneously" -Tibetan book of the dead



"we are what we think.
all that we are arises with our thoughts.
with our thoughts we make the world."-Dhammapada
(Though the world is objectively uncreated)


Edited by Sse (11/12/13 02:34 PM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19126742 - 11/12/13 02:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

you cant be understanding anything in being alone thinking, it is all about you the present thing and those thoughts associations that are to others sources using your head for

understanding something is only by objectively recognizing its existence fact equal to yours, then a relative reality of its presence in truth is subjectively seen out of oneself being relative too

that is how the word under standing, is pointing clearly a reality of someone giving to another a superior value of being present stand

now about thoughts, they are known being the source of imaginations and creative skills, so what by definition is never real so never to anything existing to understand

if you mean being conscious, it is totally different thing

conscious has nothing to do with thoughts, conscious subjectively is about the true self being, because your instants awareness are the most close to being absolutely then any relativity of your physical reality

and objectively conscious is only and exclusively by realizing the existence of superior realms, which gives the effect of being constantly positively
realizing objective superiority, which is always the real fact of objective existence, is what actualize truth superiority as being a present thing, from that moral conscious free move that would become as a result a constant positive still consciously, as relatively certainly being true actual present superior positive end,  that would exist really when it is free positive source of anything even oneself relativity anywhere


Edited by absols (11/12/13 02:48 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19126816 - 11/12/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

understanding; to perceive the significance of; grasp

comprehending intended direction

I would say thought still has value. It wouldn't be very enlightening or wise to sit in pure consciousness while your house burns down around you as the flames begin to lick your toes and cook your flesh. I guess that's still based on personal tastes and opinions perhaps objectively it makes no difference but I think that I would still use my faculties of thought and appreciate them even if I were an enlightened being. The conditioning and mental apprehension may no longer be an issue to an enlightened being so their thoughts could prove to be of value.. I don't really know the grand scheme though, value is also subjective to my point of view, but can be made subjectively wholesome; that many could agree upon, and then perhaps produce non beings :smile:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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