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Crystal G



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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
#19123415 - 11/11/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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psyconaught said: those instances of course they cost a lot of money. Because they had big fat government contracts that would pay anything. Things only get out of hand when government gets involved. Greed is what drives every human, the profit incentive. Capitalism simply exploits this most basic of human motivators and makes it benefit the rest of society.
Okay, let me ask you a question. Exactly how were they supposed to write the contract then? Clearly they should have had some kind of LAW that would have prohibited them from overcharging the US government. But wait--that wouldn't be the free market! So again, I ask you, how should have that contract have been written?
Since you are clearly about economizing everything, are we supposed to pay people to go to war for us? If so, how is that any different from paying the government to do it? And how would paying a corporation be any cheaper than paying the government? How would we prevent them from using us and overcharging us in the same way that they did the government, without breaking laissez-faire capitalism?
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
#19123430 - 11/11/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?
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Konyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
#19123443 - 11/11/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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psyconaught said: not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?
11.50
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
#19123444 - 11/11/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: those instances of course they cost a lot of money. Because they had big fat government contracts that would pay anything. Things only get out of hand when government gets involved. Greed is what drives every human, the profit incentive. Capitalism simply exploits this most basic of human motivators and makes it benefit the rest of society.
Okay, let me ask you a question. Exactly how were they supposed to write the contract then? Clearly they should have had some kind of LAW that would have prohibited them from overcharging the US government. But wait--that wouldn't be the free market! So again, I ask you, how should have that contract have been written?
Since you are clearly about economizing everything, are we supposed to pay people to go to war for us? If so, how is that any different from paying the government to do it? And how would paying a corporation be any cheaper than paying the government? How would we prevent them from using us and overcharging us in the same way that they did the government, without breaking laissez-faire capitalism?
they could have a predetermined rate thats agreed upon instead of wiring blank checks. For what its worth i don't think contractors should have been over there in the first place
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psyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
#19123456 - 11/11/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Illyabo said:
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psyconaught said: not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?
11.50
great. Where exactly in your ass did you locate that number? Did that account for the extreme difference in cost of living between cities? or what about children? if two people are working the same minimum wage job but one has 4 kids should he get paid more?
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Crystal G



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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
#19123464 - 11/11/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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psyconaught said: they could have a predetermined rate thats agreed upon instead of wiring blank checks. For what its worth i don't think contractors should have been over there in the first place
How would they know how many years they were going to be in war? The government isn't psychic.
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Crystal G



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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
#19123478 - 11/11/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
Illyabo said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?
11.50
great. Where exactly in your ass did you locate that number? Did that account for the extreme difference in cost of living between cities? or what about children? if two people are working the same minimum wage job but one has 4 kids should he get paid more?
Yes, I agree with you on that. It is different between cities, and should be based upon housing/apt costs in the city as well as basic costs of living (heat, groceries, gas). There was an economist who calculated Southern California's poverty rate and asserted it would be around $36,000. $36,000 is plenty to live on if you're in Memphis, Tennessee.
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Konyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
#19123481 - 11/11/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
Illyabo said:
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psyconaught said: not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?
11.50
great. Where exactly in your ass did you locate that number? Did that account for the extreme difference in cost of living between cities? or what about children? if two people are working the same minimum wage job but one has 4 kids should he get paid more?
for a multi billion dollar company to pay you less then that it would have to involve either micro currency or free labor
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Crystal G



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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
#19123762 - 11/11/13 10:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I also forgot to add, since we were on the discussion of the Iraq War, was that one of the reasons for the Iraq War was largely the motive for profit. There was a large incentive to acquire cheap oil, and Cheney had a large incentive to profit from the war considering his $10+ million stocks in Halliburton. In this case, could you say that capitalism benefits the masses? No, the Iraq War was a classic case of capitalism benefiting the elite at the expense of the masses.
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psyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
#19123800 - 11/11/13 10:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crystal G said: I also forgot to add, since we were on the discussion of the Iraq War, was that one of the reasons for the Iraq War was largely the motive for profit. There was a large incentive to acquire cheap oil, and Cheney had a large incentive to profit from the war considering his $10+ million stocks in Halliburton. In this case, could you say that capitalism benefits the masses? No, the Iraq War was a classic case of capitalism benefiting the elite at the expense of the masses.
the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught] 1
#19124095 - 11/11/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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psyconaught said: the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.
They really aren't that different. Once corporations and lobbyists take over the government, it will always be the end-stage of a capitalist economy. There is no way to avoid crony capitalism unless you want to avoid capitalism all together.
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Crystal G



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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains] 1
#19124215 - 11/12/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Mush4Brains said:
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psyconaught said: the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.
They really aren't that different. Once corporations and lobbyists take over the government, it will always be the end-stage of a capitalist economy. There is no way to avoid crony capitalism unless you want to avoid capitalism all together.
That's what I'm failing to understand too. So it's like... "crony capitalism," aka capitalism that is invested and intertwined with government is bad for society... yet capitalism should be free to rule the world with no restrictions?? Plus doesn't "free-market enterprise" also include the ability for corporations to freely fund whatever politician or lobbyist they want for whatever political agendas of their choosing?
At least bank bailouts you can argue are not technically capitalism. But the Iraq War is the embodiment of it. Everything about it, from the motive to the privatization of it.
Edited by Crystal G (11/12/13 12:21 AM)
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Enlil
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
#19125019 - 11/12/13 05:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Neither of your sources support your claim that "corporations getting involved in prisons . . . has proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency"
One of your sources says that private prisons cost the same as public prisons and the other source says that the data is mixed. To quote the ACLU report YOU cited:
"Evidence that private prisons save public money is mixed at best. While some research supports such a view, numerous other studies and reports have indicated that private prisons do not save money, cannot be demonstrated to save money in meaningful amounts, or may even cost more than governmentally operated prisons."
Where is your source for the claim that corporate prisons have proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency? Or did you just pull that out of your ass?
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] 1
#19125244 - 11/12/13 07:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crystal G said: The reason they used to say capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy, was because back in societies such as ancient Greece, when you were born an aristocrat, you were expected to use your own money to benefit the masses. You were expected to use your own money to fund irrigation systems and public roads and things of that nature. You were considered a man of the gods, and the reason you were bestowed with that power was because you were directly sent from heaven. So if you were an aristocrat, that was considered your duty in society--to give back to the people.
and in the US today, the bulk of everything is paid for by the wealthy, then a minority of things is payed by the middle class while the poor arent paying anything but frequently getting money for nothing... so guess what, nothing has changed
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] 1
#19125251 - 11/12/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crystal G said: That's what I'm failing to understand too. So it's like... "crony capitalism," aka capitalism that is invested and intertwined with government is bad for society...
you mean like Obamacare, it's a great example of crony capitalism
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Gilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
#19126369 - 11/12/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crystal G said:
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Gilgamesh18 said: Theirs a reason those jobs pay so little though literally anyone can do them the market rewards highly skilled individuals not a minimum wage worker. Our society should focus on becoming a meritocracy with laissez-faire capitalism as the economic system truly great things could be accomplished.
People already have exorbitant financial incentive to create new inventions... we're talking in the millions and billions here. Exactly how would laissez-faire capitalism motivate people any more than our current system? If anything, turning all public schools into for-profit industries and discontinuing grants and financial aid would make education out of reach for a number of people. This actually means that there would be less innovations, since only people whose parents could afford education could possibly attain the mental tools and skills to use it to fruition.
Those jobs pay little, but you also have to account for people's time. People are taking themselves away from their family and from their short life and from all their dreams and the things they want to slave away at a corporation that doesn't give a shit about them. And then put in just as many hours and work just as hard, sometimes even harder, than the management or upper echelon. Don't they at the very least deserve a livable wage for that?
I mean think about it. Why do you think the welfare problem got so bad out of place to begin with? It's because CORPORATIONS DON'T PROVIDE LIVABLE WAGES FOR BASE WORKERS ANYMORE. If corporations actually provided a livable wage to begin with, people's dependence on food stamps and housing aid would go down.... a lot.
Corporations have no duty to pay "livable wages" whatever that means they have a duty to maximize profit. Now does that mean corporations are anti poor people of course not! They have raised the standard of living for everyone exponentially. People are much better off today than they were 100 years ago and that is due in large part to corporations and business in general. Are there losers in life sure, but I think in the quest to make it so nobody can lose at life will in fact create a society in which mediocrity and totalitarianism run rampant.
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Gilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
#19126384 - 11/12/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said:
Quote:
Mush4Brains said:
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psyconaught said: the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.
They really aren't that different. Once corporations and lobbyists take over the government, it will always be the end-stage of a capitalist economy. There is no way to avoid crony capitalism unless you want to avoid capitalism all together.
That's what I'm failing to understand too. So it's like... "crony capitalism," aka capitalism that is invested and intertwined with government is bad for society... yet capitalism should be free to rule the world with no restrictions?? Plus doesn't "free-market enterprise" also include the ability for corporations to freely fund whatever politician or lobbyist they want for whatever political agendas of their choosing?
At least bank bailouts you can argue are not technically capitalism. But the Iraq War is the embodiment of it. Everything about it, from the motive to the privatization of it.
No crony capitalism is not true capitalism at all for crony capitalism is in fact the merger of corporate and state power like obamacare, bank bailouts Iraq war etc. In order for crony capitalism to work though you need a large overbearing government in the first place. If we had a tiny government with well defined constitutional barriers to its growth we would not be in the mess we are in today.
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#19126388 - 11/12/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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In order for crony capitalism to work though you need a large overbearing government in the first place. If we had a tiny government with well defined constitutional barriers to its growth we would not be in the mess we are in today.
We can all talk in hypotheticals and pretend that we are right
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Gilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
#19126406 - 11/12/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Mush4Brains said:
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In order for crony capitalism to work though you need a large overbearing government in the first place. If we had a tiny government with well defined constitutional barriers to its growth we would not be in the mess we are in today.
We can all talk in hypotheticals and pretend that we are right 
Sure but do you have a critique of my hypothesis?
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Mush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#19126417 - 11/12/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would say that a smaller government would be even more likely to be overtaken by the wealthy than a larger one. I guess it also depends on how you define "tiny government."
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