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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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I miss my bucket
    #19123951 - 11/11/13 10:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

But I'm on the proper pasteurization bandwagon now and I don't really want to get off. But there are times (like this week) where I gotta buttload of sub to prep and not enough time or stove space. So I'm wondering, if I properly pasteurized half the sub I need and bucketed the rest, then mixed it all together, would that not spread the beneficial microbes throughout the whole works? When we pasteurize on the stove, only the core retains the microbes anyway, and they spread through the jar as it cools right? Something like this could really save some time and if it works then I'd be laughing :lol:

So opinions and personal experiences on this matter are welcome.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19124183 - 11/12/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Most people think that the bucket tek doesn't stay warm enough for long enough, so no that wouldn't work.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19124265 - 11/12/13 12:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Most people think that the bucket tek doesn't stay warm enough for long enough, so no that wouldn't work.



It stays warm for plenty of time.

It stays within the pasteurization range for way longer than 90 minutes, for me anyways....and I do not use 212F water, I use 180F water.

The bucket tek is frowned upon because it heats the substrate unevenly, and uncontrollably....where as you can control everything about proper pasteurization.

I am currently proper pasteurizing everything except for a few tubs that I experiment with the bucket tek at different temps....

Proper pasteurization is more involved, but better in the long run.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19124368 - 11/12/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've thought about sterilizing substrate and mixing it with a much smaller amount of pasteurized manure, just to see what happens.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Psilicon]
    #19124624 - 11/12/13 02:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I been using 180 degree water in my buckets lately. Then wrapping them in blankets for 30 min, unwrapping and quickly mixing, then rewrapping for an hour. After the hour has elapsed I sit the bucket in a sink full of ice water to quickly cool it.


I've done 6 tubs in a row this way with no issues. Of course I did way more than that using Damion5050's tek with very few problems


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Stromrider]
    #19124860 - 11/12/13 04:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

When I'm in a hurry, I use my Igloo 5 gal insulated water jug and the large paint stirrer on my mixing drill. I lost the lid to it over 20 years ago so I just put a boat cushion on top and stir when I think it is needed. I find that it works better than a regular 5 gallon bucket (no blankets needed for insulation).

Usually I just do it the proper way.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Stromrider]
    #19124915 - 11/12/13 04:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
I been using 180 degree water in my buckets lately. Then wrapping them in blankets for 30 min, unwrapping and quickly mixing, then rewrapping for an hour. After the hour has elapsed I sit the bucket in a sink full of ice water to quickly cool it.





Hmmm that sounds pretty sensible...probably much better then using 212 degree and it cooling more rapidly.

I'm making the switch from "proper" pasteurization to bucket as it's a frikkin nightmare trying to properly pasteurise on my induction stove and I think I probably end up sterilising or just not properly pasteurising.

As I am so short of time at present I was considering doing Damo's tek but leaving overnight to cool...would this then be a bad idea due to wanting to cool rapidly after 1 1/2 - 2 hours??


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Skinty]
    #19125158 - 11/12/13 06:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I used to let it cool overnight with no issues. Now I cool in a sink of ice water. It only takes about 30 or 45 min.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Stromrider]
    #19125175 - 11/12/13 06:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
I've thought about sterilizing substrate and mixing it with a much smaller amount of pasteurized manure, just to see what happens.




This would probably be the way to test whether or not mixing the two could work as you would be able to determine a definite fail, which might be difficult with just a plain coir/verm sub. I might test this on a small scale one day.

Quote:

Stromrider said:
I been using 180 degree water in my buckets lately. Then wrapping them in blankets for 30 min, unwrapping and quickly mixing, then rewrapping for an hour. After the hour has elapsed I sit the bucket in a sink full of ice water to quickly cool it.


I've done 6 tubs in a row this way with no issues. Of course I did way more than that using Damion5050's tek with very few problems




This sounds appealing. Have you checked the temp after the hour is up? If damions tek is a partial sterilization, your method definitely sounds like more of a real pasteurization and if you can hold the temp long enough should be the easy magic bucket that we all have been looking for. Think I want to give this a try for sure.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19125202 - 11/12/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I miss the bucket too, but I don't miss the contam rate.

seems like mixing half proper pasteurized with half bucket tek would not be much different than spawning in open air, at least as it concerns contaminants and CVG.

I wonder if a good way to cool down such a mass could be done by freezing a 2L bottle of water and sticking it right in the middle.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19125213 - 11/12/13 06:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

OP, what do you do for proper pasteurization then?


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: 404]
    #19125218 - 11/12/13 07:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My buckets got a hole in it.




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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Stromrider]
    #19125236 - 11/12/13 07:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

StateOfMind404 said:
OP, what do you do for proper pasteurization then?




I pasteurize in jars on my stove ala Frank's method. I have had an excellent success rate with it.

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I miss the bucket too, but I don't miss the contam rate.

seems like mixing half proper pasteurized with half bucket tek would not be much different than spawning in open air, at least as it concerns contaminants and CVG.

I wonder if a good way to cool down such a mass could be done by freezing a 2L bottle of water and sticking it right in the middle.




Agreed, is the reason I stopped using the bucket. I could just cool it by sticking it outside, its cold as fuck here now.

Quote:

Stromrider said:
I been using 180 degree water in my buckets lately. Then wrapping them in blankets for 30 min, unwrapping and quickly mixing, then rewrapping for an hour. After the hour has elapsed I sit the bucket in a sink full of ice water to quickly cool it.




The more I think about this the more I'm liking it. Everyone always said the reason the bucket didn't work was that the temps were not held high enough for long enough. But I have a hard time thinking that the water would cool 50 degrees from boiling soon enough and thus the sterilization, then add the slow cooling time with the tek and its easy to see where problems could occur. 180-170 then add water seems like it could be a far better ticket. Maybe start off with a little less water to start, then add a bit more water at 170ish 30 min later on to keep the temps right, without too much heat. I think I will try this soon just to see.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19125293 - 11/12/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Everyone always said the reason the bucket didn't work was that the temps were not held high enough for long enough. But I have a hard time thinking that the water would cool 50 degrees from boiling soon enough and thus the sterilization, then add the slow cooling time with the tek and its easy to see where problems could occur. 180-170 then add water seems like it could be a far better ticket. Maybe start off with a little less water to start, then add a bit more water at 170ish 30 min later on to keep the temps right, without too much heat. I think I will try this soon just to see.




I thought the problem was that at 212F you actually sterilise. When I have done bucket tek with boiling water it's too hot to put my hand in even after about 3 hours. Maybe my bucket is just epically amazing :shrug:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Skinty]
    #19125310 - 11/12/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

plastic has a lower heat conductivity than metal. My plastic buckets always held temp for hours and hours.
Never tried a metal bucket, but I'd think it would cool faster..


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: spacechildo]
    #19125313 - 11/12/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
plastic has a lower heat conductivity than metal. My plastic buckets always held temp for hours and hours.
Never tried a metal bucket, but I'd think it would cool faster..




Yes that would make sense. I am thinking that using Strom's idea with a well insulated bucket like mine could yield very successful results.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Skinty]
    #19125323 - 11/12/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No that's what I'm saying, the temps are too high for too long. I don't even think wrapping it is necessary, no way its gonna be below 140 IMO. I think that the other main problem as hacker stated is that the heat is uneven. You could probably get around this by breaking the brick up before hand, and by cracking it open to mix it up sooner than the teks recommended 45 min, maybe like 10 min in. Its my suspicion that we can pasteurize in a bucket, its just a container after all.

The problem IMO lies in the currently accepted tek of just dumping in boiling water and leaving it. I'm thinking that with some tweaking, the tek could be made to work far better than it does if we address the problems of uneven heat, duration, quicker cooling, etc. Even if the original post I made of mixing proper pasteurized sub with bucket tek sub works I will take that over having to stovetop pasteurize all of my sub.

I guess I'm just thinking that there has to be a better way to achieve proper pasteurization in larger quantities for the average city guy, than a stove top full of jars.

I didn't really articulate myself well in my previous post, still half asleep :lol:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19125325 - 11/12/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I getcha :wink::thumbup:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Skinty]
    #19126262 - 11/12/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17076834#17076834
I use this method and it works excellent for me. The only differences in that tek and IME is that he says it takes 2.5 hours to reach temp, and for me it took close to 5. That and it cost me about 200 to put together and he says 100. You could probably get by for cheaper than me though. Still beats having to constantly monitor and adjust temps. This is totally set and forget. And you can scale up or down by getting a larger or smaller cooler. One piece of advice if you go with this though is definitely get a cooler and not a monotub container. It takes long enough to reach temp as it is.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: bulkgrownoob]
    #19127375 - 11/12/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You need to realize that if you want the substrate in the bucket start out being 170 degrees that you actually need to pour 180 to 185 degree water in it. The coir and verm in the bucket are room temp and are going to immediately pull the temp down 10 or 15 degrees. Kind of like when you pour warm water on ice


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Stromrider]
    #19146553 - 11/16/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think there would be an issue with cooling a substrate from the inside out?


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19146677 - 11/16/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Like a shot of Liquid Nitrogen>\? Just wanted to chime in, I really don't know what the hell you guys are talking about with your buckets and your cooling. Just throwing this out there... I found this looking at solutions for my King Oysters.




Cold Pasteurization Methods:



It is necessary to pasteurize or sterilize your substrate prior to inoculating it with spawn. The decision of pasteurizing verses sterilizing depends on both your substrate and your species grown. In general, if you have a low nutrient value substrate like paper, cardboard, or straw, then pasteurization is sufficient and far cheaper than true sterilization. Sawdust varies in nutrient value, and can sometimes work well with a simple pasteurization step, and sometimes needs to be sterilized. For those that say Shiitake cannot be grown on pasteurized straw, I encourage you to look at this short Write-Up from a grower in San Diego who grows Shiitake quite successfully on straw. Since Straw works the best for Oyster Mushrooms, I will describe the process on straw:



To do a cold pasteurization step, you will need to soak your straw in a solution that will hydrate the straw and kill off the majority of single celled organisms present. There are a number of things you can use for this, but by far the best is hydrated lime. The exact concentration is not critical, just a big double handful in a 55 gallon drum of water. Then submerge your straw, weight it down so it does not float, and wait 12 to 24 hrs. No longer, as you do not want to develop a bunch of lime resistant organisms, between 16 and 18 hrs is perfect. After soaking, drain the excess water, bag the straw and inoculate it with your spawn. Works great, the typical BE is 150% to 175%, and the quality of the fruit bodies are better than with the hot water method.


Taken from http://www.alohaculturebank.com/low-tech-growing.html


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Sockadin]
    #19147776 - 11/16/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

that could also be called chemical pasturisation. There is always the roaster oven tek from t bag, you could run four roasters for $100. For straw you can ferment it, as for oysters.

back to buckets... put one nested in another for insulation. Why not use loose coir instead of bricks to speed heating and mixing?


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: mushrume man]
    #19147897 - 11/16/13 11:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mushrume man said:
back to buckets... put one nested in another for insulation. Why not use loose coir instead of bricks to speed heating and mixing?



When I was doing bucket tek I would always break up my coir bricks beforehand. Might be why it worked well for me most of the time. I definitely think I'm gonna dig my buckets outta the shed and give stromriders way of thinking a shot. Something like heat 4 quarts to 180 pour and close. Temp should drop to 160ish pretty quick. Then 10-15 min later add another quart heated to 170-165 or so, mix and place in another bucket to keep the temps up. Would check the temp every 20 min to see if they were holding between 140-160. Shouldn't be too hard to get it just right.

But in the meantime I am trying something else that's easier than stove top pasteurization IMO, though not as simple as the beloved bucket :lol: I have read several times RR say that sterilized coir is no worse than pasteurized, as trich and most molds have a hard time germinating on it. I have yet to see anyone try to grow this way tho. So tonight I did what I have been wondering about for a while. I just sterilized the shit outta a whole load of sub and will be doing a couple little tubs with it just to see what happens. No matter what happens, results shall be posted with more tests planned for the future.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19148274 - 11/17/13 02:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I like my betty crocker roaster for pasteurization. Just put jar rings on the bottom, load some thick ziplock bags with sub, set roaster to 145, let it go for 4-5 hours. You can take temp if you want to make sure it is good.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19148859 - 11/17/13 09:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Would check the temp every 20 min to see if they were holding between 140-160.




I'm looking for some links to quote, but it seems I've read that you're not supposed to take the probe in and out during the pasteurization period.

My understanding is that you would be exposing unpasteurized substrate to contaminants that won't be at temps long enough for pasteurization to occur.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19148870 - 11/17/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Would check the temp every 20 min to see if they were holding between 140-160.




I'm looking for some links to quote, but it seems I've read that you're not supposed to take the probe in and out during the pasteurization period.

My understanding is that you would be exposing unpasteurized substrate to contaminants that won't be at temps long enough for pasteurization to occur.




If that's the case, I hope you're not spawning to a fruiting chamber that wasn't pasteurized as well.  :grin:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Sockadin]
    #19148871 - 11/17/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Do you think there would be an issue with cooling a substrate from the inside out?




Quote:

Sockadin said:
Like a shot of Liquid Nitrogen>\?




No. I mean like sticking a frozen bottle of water down the middle of the bucket at the end.

I don't know why it would matter, but I'm not particularly educated in pasteurization biology. May be only one way to find out.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Psilicon]
    #19148895 - 11/17/13 09:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think the difference is that I'm spawning to a fully pasteurized substrate. Once pasteurized, it don't really matter

If I open my bucket before its fully pasteurized, like 20 minutes after I start my timer, I think the timer may stop because i've introduced new contams.

CVG may not matter as much and I could be wrong. I just wanted to point that out.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19149012 - 11/17/13 10:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well even if that was the case, it would only be for first run or so, to get the timing down. After that it would just be bucket business as usual. Though it's a good thing to keep in mind in case something did go south.

I am becoming more convinced in the reliability of coir. Will be interesting to see how my sterilized subs perform. In my mind 4-6 successful sterilized subs won't be a definitive result, but may encourage me to run a 10-15 more just to shore up the numbers.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19149047 - 11/17/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page here. I'm doing some various experiments as well.

I have all these buckets and dammit, I intend to use them somehow.:laugh:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19149085 - 11/17/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've seen lots pictures and videos of oyster mushroom grows in buckets of moist cardboard and five-gallon outdoor FCs.  Just a couple suggestions.  :smile:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19149471 - 11/17/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I just got finished with a test.

I broke up my coir in a bucket, added 3 qts vermiculite and 4.5 qts of 175F water. I set the bucket in another bucket for insulation.

After 20 mins, I used my paint mixer to mix it all up real well and put the timer on 60 minutes.

After 60 minutes, the core temperature was 150F but the top and outer edge was 129F.

In my humble opinion, this is not proper pasteurization.

I will post results of my insulated bucket in about 20 minutes.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (11/17/13 12:13 PM)


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19149500 - 11/17/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Almost the inverse of stovetop pasteurization where the core is cooler than the outside. Look forward to seeing the results of the insulated bucket.


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19149548 - 11/17/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Insulated bucket:

Core at 155. Top and outer edge 135.

I'll be sticking with jars for now. :shrug:

I'm gonna try and find a container that fits in my kettle nicely. I have a 12 qt canning pot that would fit nicely into my 23qt pc, except the handles get in the way.


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InvisibleSkinty
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Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 1,150
Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19149647 - 11/17/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well I've just made a tub using *modified* bucket tek...about 7 quarts clean rye spawn to coir / verm / gypsum.

Added 4 quarts 185 degree water to coir / verm for 20 minutes then added gypsum and 1 quart 190 degree water...

Hoping for good results :wave:

Edit...then left for about 8 hours by accident cos I ended up going out all night getting all :mushroom2::crazy2::uhoh::facepalm: then put outside in freezing cold for about 12 hours till making tub :thumbup:


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Edited by Skinty (11/17/13 12:57 PM)


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19149729 - 11/17/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Bummer about the tests, I got a few I might try soon as well. The results you put up here tho are giving me some ideas about how to proceed :thumbup:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Skinty]
    #19149735 - 11/17/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lol that's the way we do :crazy2:


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Re: I miss my bucket [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19149988 - 11/17/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:goodmorning:


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor


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