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Anonymous

Re: Over-population of the world [Re: GazzBut]
    #1917937 - 09/15/03 11:29 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Our overproduction of agricultual produce certainly does though.

how?

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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
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Re: Over-population of the world [Re: ]
    #1918004 - 09/15/03 12:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Look, its quite simple. If our level of consumption did not take away from the amount of food that third world countries have, those coutries would be eating happily right now.
There are only two facts that you have to examine to realize that our consumption hurts third world countries.
1: The first world countries are eating more than they need to. The U.S. has an esspecially high rate of obesity.
2: Third world countries have so little food that most people are undernourished
There is a certain amount of food in the world. If we get more, they get less. This is not debatable. Wheather the first world countries have the right to this food or not is debatable.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais

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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1918018 - 09/15/03 12:11 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Can we have some evidence of this? Proof? Sources? Anything?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: ]
    #1918056 - 09/15/03 12:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Third world farmers are unable to compete with this government subsidised over-produce. Especially when confronted with unfair trading laws.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1918087 - 09/15/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

clam_dude writes:

Look, its quite simple. If our level of consumption did not take away from the amount of food that third world countries have, those coutries would be eating happily right now.

Explain how this works, please. Are you saying that the US sends ships to Africa, loads them up (at gunpoint) with food grown in Africa, then sails home leaving the Africans with nothing to eat? If the Africans don't grow enough to eat, how is it they have enough to load onto US ships?

There are only two facts that you have to examine to realize that our consumption hurts third world countries.
1: The first world countries are eating more than they need to. The U.S. has an esspecially high rate of obesity.


And how does this over-eating of food by American porkers prevent Third Worlders from growing (or buying) what they need? American farmers will sell their stuff to whoever wants to buy it.

2: Third world countries have so little food that most people are undernourished

Same question as above -- what does this have to do with the daily caloric intake of Bill Gates or Michael Moore?

There is a certain amount of food in the world. If we get more, they get less. This is not debatable.

Once again, you haven't thought this through. The limit of the food-producing capacity of the world has yet to be reached. In the United States alone there are millions of acres of arable land lying fallow. In many cases, the US government actually pays US farmers to NOT grow food on this land.

To say "if we get more, they get less" is absolutely false. We don't steal it from them. As a matter of fact, we barely even buy much from them. There is no need for the US to import food from Africa. That's one of the reasons African countries are so poor -- they have nothing to trade to other countries.

Here's something to ponder -- what if there were no such thing as trans-atlantic shipping?

Wheather the first world countries have the right to this food or not is debatable.

Well, let's see. The food is grown in the US, using American farm equipment and American seed stock, on land that was cleared by Americans. Gee, you're right. No logical reason to presume that the people who produce the food have a right to it.

pinky


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: Phred]
    #1918153 - 09/15/03 12:55 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Mark. You said it better than I would have. That argument made ZERO sense.

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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1918270 - 09/15/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

As pink pointed out,your entire arguement was nonsense. You need to think your ideas out a little better. :thumbdown: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: Phred]
    #1918695 - 09/15/03 03:58 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)


Same question as above -- what does this have to do with the daily caloric intake of Bill Gates or Michael Moore?


The daily caloric intake of Micheal Moore probably equals that of
a third-world nation.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1918702 - 09/15/03 04:03 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

In my opinion the main reasons that third-world people are starving
at times:

1. Natural Disasters(floods, droughts, etc..)
2. Having too many kids
3. Wars
4. Living on land that has practically no value(no natural
resources, bad for farming, etc...), therefore they have
no way of growing food or trading something to get it.

None of these reasons have anything to do with how much we eat.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1918757 - 09/15/03 04:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Aceepting that the four reasons you gave are the main reasons for third world starvation, conveniently ignoring unfair trade etc..etc..!
What should we do? Should we help them or just leave em to it and munch another bigmac?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: GazzBut]
    #1918770 - 09/15/03 04:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

^^^I agree. The World Bank, IMF, and WTO bear a lot of responsibility for the dire conditions in third world countries.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: clam_dude]
    #1918812 - 09/15/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Look, its quite simple. If our level of consumption did not take away from the amount of food that third world countries have, those coutries would be eating happily right now.




Explain how that would happen? For that to be true, the entire world would haev to be producing the same amount of food per acre, and we would have to be taking food from these people. Any food we do get from other nations,we pay for, so they could use that money to obtain other things. I think that is your biggest misunderstanding. Us using things doesn't prevent other people from having them. Their isn't a communal food bank, and we rush to it every hour and steal food from other nations. They aren't capable of producing as much food per acre as we are, due to lack of agricultural skill and technology.

Quote:


There are only two facts that you have to examine to realize that our consumption hurts third world countries.
1: The first world countries are eating more than they need to. The U.S. has an esspecially high rate of obesity.
2: Third world countries have so little food that most people are undernourished




So this is our fault, and we must be made to pay for their lack of agricultural knowledge?

Quote:


There is a certain amount of food in the world. If we get more, they get less. This is not debatable. Wheather the first world countries have the right to this food or not is debatable.




The only statement I can agree with is the first one. Their is a certain amount of foodin the world. The USA produces more food than most other nations. We either sell this food to other nations, or we consume it ourselves within this nation. Other naions produce food as well. These nations can decide to sell their food, or to keep it for themselves. If a nation is selling all of their food, then they are recieving money for it which they can use to purchase other foodstuffs. The only way this doesnt' work out is if a nation isn't producing enough food to feed their own people. If this happens, it's not because the US is buying all of it, or preventing them from growing it, it's their own fault. Do you think that the US should produce food and give it away to every other nation? Why? Isn't that going against natural selection? Don't we give enough handouts in this country to peopel that aren't capable of making their own way?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: GazzBut]
    #1920010 - 09/15/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)


conveniently ignoring unfair trade etc..etc..!


How can trade be unfair when it is voluntary?


What should we do? Should we help them or just leave em to it and munch another bigmac?


I am ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I feel that it is feasible
that richer countries could contribute enough resources to poorer
countries and build up infrastructures, which might lead to more
prosperity.

However, I have reservations:

1. I have nothing to do with why these countries are shitholes.
Why should it be demanded of me to help them?

2. These countries are often wracked by civil unrest, and in
most cases the infrastructure would end up being quickly
destroyed, or utilized to benefit some warlord. Stable and
prosperous democracies are impossible in some of the cultures
around this world. To be quite blunt, some people just do not
have as much of a penchant for civility and freedom as Westerners do.

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InvisibleMusicSucks
Illegal Smile
Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 35
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1920081 - 09/15/03 10:47 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

[bold] 1. I have nothing to do with why these countries are shitholes.
Why should it be demanded of me to help them? [/bold]
Part of life is cleaning up messes you didn't make...


--------------------
There is no dark side of the moon really... Matter of fact, it's all dark.

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: MusicSucks]
    #1920855 - 09/16/03 07:57 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe that is why the US gives more to help other people than anyone else?

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Offlineunlikelyhero
Ramblin' Man

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 106
Loc: Lancaster (Uni), Darlingt...
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1920856 - 09/16/03 07:58 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Read the speech on the New Renaissance if you want to know why our over-population will be the end of us and why we are a danger to this planet.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: shakta]
    #1920863 - 09/16/03 08:03 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe that is why the US gives more to help other people than anyone else?




Is that more per capita or just more? And when you factor in all the exploitation etc of these countries we dont give them shit. Its just takes a little of the top of what we are robbing from them.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1920867 - 09/16/03 08:05 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

How can trade be unfair when it is voluntary?




I cant be bothered to explain this again. Until you make the effort to understand what all the fuss in Cancun has been about Im not interested in debating with you.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (09/16/03 08:06 AM)

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Offlineunlikelyhero
Ramblin' Man

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 106
Loc: Lancaster (Uni), Darlingt...
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: GazzBut]
    #1920896 - 09/16/03 08:22 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Do you honestly think that non-Western countries walked out of the WTO meetings because of sour grapes? Read up on the role of the WTO and how it serves Corporate and American interests over everyone elses, if you think that.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Over-population of the world [Re: GazzBut]
    #1920900 - 09/16/03 08:27 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

What is this we shit. You aren't an American citizen.

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