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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19115110 - 11/10/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: I remember from a while ago reading a line in one of Jed Mckenna's books that people aren't afraid of death, they are actually afraid of the self not being real, and that death is only a shadow of no self.
Now, when I ponder Icelanders definition of enlightenment; to have no death anxiety either conscious or unconscious, I wonder, and I believe Icelander does as well, whether this even possible to do while still living. After all, the biological drive for life is quite strong. However, I feel the important part of this definition is the lack of attachment to this life.
If fear of death is the impediment, then there is hard work involved. The self, which exists now, must give up attachment to it's own existence. There is something to let go of, to release.
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
If there is no attachment to this life, then whether one fears death or not is of no significance. Fear will come and go, like any other phenomena.
How does one become unattached to this life? You can PM me if you want it to be our little secret.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19115121 - 11/10/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good idea. I wouldn't want any of these simpletons becoming enlightened.
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19115246 - 11/10/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I feel like when we can reduce the amount of hold our ego has on our everyday existence, we experience less death anxiety. Is it possible to reach the point of ZERO death anxiety? I dunno. The last time I saw my Aikido sensei before he died from liver cancer, he seemed to have no anxiety over the issue. He told me he was really curious what it would be like.
I think the practical message though is that the less attached to the ego we become, the easier things like this are to deal with. Will I ever become enlightened? Well, I'm becoming enlightened every day. It's a process, not a destination IMO. It's a path.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19115323 - 11/10/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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everyone's a simpleton until they are enlightened :p
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19115333 - 11/10/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think enlightenment is the ultimate simplicity. Sometimes I wonder if the people we would label as simpletons are really those who have it more figured out than we do.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19115414 - 11/10/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Like me!
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
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Loc: Chicago
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19116754 - 11/10/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Even though I've never read Jed McKenna, I tend to agree with your OP. But I don't think the two are too far off from each other. David Loy wrote a book called "Lack and Transcendence: The Problem of Life and Death in Psychotherapy, Existentialism, and Buddhism." It's pretty good, and he quotes Becker a lot in it. He argues that the Buddha pointed out the problem a long time ago, and said that it's a fear that we're groundless (there's no self) in a groundless universe, and that there's nothing for us to hold on to -- ever.
I'd recommend the book. I think it book by Leichty called Transference and Transcendence, where he lays out Becker's arguments very concisely. Becker did seem to point out that the mind-body dualism that's created, and why man is anxious, isn't necessarily a ontological dualism, but a perceived dualism. We may not ever be able to not-perceive it that that way, as the brain might just be wired that way though. But I tend to agree that it's a fear of the self. As Loy pointed out, the fear of death assumes that there is a self to die.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19116927 - 11/10/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool. I'll check it out once school is done.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19117140 - 11/10/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I just reread over it and realized that there are like a 1000 mistypes in there. I typed it up in a hurry. But I'm glad you still found it compelling enough to check it out.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19119041 - 11/11/13 04:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for the tip dood. 
Just ordered both of them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/11/13 05:12 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19119587 - 11/11/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i dont understand how you cant see such obvious issue clearly and everyone keep talking about by imagining what to say
death by itself can be okay when everything is fine, so for the fact that enjoying being cant be constant but the issue is the negative power over ourselves that we face mostly on those times, because when we have no health problem all life is about ourselves meanings given to but when our bodies are mentally also weak, we face the truth the horrible truth, that insistence of everything to take advantage of everything by force, we face how we must get killed and witness evil strength figures becoming everything present upon ourselves forcing us to die like dirty murderers do
anyway, i dont understand how you can speak as if you were never there, how you never recognize else existence when they are saying something or being consciously in front of your eyes...
again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine when everything leave us in peace while we leave all to, dying in looking at everything as something right this is also a right for humans, conscious beings, to die like that..
but again everything and conditions powers dont enjoy but to hate any right as the positive reason of existence, as if being is opposed to the source of everything, which is noone so any inferior mean can get the glory of being in powers over true livings value...in the pretense of being more in truth since acting as inferior negative entity so more adapted to existence of none
this is really disgusting when one think about it or see it
how there is no common sense of rights and values appreciations or considerations, of what is always present
it is not sad it is disgusting..
Edited by absols (11/11/13 09:50 AM)
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19119613 - 11/11/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Death doesn't scare me. I tried to off myself. I walked down to the Mississipppi with a razor blade after downing 20 2mg xanax and started slashing my arms.
Somewhere during the process I envisioned my parrot who I saved from polyomma and I missed her so badly that I stopped before I hit an artery.
You all might think fear of death is something to shit yourselves over. I feared being duplicitous to my parrot who I vowed to protect.
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: eve69]
#19119935 - 11/11/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: Death doesn't scare me. I tried to off myself. I walked down to the Mississipppi with a razor blade after downing 20 2mg xanax and started slashing my arms.
Somewhere during the process I envisioned my parrot who I saved from polyomma and I missed her so badly that I stopped before I hit an artery.
You all might think fear of death is something to shit yourselves over. I feared being duplicitous to my parrot who I vowed to protect.
Not buying. Parrots do make good excuses though. It's been scientifically proven.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19119942 - 11/11/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine
Right cause you've died so you know from firsthand experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19119949 - 11/11/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Whats cool about the way I think(after that stroke-like event), since I can't form complete sentences in my mind or very well with my voice it may be easier for me to say fuck it and have complete silence in my mind. I just have to deal with my sensations and feeling aspect(and the nonverbal thought) but verbally I'm lucky so to speak.
that's kind of confusing to say since im using words now but this is the best way I can get it out of me coherently. Within in my mind/vocal cords I'm lucky to speak a complete sentence especially in my mind.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/11/13 11:12 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19120153 - 11/11/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine
Right cause you've died so you know from firsthand experience. 
no all my senses of being dead before are painful and creeps me out
but i mean always a different possible justification of anything out of myself sense in being true, i am constantly positive in different ways, so to me any thought even, before it becomes a conceptual word, is necessarily positive first so it is just to point how the fact is to get killed which is opposite to dying being which concerns oneself alone...
we are forced to look dying actually we are being abused from what we can die naturally or in truth, so our bodies and minds are meant to serve others lives while we are still being consciously ourselves ...
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19120188 - 11/11/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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for me it is much better to not speak especially in mind, because that kills yourself you are your mind source so even if you mean to get away from emotions or sensations it is only by being objectively real that you can act as positive source, which would justify speaking about some things extra out of yourself that you might care about or hate ...
we are forced to look much more inferior than what we actually are, in all ways we are constantly here to get trapped and killed in depth of our individuality rights and values
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19120407 - 11/11/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Death isn't such a big deal. I have gone through it countless times.
how about that time I was working the line cooking and my fellow cook's husband broke up with her over the phone. I gave her some Valium and we started doing shots of Mata Hari (101) Absinth (since we had it on line to cook with). I remember the second half a cup and then I woke up in Charity Hospital screaming. My head hurt so bad I couldn't stop. I heard the nurse complaining to a doctor that she had given me eleven shots of morphine and he replied, don't waste you trime on morphine give him dilaudid. I told her I had to pee. She said, can you make it into this (a flask looking thing) and I said okay. And then pissed myself in front of my wife and the nurse (who was beautiful).
I remember waking up at the discharge counter and signed myself out. My wife told me they had no room for people in my mild condition (I just had blood on the brain).
My nose was broken. I was to come back a couple days later to have it fixed.
You see, I had gotten into a bar brawl in front of Chris Owens on Bourbon Street and been beaten by a group of fags with beer bottles until I almost died. (no offense non violent fags).
I had been almost killed. I really didn't give a shit. Later I would be more dismayed by the fact that I kissed my coworker - a skaggy bitch with Hep C.
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19121209 - 11/11/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
absols said:
Quote:
Icelander said: again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine
Right cause you've died so you know from firsthand experience. 
no all my senses of being dead before are painful and creeps me out
but i mean always a different possible justification of anything out of myself sense in being true, i am constantly positive in different ways, so to me any thought even, before it becomes a conceptual word, is necessarily positive first so it is just to point how the fact is to get killed which is opposite to dying being which concerns oneself alone...
we are forced to look dying actually we are being abused from what we can die naturally or in truth, so our bodies and minds are meant to serve others lives while we are still being consciously ourselves ...
What?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19121592 - 11/11/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
absols said: for me it is much better to not speak especially in mind, because that kills yourself you are your mind source so even if you mean to get away from emotions or sensations it is only by being objectively real that you can act as positive source, which would justify speaking about some things extra out of yourself that you might care about or hate ...
we are forced to look much more inferior than what we actually are, in all ways we are constantly here to get trapped and killed in depth of our individuality rights and values
I saw some of the posts here and it got me wondering...
some say to think / question everything, think all the time some say to not think at all some say to think only when necessary
what is best and why?
I believe I am not my thoughts, but the one controlling them
a balance between thoughts/no thoughts is probably the best thing to have being able to feel at ease with ones thoughts at any time without needing anything being able to stop thinking when needed
being able to live without living as thoughts/emotions/desires all the time but without complete abstinence either?
the golden middle way... nature,simple lifestyle,meditation as needed ?
I realize that my thoughts have no control over me, but also that I become my thoughts the more that I think and they can take control easily, there seems to be no way around that meditation can help it, but much dedication is needed, especially in a stressing life situation so I am more an "only think when needed", meditate as needed, nature/simple lifestyle person 
once I notice my thoughts taking control of me its too late even with meditation it can happen, takes long to master....
I try to observe my thoughts too... gets easier with time, and less and less thoughts
all my previous problems were caused by living too much as my thoughts I believe, so that is why I ask... do you think living too much as thoughts is bad? and what do you consider a good way to achieve balance?
any meditation techniques any of you can recommend that has had a positive impact on your life? have only tried meditating my own ways, in nature, with crystals, by feel etc., but would like to learn meditation
Edited by lessismore (11/11/13 04:50 PM)
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