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OfflineSilverwolf
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British Indigenous
    #1911984 - 09/13/03 06:27 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hi guys! The internet's a strange beast isn't it ?it's still a journey of discovery for me "on the web".However I digress,I believe the subject is "hunting".Having successfully found psilocybe semilanceata (I looked it up!!) all over mainland Britain (although not Scotland,apologies if you are!) my attention this year is turning to locating wild cynacens and "migrating" some amanitas.I have a sad story about the familiar muscal some may like to hear so please consider this post an initial introduction.If anyone knows of some useful and specific works on the uses,both traditional and otherwise,of both the muscaria and pantherina,please let me know,"for I have tales of dragons"....:mushroom2: 


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Lonewolf (09/14/03 07:13 PM)


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OfflineLizard King
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Silverwolf]
    #1912180 - 09/13/03 10:54 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Welcome to the shroomery :wink: And yes indeed, the internet is a strange wonderful thing, bringing people from around the globe together.


I'd love a good amanita story, they are usually very interesting.

With some research and a bit of luck, you should be able to locate some Ps. cyanescens over there in yankee country.




LK,


--------------------


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Lizard King]
    #1912253 - 09/13/03 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yeaha, tell us, ill rub the sticks for the conflagration. :grin:


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1914818 - 09/14/03 07:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Have a feeling I might "dig-ress" myself in so far I won't be able to get out.NO my right wing fiend I was BORN in Britain,I live in Britain and ,so far, all my mushroom and fungi experiences have taken place here ("..and good for you" Tm) ..he..he..!It's too damn HOT though guys we're forecast 27c in London for today..AND I'm supposed to be picking in Wales in 17 days time -or so-..(a little localised precipitation would be nice so keep banging those rocks,or rubbing those sticks, please!)   


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Lonewolf (09/14/03 07:30 AM)


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OfflineSorceroom
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Silverwolf]
    #1914821 - 09/14/03 07:33 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It's annoying aint it :frown: They keep saying the weather will get worse (better), but it never does!


--------------------
You are entering the realm of imagination and dreams, which is not subject to time and space...


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Sorceroom]
    #1914941 - 09/14/03 10:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

in poland they call the stones that make sparks when you bang them together "krzemien," and someone i remember equated them with silicon. what are those stones made out of?


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OfflineEnglander
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1914961 - 09/14/03 10:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

quartz? flint?

i aint no geologist!


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Englander]
    #1916026 - 09/14/03 06:52 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Oooooh Tampa Bay That's Seminole Country..and "Tapenades"?(I Will soon only be seen for clods of earth being ejected at ground level).there are some nice amanita pics in the gallery.I once shot a few pics for our local study center and then presented them on a map giving the location of each cluster on our "common",this leads me on to -some- of the main point of this sutra.Muscarine or muscal (?) is produced in the chemical factory formed by the relationship (known as "mycorrhizal") of nutrients and water from the hyphae and plant sugars from the tree (s) right? BEWARE fungi will grow on root systems no longer being fed by sufficient -if any- foliage,the resulting brew may be deadly due to lack of combustion, not enough sugar (or was it the pollution impaction from a difficult site?:discuss)!As a result of an orchid protection programme on our afforementioned "common" the Birches which have been feeding the largest permanent cluster were cut down this year,therefore when fruiting bodies appear I am thinking of a "fresh spore" transplant to a more secluded,less vandal prone and less polluted site.I'm a newbee cultivation wise so any tips etc. will be greatly appreciated.I've seen amanitas symbiote with birch,spruce (have you? Ed),oak and even (I swear) beech here in Britain.Interestingly the oak and beech varieties were smooth skinned (none of the "traditional" white spots).Hey YEAH I thought you guys -through the "sipapu"- only got the yellow fellas "gemmata"?Obviously this is NOT the case-if the gallery is to be believed.I guess the tone of this message is something of a warning,make sure you and the wandering merchant are on good terms my friends,make sure.    :confused:

  :alert:(This is a subsequent edit) Two corrections need to be made concerning the post above;
1.Muscarine IS NOT the psychoactive chemical component in amanita muscaria ,it may in certain circumstances (?) be the deadly one (see following page (s ?)).The active chemical is muscimol.
2.Also I mentioned that I thought gemmata was the only psychoactive amanita in the States.Infact I couldn't find the picture I "knew" was there in either of the sources I'm currently using.Amanita muscaria var.formosa is the sub-species to which I was referring.Although from viewing the gallery and other posts it is evident that A.muscaria is abundant over there.
Found A.m symbiotic with any unusual host trees guys?I'd love to hear about it!This also raises this issue of the pantherina whose useage by Siberian Shaman I know I've seen reference to,any comments?


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Lonewolf (09/19/03 06:14 AM)


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Silverwolf]
    #1916415 - 09/14/03 09:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i believe the mycorhizal relationship between fungi and plants primarily involves nutrients such as nitrates and others, not complex polysaccharides. am i wrong or am i right?


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Silverwolf]
    #1917438 - 09/15/03 06:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Liberty caps are also very common in Scotland. Just because you found none there does not mean there are not any there. believe me when i say they are there.

mj


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1917495 - 09/15/03 07:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Again my apologies to our friends north of the border,I have NO DOUBT that the harvest of liberty caps is abundant in "Scocia" I have just never picked there.
"Mycorrhizal:Mycorrhizae are the basis for a close beneficial relationship between the tree and the fungus,in which the tree gives the fungus sugars,while the fungus provides water and nutrients.A mycorrhizal relationship is formed when the hyphae of fungi species,including some agarics and most boletes,penetrate roots of a suitable,living,host tree." (nb -see above- a tree may be alive without displaying foliage ed) from "Mushrooms" by Thomas Laessoe published by Dorling Kindersley.Also guys I don't think natural amphetamines like muscarine (?) would occur without them. I WAS going to ask some questions about indigenous (British) psilocybes.Actually reading the literature has brought to my attention a number of species that I have never encountered -at least in the wild or,knowingly,anywhere else-.Cyanacens I was aware of,however;squamosa,merdaria,caerulipes,coprophilia and a number of others would appear to be possible British residents.I will view the gallery again,thanks Mushroom John for the cyanacens pickies,for photos of these.May I also ask that if you have any picks of same you upload those we establish here ARE U.K indigenous?Thank you.


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Lonewolf (09/15/03 08:03 AM)


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Silverwolf]
    #1918791 - 09/15/03 06:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

coprophila are not active.
thanks for the information. what kind of sugars do the fungi recieve?


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1919048 - 09/15/03 07:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Lonewolf if you are into psilocybes which have been recorded in England you might want to add to your list Psilocybe percevalii, which is extremely scarce but recorded a few times (recently) on woodchips. Probably a non-native species in the process of naturalizing. I don't think it's active - it looks more like a species of fleshy Stropharia.
Also I think the word is still out on whether the strain of UK cyanescens that has spread so dramatically in recent decades (perhaps largely clonally) is descended from the native P. cyanescens (which may of course itself been an early invading non-native), or is actually a more recent introduction from the Pacific Northwest. So the question of whether you should regard these mushrooms as 'indigenous' remains.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: pluteus]
    #1919410 - 09/15/03 09:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

P. cyanescens was ddiscovered first in England in Kew Gardens in Surrey in the middle 1940s and named psilocybe cyanescens. It is in the PNW and most of Europe and Russia and even in China. It is indegenous to the northern hemisphere. It has nothing to do with coming to the PNW or going to the UK. IT was all over those parts of the globe.

Mj


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1919420 - 09/15/03 09:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

MagmaManiac, the sugars received by the fungus in a mycorrhizal relationship are dependent on the plant host. Different plants produce different sugars through photosynthesis. The plant provides some of the sugars is produces to the fungus in return for various nutrients the fungus absorbs from the earth - mostly water and things like nitrates and phosphates.

Happy mushrooming!


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1919534 - 09/15/03 10:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

MJ, you must know that there are clear differences between the mushroom populations referred to as "Psilocybe cyanescens" in Europe and the Pacific Northwest. There are glaring microscopic distinctions.

I happen to work in Kew Gardens, Surrey, and the mycologists here are in agreement that the issue of whether the type specimen of P. cyanescens collected in these gardens in 1946 represents the same strain or species of P. cyanescens in the PNW is still very much open. Furthermore, many think a much more aggressive strain has colonized England from elsewhere recently.

Many of our striking woodchip mushroom species have been shown to have invaded recently from overseas populations, e.g. Stropharia aurantiaca & Clathrus archeri.

Anyway, if this species was first described in 1946, how can you be be so certain about its natural distribution before modern times?

You say "It has nothing to do with coming to the PNW or going to the UK"

To reach this conclusion definitively you would need to conduct a phylogenetic study of population dynamics in this species. Have you?? There is already much evidence to suggest that the large bulk of P. cyanescens colonies in the UK are clonal and this clone might have relatively recent origins from overseas.

I don't mean to step on your toes, I am just presenting the view of the English mycological community about this species, of which you might not have been aware. I am however a little surprised that you would make such solid conclusions about the population structure of this species based only on the fact that (a) it is now very widespread and (b) it was first described in England. There is a lot more to it than that.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: pluteus]
    #1920057 - 09/16/03 12:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

WEl;l there are over foive hundred reported locations for P. cyanescens in Germany. They are the same as those found in the PNW.

The Collections gathered by Roy Watling in the royal botanical Gardens in Edinburgh are the same P. cyanescens as found in the PNW. I know because I picked them there.

As for more and more crops showing up in newer places only is a rwsult of a partiicular woodchip or hardwood mulch which the spores are attracted to and the repiling of mulch piles which eventually go to landscapers spread the mulch into nerwer areas thus spreading the shrooms into lareger populartions.

I really do not need to explain my reasons for knowning so and that is allt here is to that.

I have watched their growth for thirty years throughout Europe, northern Africa, the UK and in the PNW and other regions. including BC, Canada and in Holland where they wetre named Hyphomolma cyanescens. Each species has certain characteristics which are variable but they are still the same mushroom.

Have a shroomy day.

mj

I need not further elanborate about those collections. the only real confusion was her in the midle 1970s when the PNW's leading mycologist Daniel Stunztrzz identified numerous collections of P. stuntzii as P. cyanescens, although the mushrooms had not yet been identified and named as P. cyanescens.

Stijve copnducted private analysis and some taxonomy on collections from France and germany and also agreed they were the same mushroom form the PNW. Only Kreigelsteiner tried to assume that P. bohemica, P. cyanecens, P. serbica and p. maire were actually all one mushroom but they are not.

The Waskefield mushrooms is the same P. cyanescens in the usa.

By the way, I have fotographs by Arthur Brack and ALbert Hofmann of both in vitro grown collections of P. caerulescens and P. cubensis which also have upturned wavy caps similar to those of P. cyanescens. I have picked them in Scotland and they sure as hell are macroscopically exactrly like the P. cyanescens I have been collecting for thirty years.


mj
And while they were discovered and botanically named from Kew Gardens in Surrey int he middle forties, does not mean they are currently growing there.

WE have had areas in Seattle where some shrooms grew for ten years in a particular spot due to the annual replanting of woodchips and bark-mulch. at one time P. stuntzii's grew in about 70 percent of all new lawns and almost all alderwood mulchbeds had yearly crops of P. cyansescens and P. baeocystis. Now with the end of clear-cuts int his region and with the disappearance of pasturelands being replaced with Boing one story non-poluting office buildings, many patches are now gone with some lawns producing for two to three years until the nutrients are gone formt he soils and from the woodchip garden beds. and the disappearance of alder as a primary mulch in gardens and the replaced ment of cedar which does not support the growth of P. cyanescens or the red rif shag mulch used in the last five years.

mj

I havew a graph somewhere in my files of P. cyanescens locations in Germany created by Gartz and two other mycologists and is as yet unpublished. I have been looking for it for months. But then I have five filing cabinets with four drawers of papers in each cabinet and thousands of pages and do not have time to go diging for petty papers.

I wanted to post a chang and mills paper for blue meanie but he insisted I mail one to him. Since I could not find my copy in my files on Australia I went tot he U of W and paid 15 cents a papge, then when i wanted to scan it he insisted i mail it to him instead. so I then had to go to a regular copy shop here for ten cents a copy and then three dollars to mail it to him. . Now some speech narator is talking to me from my fucking computer. I do not have time to explain this shit.

goodbye


Edited by mjshroomer (09/16/03 12:48 AM)


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OfflinePaid
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1920549 - 09/16/03 04:36 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Kew is a funny place to call anything showing up there native, as
so much plant and soil matter has been imported from all over the globe to that one spot.
I think its quite likely that there are many fungus species using
that site as a steping stone into england, same with any botanical
garden.

Also you are right mj, wood chip mulch is much more common, and
I know of at least 2 council wood chip piles that  have been
inoculated with PNW P. cyan spawn. These piles are both in the
50 ton range, and are spread about all over there local areas.
So this could be one reason of the sudden increase of P. cyan :wink:

In fact i may know of 3 piles now.


--------------------



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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Paid]
    #1920617 - 09/16/03 05:27 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Lovely,lovely but where oh sage WHERE?What is the difference between this and the -pre-shroomably- inferior varities of woodchip?Having NEVER picked (blue mushrooms sold too me in a bag as "Mexican" whilst I was a student at University in the mid-eighties , were "we" speculated at the time, probably p.cyanacens) cyanacens I would like some advice on where to look.Do they like relatively shady sites or do they prefer more direct sunlight?What types of softwoods do they prefer as a growth medium?Some grow on pasture,how much moisture content and what types of animal dung are prefered?Also I have no idea of doseage.YES the first time I heard a latin name for them I was told they were "Hyphaloma".Regarding the amanita (s ?);thanks for the sugars info,I "KNEW" this I just hadn't become properly cognisant of the fact.You see this sugar provision is an ESSENTIAL part of the process!Does anyone know how the resulting muscarine/ammonia package varies chemicaly as a result?Thanks guys back soon!    :eyemouth:


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


Edited by Lonewolf (09/16/03 06:13 AM)


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Offlinepluteus
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Re: British Indigenous [Re: Silverwolf]
    #1920964 - 09/16/03 11:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

MJ

"As for more and more crops showing up in newer places only is a rwsult of a partiicular woodchip or hardwood mulch which the spores are attracted to and the repiling of mulch piles which eventually go to landscapers spread the mulch into nerwer areas thus spreading the shrooms into lareger populartions."

What you say only supports my view. This mushroom has spread around a lot, due to the increasing popularity of woodchip mulch. Nothing new there - the woodchip bed phenomenon has been thoroughly documented in the past few years in various mycological journals. The mulch in gardens like Kew is indeed a stepping stone for exotic species. But in the case of P. cyanescens, where has it spread from and where to? You say nothing about that.

"The Collections gathered by Roy Watling in the royal botanical Gardens in Edinburgh are the same P. cyanescens as found in the PNW. I know because I picked them there."

So where is your evidence that the Edinburgh colony did not originate in the PNW, then? And when you say "the same P. cyanescens", you mean "morphologically identical P. cyanescens" or something to that effect. Much more important are genetic differences that will explain the biogeography of this species. This is 2003, molecular techniques in agaricology have arrived, and you can't just look at a mushroom's morphology and make a statement like "these are the exact same mushrooms as X or Y" - haven't you ever heard of cryptic species?? Morphological mushroom taxonomists are a dying breed.

I am, however, not thinking along the lines that there are several species called P. cyanescens. I am just trying to point out that those you have picked over the last 30 years in the UK may well have originated from elsewhere, and hence not 'indigenous'.

"The Waskefield mushrooms is the same P. cyanescens in the usa."

Ditto what I said above. In any case, there are important anatomical differences too. E.g. the specimens in the Wakefield type collection have no/very scarce cystidia on gill faces, whereas PNW cyanescens have abundant gill cystidia.

"And while they were discovered and botanically named from Kew Gardens in Surrey int he middle forties, does not mean they are currently growing there."

Oh no? hehehehe Have you been here recently? (don't think about it people, the Kew constabulary are watching you)

In conclusion, I stand by everything I said, and you really can't cite old morphological papers as an argument. What I am suggesting cannot be properly addressed by looking at microscopic features. Despite all you have said, the distinct possibility remains that P. cyanescens, or the vast majority of its colonies in the UK, are not indigenous.


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