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Sheekle
FREE BURKE



Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 53,153
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"Arguing?" 3
#19105326 - 11/08/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sometimes when talking to people with opposing opinions the phrase "I don't wanna argue" will make it's way into the conversation, as if it would be better to not talk at all rather than tread with a hint of uncertainty as to whether things will turn out in the most personally preferable way or not. There also seems to be an underlying suggestion that the reason most people "argue" with each other is for the sake of "being right" or "having power" rather than trying to come to a general consensus conclusion as to what the best course of action for the collective whole to choose is. I think it's all very ironic and funny, those earth humans really are quite the bunch
-------------------- "Ur cat died because he hated u" - Koods "I hope JSB kicks your ass one day." - Vandago "you are the biggest 'internet guy' I have ever come across"- Jokeshopbeard "The more I see you post the more I realize you're just this fuckin tie dye loser who trolls the Shroomery 24/7." - Herbologist "Sheekle you cannot vile the dice of bullshit you have posted on this forum over the years, I like databases" - thelastoneleft "or maybe i just come from a blood line of superior intelligence" - trees R.I.P Kelsy, ?/?/?? - 6/11/16
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: "Arguing?" [Re: Sheekle] 2
#19106200 - 11/08/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is typical when people have an irrational position and realize this, they might be insecure about it or have a history of being in the wrong logically speaking, parenting and childhood matters in regards to security as well. Unfortunately, being logically irrational puts too much pressure on the ego and pride as it might turn out fatal in extreme cases, the price of being 'wrong' is too high for most people to argue.
I wrote some about this here.
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Could you elaborate on how faults are connected to death? That's interesting. I've never thought about that.
Faults equal varying risks of death.
FAULT:
a. A character weakness b. Something that impairs or detracts from physical perfection c. A mistake d. A minor offense or misdeed.
From our ancestors chasing the woods for food to Americans fighting towel heads. Or in less critical situations such as messing up at work increasing the risk of getting fired, which again could make you economically vulnerable. This is even the core to when your friend is wrong in regards to subjects of no actual importance, due to this he/she reacts rather irrational.
A character weakness is in other words vulnerability and being vulnerable means death which is mans root to fear, hence being wrong is fearful and no one want to experience fear. This is why you see most people react nutty or anxiously when being wrong.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: "Arguing?" [Re: Sheekle]
#19108280 - 11/08/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was thinking similarly today. People don't listen, they're really just waiting to talk (not all the time but generally IMO)
Both cases are power trips.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,680
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Re: "Arguing?" [Re: cez]
#19108972 - 11/09/13 03:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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arguing is mean gardening is better
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: "Arguing?" [Re: Sheekle]
#19109859 - 11/09/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I once worked with a guy who always had to be right. When he wasn't, he'd make shit up. He knew a little bit of a few languages, but tried to impress people that he was a genius, fluent in several languages. He once responded to a comment I made about LSD by saying that it was made from the blood of schizophrenic people. I corrected him, saying that he'd mistaken adrenochrome for LSD. He was adamant, and got all loud and clenched. I was stunned by this dynamic. I told him calmly that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that I was aware of how LSD was made, indeed, I corresponded with Albert Hofmann briefly in the 1980s. He stormed out of the teacher's lounge. He was an interesting man though, too bad this need to be right poisoned his whole personality. He once invited me to a lab where he and some guys would buy up abrasive wheels and paper from jewelers, and recover the gold dust from them. I watched him melt a large nugget in a bone crucible. He gave me a bone crucible which I still have after 20+ years, knowing my interest in alchemy. Nevertheless, he always had to feel superior. The older I get, the more mind-blowing correction gets. I mean, if someone corrects me, and I realize that my mind had been entertaining a falsehood for years, one that I may have passed to others, I feel liberated, not offended, even if I do feel a little embarrassed.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
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Strange. It doesn't seem like an uncommon thing either; I can think of a couple of people who are like that.
I must admit that I will often notice after the fact that I couldn't admit to being wrong and tried to argue my way out of it with some sort of strange logic. Doesn't happen too much but I have noticed it.
What do you think fuels this need to be right, to appear to know everything?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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I think it is a psychology that is rooted in the Manipura (Navel) chakra, Alfred Adler's 'Individual Psychology,' that centers on the Nietzschean "Will-to-power," Success vs. Failure, Inferiority vs. Superiority. In other words Ego Psychology. Combativeness is built into the personality that is dominated by the Manipura chakra and all the forms that these motives take.
The surrender to an opponent in an argument requires humility, a quality of the Anahata or Heart chakra. Surrender sacrifices one's ego. But the ego doesn't bow to the opponent, it bows to truth. If the words of your opponent embody greater truth than your own, and you realize this, you have, painful as it is to one's egoic pride, transcended your own egotism and accepted truth. This is one example of the expression "the truth hurts." Arguing for the sake of arguing is just foolishness, it's usually two bullshitters who really don't even know what they're talking about. Arguing to arrive at the truth of a matter has its place. But those who are trapped in the orbit of the Manipura motives are unable to transcend to the next level of awareness. They'll fight, right or wrong. It's all about feeling victorious even if your opponent is in the right.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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lolwut
bad motherfucker


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 2,782
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Re: "Arguing?" [Re: Sheekle]
#19116268 - 11/10/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sheekle said: Sometimes when talking to people with opposing opinions the phrase "I don't wanna argue" will make it's way into the conversation, as if it would be better to not talk at all rather than tread with a hint of uncertainty as to whether things will turn out in the most personally preferable way or not. There also seems to be an underlying suggestion that the reason most people "argue" with each other is for the sake of "being right" or "having power" rather than trying to come to a general consensus conclusion as to what the best course of action for the collective whole to choose is. I think it's all very ironic and funny, those earth humans really are quite the bunch
...
-------------------- Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...
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birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
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Quote:
I think it is a psychology that is rooted in the Manipura (Navel) chakra, Alfred Adler's 'Individual Psychology,' that centers on the Nietzschean "Will-to-power," Success vs. Failure, Inferiority vs. Superiority. In other words Ego Psychology. Combativeness is built into the personality that is dominated by the Manipura chakra and all the forms that these motives take.
The surrender to an opponent in an argument requires humility, a quality of the Anahata or Heart chakra. Surrender sacrifices one's ego. But the ego doesn't bow to the opponent, it bows to truth. If the words of your opponent embody greater truth than your own, and you realize this, you have, painful as it is to one's egoic pride, transcended your own egotism and accepted truth. This is one example of the expression "the truth hurts." Arguing for the sake of arguing is just foolishness, it's usually two bullshitters who really don't even know what they're talking about. Arguing to arrive at the truth of a matter has its place. But those who are trapped in the orbit of the Manipura motives are unable to transcend to the next level of awareness. They'll fight, right or wrong. It's all about feeling victorious even if your opponent is in the right.
I don't know anything about chakras but this made a lot of sense for sure.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Here is a useful summary of motives connected to the 7 chakras of the Hindu system, without the religious, mythic, and occult correspondences. The sequence runs from 1-7, anus, genitals, navel, heart, throat, forehead, crown of head. Very old, very important system of psychology and spirituality.
THE SEVEN CENTERS [CHAKRAS] OF CONSCIOUSNESS
1. THE SECURITY CENTER This Center makes you preoccupied with food, shelter, or whatever you equate with your personal security. This programming forces your consciousness to be dominated by your continuous battle to get “enough”from the world in order to feel secure.
2. THE SENSATION CENTER This Center is concerned with finding happiness in life by providing yourself with more and better pleasurable sensations and activities. For many people, sex is the most appealing of all sensations. Other addictive sensations may include the sound of music, the taste of food, etc.
3. THE POWER CENTER When your consciousness is focused on this Center, you are concerned with dominating people and situations and increasing your prestige, wealth, and pride -- in addition to thousands of more subtle forms of hierarchy, manipulation, and control.
4. THE LOVE CENTER At this Center you are transcending subject-object relationships and arelearning to see the world with the feelings and harmonies of flowing acceptance. You see yourself in everyone -- and everyone in yourself. You feel compassion for the suffering of those caught in the dramas of security, sensation, and power. You are beginning to love and accept everyone unconditionally -- even yourself.
5. THE CORNUCOPIA CENTER When your consciousness is illuminated by this Center, you experience the friendliness of the world you are creating. You begin to realize that you’ve always lived in a perfect world. To the degree that you still have addictions,the perfection lies in giving you the experience you need to get free of your emotion-backed demands. As you reprogram your addictions, the perfection will be experienced as a continuous enjoyment of the here and now in your life. As you become more loving and accepting, the world becomes a “hornof plenty” that gives you more than you need to be happy.
6. THE CONSCIOUS-AWARENESS CENTER It is liberating to have a Center from which your Conscious-awareness watches your body and mind perform on the lower five centers. This is a meta-center from which you non-judgmentally witness the drama of your body and mind. From this Center of Centers, you learn to impartially observe your social roles and life games from a place that is free from fear and vulnerability.
7. THE COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS CENTER When you live fully in the Sixth Center of Consciousness, you are ready to transcend self-awareness and become pure awareness. At this ultimate level,you are one with everything -- you are love, peace, energy, beauty, wisdom,clarity, effectiveness, and oneness. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17658844/Handbook-to-Higher-Consciousness-Ken-Keyes-Jr
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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birdland

Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 2,202
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Cool, this reminded me I read about it a bit in Be Here Now. I find it interesting that #2 contains activities like sex, music and food appreciation. I find a lot of these things a great part of life personally and I don't know how well I'd get by without them. Maybe sex because I don't do a lot of it anyway and that's not much of an issue but surely spending your time appreciating good food and good music is time well spent? Just assuming that #2 is a lower form of consciousness according to the system and the idea is to progress upwards?
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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I think the idea is that each level includes yet transcends the ones below it.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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2nd chakra entails the Freudian Pleasure Principle. It is also survival of the species, which follows the self-preservation motive of the 1st chakra. In the Tibetan Buddhist chakra systems, the 1st and 2nd are usually combined into one Root Center, paralleling Freud's 'anal-genital complex,' as well as the Death [Thanatos] Instinct and Life [Eros] Instinct, respectively. And the 6th and 7th centers are combined into one Brain Center, yielding 5 centers.
It is a particular prejudice that values the centers as higher vs. lower. The centers from the navel down represent Earth-bound motives. The centers from the Throat upward represent the Heavenly motives. The Heart stands between both realms and represents the human realm and participates in both Earthly and Heavenly motives. Most human beings are 'bottom-heavy' in terms of which motives predominate in the personality. The motives are invariant and universal, but the different percentages of each motive determines the individuality of each person.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said: I think the idea is that each level includes yet transcends the ones below it. 
I think that is true of the notion of transcendence in general. The 'higher' level of awareness includes that which came before, but exceeds their boundaries. I'm just trying to isolate the 'natural' human motives associated with each psychophysical locus, prior to an experience of Unification at the Brain Center. Then the Ascent Towards Universality reverses and flows back downward in a Decent Towards Realization. Then 'the dewdrop slips into the Shining Sea' of Infinity, then there appears the Infinite as a 'Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart.'
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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absols
Stranger
Registered: 11/10/13
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compromises are the reason of what bring everything to worse
things must be true to be constantly healthy, compromises so what pleases you for a second is nothing at all while yourself is not that nothing at all either
what matter is to respect others privacy wills and self free opinions
to me arguing is the right to fight, when it is through language of words that dont kill anything that is why who dont want to argue are meaning not willing to fight
arguing cant be for another thing to create in mind when everything is its objective fact, arguing is only about being different to a very large extent, then it is to say it out of oneself, when anyone is forced to be a living with everyone else
Edited by absols (11/12/13 07:28 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Here is a useful summary of motives connected to the 7 chakras of the Hindu system, without the religious, mythic, and occult correspondences. The sequence runs from 1-7, anus, genitals, navel, heart, throat, forehead, crown of head. Very old, very important system of psychology and spirituality.
THE SEVEN CENTERS [CHAKRAS] OF CONSCIOUSNESS
1. THE SECURITY CENTER This Center makes you preoccupied with food, shelter, or whatever you equate with your personal security. This programming forces your consciousness to be dominated by your continuous battle to get “enough”from the world in order to feel secure.
2. THE SENSATION CENTER This Center is concerned with finding happiness in life by providing yourself with more and better pleasurable sensations and activities. For many people, sex is the most appealing of all sensations. Other addictive sensations may include the sound of music, the taste of food, etc.
3. THE POWER CENTER When your consciousness is focused on this Center, you are concerned with dominating people and situations and increasing your prestige, wealth, and pride -- in addition to thousands of more subtle forms of hierarchy, manipulation, and control.
4. THE LOVE CENTER At this Center you are transcending subject-object relationships and arelearning to see the world with the feelings and harmonies of flowing acceptance. You see yourself in everyone -- and everyone in yourself. You feel compassion for the suffering of those caught in the dramas of security, sensation, and power. You are beginning to love and accept everyone unconditionally -- even yourself.
5. THE CORNUCOPIA CENTER When your consciousness is illuminated by this Center, you experience the friendliness of the world you are creating. You begin to realize that you’ve always lived in a perfect world. To the degree that you still have addictions,the perfection lies in giving you the experience you need to get free of your emotion-backed demands. As you reprogram your addictions, the perfection will be experienced as a continuous enjoyment of the here and now in your life. As you become more loving and accepting, the world becomes a “hornof plenty” that gives you more than you need to be happy.
6. THE CONSCIOUS-AWARENESS CENTER It is liberating to have a Center from which your Conscious-awareness watches your body and mind perform on the lower five centers. This is a meta-center from which you non-judgmentally witness the drama of your body and mind. From this Center of Centers, you learn to impartially observe your social roles and life games from a place that is free from fear and vulnerability.
7. THE COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS CENTER When you live fully in the Sixth Center of Consciousness, you are ready to transcend self-awareness and become pure awareness. At this ultimate level,you are one with everything -- you are love, peace, energy, beauty, wisdom,clarity, effectiveness, and oneness. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17658844/Handbook-to-Higher-Consciousness-Ken-Keyes-Jr
Hey did Ken Keyes lift this, whole cloth, from those guys?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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It just seems like a fruitier version of Maslow's "hierarchy of needs" to me. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Loc: underbelly
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Yeah, btw Keyes "Handbook to Higher Consciousness" is the best book I've read on the subject.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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GoldenEye
...



Registered: 05/24/13
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Last seen: 3 years, 27 days
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said: It just seems like a fruitier version of Maslow's "hierarchy of needs" to me. 
Mind you, that is a laypersons greatly redacted version of Hindu Tantric Yoga. There are many hierarchies that can be placed next to each other and correlated. Bill Wilson's 12-Steps are another example. The Steps serve to remove the gross obstacles at first, then work through the various selves: psychosocial, moral, and spiritual (in one breakdown of them). The 12-Steps parallel Patanjali's stages of Yoga wherein the grosser external psychophysical obstacles are likewise eliminated first before one can turn inward and refine one's psychospiritual development.
Remember: "God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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