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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19109210 - 11/09/13 06:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

StateOfMind404 said:
are bitcoins taxable currency ?
i mean sure, if you transfer them into USD





I'm pretty sure I read in Forbes not too long ago that a bunch of old rich dudes were transferring money into BTC to avoid taxes, so I'm not sure if BTC is a non-taxable item, or if it's more of just a way to hide the money.  I think if the IRS knows you have money, they're going to want a piece of it.

Either way, Ulbricht will likely be famous forever.  Part of me thinks if I were this fucked, I'd just go down as a martyr for the drug war and never give up that $35M regardless of the jail time.  In keeping with the Capone mention, Ulbricht may be written into history books along side Capone for this kind of thing.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19109893 - 11/09/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
He's fucked.  Only hope is jury nullification, but no jury's going to nullify a conviction for a man connected to selling heroin, cocaine, etc.







Well, if they're careful about jury selection, then you're probably right. Of course, someone like me might be willing to say "not guilty" on general principle in a case like this. But someone like me would probably never make it on the jury.


Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him, even if there are people on the jury who are highly sympathetic to the drug issues....


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19110583 - 11/09/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him




It was not "alleged" solicitation. He actually transferred bitcoins over to the feds wallet for the hit to take place, and asked for photographic evidence for proof of the hit


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19110908 - 11/09/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

LOL, isn't this the same government that has told its agencies to fabricate evidence/cases ? this is of course linked to the DEA and the NSA, but im not going to put it past the FBI as well in this case either considering the situation


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19111364 - 11/09/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

StateOfMind404 said:
LOL, isn't this the same government that has told its agencies to fabricate evidence/cases ? this is of course linked to the DEA and the NSA, but im not going to put it past the FBI as well in this case either considering the situation





If you read the criminal complaint it is pretty cut and dry. People want to make him out to be a saint, but the fact remains he tried to have people killed on more than one occasion


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19111424 - 11/09/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That may be, but it still has to be proven in a court of law. innocent until proven guilty.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19111497 - 11/09/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

im sure he used the escrow system and encrypted those messages to the hitman. he can easily say it wasn't him if they don't find any evidence that he wrote it from his computer.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19112181 - 11/09/13 09:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
im sure he used the escrow system and encrypted those messages to the hitman. he can easily say it wasn't him if they don't find any evidence that he wrote it from his computer.





Except they have his cpu and a lot of his encryption info, have you read the criminal complaint?


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19112188 - 11/09/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i have not. but feel free to post it


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19114247 - 11/10/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him




It was not "alleged" solicitation. He actually transferred bitcoins over to the feds wallet for the hit to take place, and asked for photographic evidence for proof of the hit







Were you actually there? For both sides? Do you have proof? Are you omniscient? Should I put on underwear when I'm typing at you?


I've read most of the publicly released paperwork, thank you.


Do you understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means?


Alleged solicitation.


Do you believe everything the federal government says? Like marijuana is a very harmful, dangerous and evil drug, but antidepressants and amphetamines are suitable for widespread use in children? You do realize they've gotten "the wrong man" before? Shit does happen. Either way, there is such thing as due process, and "innocent until proven guilty.




"Because I said so"  =/=  PROOF



The feds alleged that this event happened. Even if we take their word as to the factuality of this event, it is still an unproven allegation that the person who transferred the bitcoin for the hit, aka the online identity known as "Dread Pirate Roberts" is one and the same person as Ross Ulbricht.



I do assume, of course, that the feds have some type of "proof" otherwise they would not risk trying the case. However, until this man has had his day in court, I will say "alleged" and "allegedly."


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19116891 - 11/10/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him




It was not "alleged" solicitation. He actually transferred bitcoins over to the feds wallet for the hit to take place, and asked for photographic evidence for proof of the hit







Were you actually there? For both sides? Do you have proof? Are you omniscient? Should I put on underwear when I'm typing at you?


I've read most of the publicly released paperwork, thank you.


Do you understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means?


Alleged solicitation.


Do you believe everything the federal government says? Like marijuana is a very harmful, dangerous and evil drug, but antidepressants and amphetamines are suitable for widespread use in children? You do realize they've gotten "the wrong man" before? Shit does happen. Either way, there is such thing as due process, and "innocent until proven guilty.




"Because I said so"  =/=  PROOF



The feds alleged that this event happened. Even if we take their word as to the factuality of this event, it is still an unproven allegation that the person who transferred the bitcoin for the hit, aka the online identity known as "Dread Pirate Roberts" is one and the same person as Ross Ulbricht.



I do assume, of course, that the feds have some type of "proof" otherwise they would not risk trying the case. However, until this man has had his day in court, I will say "alleged" and "allegedly."





You obviously have not read the criminal complaint. Ross Ulbricht made some pretty stupid mistakes very early on. And no, I do not believe everything the government tells me, but it is pretty obvious he is DPR.

The dude posted shit about silk road days within it coming online. He posted on various boards including this one and a tech one about pgp encryption and tor and whatnot. He used the same screen name for different sites, a screen name that was linked to his email address, WHICH WAS HIS REAL NAME!

ANd after reading the complaint it is pretty clear that he tried to order the hit, though I do think he was tricked into it a little bit. But he haggled with the price stating that he had to order a hit before and got a better deal that time . . .


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19116895 - 11/10/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the glove wont fit, end of story guys


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19116906 - 11/10/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
the glove wont fit, end of story guys





It's gonna fit, dude is FUCKED

Not that I am happy about it, but dude is FUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED!!!


--------------------
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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19116914 - 11/10/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

no he isn't end of story  :foreverbatman:


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19116990 - 11/10/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
no he isn't end of story  :foreverbatman:





Lol okay


hes fucked


--------------------
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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19120161 - 11/11/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You obviously have not read the criminal complaint. Ross Ulbricht made some pretty stupid mistakes very early on. And no, I do not believe everything the government tells me, but it is pretty obvious he is DPR.

The dude posted shit about silk road days within it coming online. He posted on various boards including this one and a tech one about pgp encryption and tor and whatnot. He used the same screen name for different sites, a screen name that was linked to his email address, WHICH WAS HIS REAL NAME!

ANd after reading the complaint it is pretty clear that he tried to order the hit, though I do think he was tricked into it a little bit. But he haggled with the price stating that he had to order a hit before and got a better deal that time . . .








I told you that I have read it. It seems like you obviously have not understood my post.


Due process. Innocent until proven guilty ---->  Day In Court.  End of story (for now.)


Yes, I read about all the stuff that you mentioned. You don't find it just a tiny bit odd, that a guy who was smart enough to set up the silk road would make such major rookie mistakes as singing up for forums where he would talk about silk-road and related stuff, with a g-mail account linked to his real name? That's epic levels of stupid. And it doesn't quite make sense to me. Either it's not him, and someone is setting him up as the fall guy, or he had a subconscious desire to get caught or something. Either that or he really is brilliant in some ways, but horrible with attention to detail, or I don't quite know....  What I do know is that the story I'm getting from the govt's papers doesn't entirely make sense to me, and I'm waiting to hear more.



And back to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing for a minute.... anyone can set up a g-mail account with my name. That proves nothing. What other proof linking DPR to Ulbricht have you actually seen / read?  The ID thing, I guess could be one. But that could also fit in with the scenario of someone trying to frame Ulbricht, and most of it is based on the word of various government employees. That one did also strike me as a bit odd. Kind of a dumb, rookie move, to the point where it seems a little strange he'd make such a mistake. But less so, than the other one.



I have a "fun" little off the wall theory / speculation. I'm going to assume you've seen the longish "interview" video where Ulbricht talks with his old friend, from before the bust and all that stuff...?  (If not, go check it out.)  Anyway, my theory (which I'm not alone in, as I have read one or two other comments online speculating to this effect)is.... what if it's the friend that is actually "DPR" and Ulbricht is the planned fall guy, the patsy, and has no real relation to the road?  Or what if the friend is actually DPR, and it was agreed that Ulbricht would serve as the fall guy in such a situation?  Or he was an employee of the road, but not DPR, and he's being framed? 


A bit off the wall? Perhaps. But it would explain some of the really dumb "rookie" mistakes in a way that seems to actually make sense.




Of course, this is all pure speculation based on some media reports and claims from government documents. Then again, that's all you're doing, too. You're just doing it in concert with the official report. In attempt to show me that I'm wrong, you point to some of the "big mistakes" that Ulbricht made. But I repeat, these are allegations as he has not had his day in court. If these were legally considered proven facts, he'd already be sentenced and serving his time. That's not how the system works.



And therefore, my initial point still stands. IMHO you're wrong to question my use of the word "alleged."  You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. But I have respect for due process, and for the concept of "innocent until proven guilty."  Have you ever been accused of a crime you did not commit? I have. It is one of the most frustrating, depressing, powerless, enraging experiences you can have, to know that someone is making inaccurate claims about you, that could get you in serious trouble. To know that 9 times out of 10 the defendant is NOT given the benefit of the doubt, by pretty much anyone. We often ASSUME that if someone is being charged with a crime, they must be guilty. This is not right, either in a sense of morality or correctness. And that is why our system is set up the way it is. Mistakes happen. Sometimes they're railroaded by an overzealous prosecutor, etc. Sometimes they're framed. Sometimes they are honest mistakes.



And even if not. Even if it's all 100% true, and accurate, It has NOT yet been proven in court, and until it is, Ross Ulbricht, like any defendant, is legally considered an INNOCENT man, innocent of the crimes he ALLEGEDLY committed.


tl;dr


Believe what you want, but even the law says he's innocent at this point, until the allegations have been proven in court, and a decision is reached.


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OfflineOjom
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19120613 - 11/11/13 01:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You obviously have not read the criminal complaint. Ross Ulbricht made some pretty stupid mistakes very early on. And no, I do not believe everything the government tells me, but it is pretty obvious he is DPR.

The dude posted shit about silk road days within it coming online. He posted on various boards including this one and a tech one about pgp encryption and tor and whatnot. He used the same screen name for different sites, a screen name that was linked to his email address, WHICH WAS HIS REAL NAME!

ANd after reading the complaint it is pretty clear that he tried to order the hit, though I do think he was tricked into it a little bit. But he haggled with the price stating that he had to order a hit before and got a better deal that time . . .








I told you that I have read it. It seems like you obviously have not understood my post.


Due process. Innocent until proven guilty ---->  Day In Court.  End of story (for now.)


Yes, I read about all the stuff that you mentioned. You don't find it just a tiny bit odd, that a guy who was smart enough to set up the silk road would make such major rookie mistakes as singing up for forums where he would talk about silk-road and related stuff, with a g-mail account linked to his real name? That's epic levels of stupid. And it doesn't quite make sense to me. Either it's not him, and someone is setting him up as the fall guy, or he had a subconscious desire to get caught or something. Either that or he really is brilliant in some ways, but horrible with attention to detail, or I don't quite know....  What I do know is that the story I'm getting from the govt's papers doesn't entirely make sense to me, and I'm waiting to hear more.



And back to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing for a minute.... anyone can set up a g-mail account with my name. That proves nothing. What other proof linking DPR to Ulbricht have you actually seen / read?  The ID thing, I guess could be one. But that could also fit in with the scenario of someone trying to frame Ulbricht, and most of it is based on the word of various government employees. That one did also strike me as a bit odd. Kind of a dumb, rookie move, to the point where it seems a little strange he'd make such a mistake. But less so, than the other one.



I have a "fun" little off the wall theory / speculation. I'm going to assume you've seen the longish "interview" video where Ulbricht talks with his old friend, from before the bust and all that stuff...?  (If not, go check it out.)  Anyway, my theory (which I'm not alone in, as I have read one or two other comments online speculating to this effect)is.... what if it's the friend that is actually "DPR" and Ulbricht is the planned fall guy, the patsy, and has no real relation to the road?  Or what if the friend is actually DPR, and it was agreed that Ulbricht would serve as the fall guy in such a situation?  Or he was an employee of the road, but not DPR, and he's being framed? 


A bit off the wall? Perhaps. But it would explain some of the really dumb "rookie" mistakes in a way that seems to actually make sense.




Of course, this is all pure speculation based on some media reports and claims from government documents. Then again, that's all you're doing, too. You're just doing it in concert with the official report. In attempt to show me that I'm wrong, you point to some of the "big mistakes" that Ulbricht made. But I repeat, these are allegations as he has not had his day in court. If these were legally considered proven facts, he'd already be sentenced and serving his time. That's not how the system works.



And therefore, my initial point still stands. IMHO you're wrong to question my use of the word "alleged."  You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. But I have respect for due process, and for the concept of "innocent until proven guilty."  Have you ever been accused of a crime you did not commit? I have. It is one of the most frustrating, depressing, powerless, enraging experiences you can have, to know that someone is making inaccurate claims about you, that could get you in serious trouble. To know that 9 times out of 10 the defendant is NOT given the benefit of the doubt, by pretty much anyone. We often ASSUME that if someone is being charged with a crime, they must be guilty. This is not right, either in a sense of morality or correctness. And that is why our system is set up the way it is. Mistakes happen. Sometimes they're railroaded by an overzealous prosecutor, etc. Sometimes they're framed. Sometimes they are honest mistakes.



And even if not. Even if it's all 100% true, and accurate, It has NOT yet been proven in court, and until it is, Ross Ulbricht, like any defendant, is legally considered an INNOCENT man, innocent of the crimes he ALLEGEDLY committed.


tl;dr


Believe what you want, but even the law says he's innocent at this point, until the allegations have been proven in court, and a decision is reached.




The law does not say he is innocent. The law says he is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. There is a difference. LiquidGlass is already convinced he's guilty thus skipping this presumption of innocence. To say he is innocent at this point is a guess.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19120944 - 11/11/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well apparently you need to read it over again, or you did not read the whole thing.

He did not actually mention silk road on an account that was linked to his email. What he did was use the name altoid to post on various forums about silk road to get the name out there and tell people it was online.

Then he used the name altoid on a tech website. On that website he did not mention the silk road at all, and this was the website he had his email linked to. And then he changed his email link shortly after posting, but it was too late.


Not to mention him posting stuff like this to various social media sites:
Quote:

I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and agression amongst mankind. Just as slavery has been abolished most everywhere, I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end. The most widespread and systemic use of force is amongst institutions and governments, so this is my current point of effort.
The best way to change a government is to change the minds of the governed, however. To that end, I am creating an economic simulation to give people a first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without the systemic use of force.





He's fucked!


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OfflineWHOISDRO
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19120964 - 11/11/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

While your points remain valid, I don't think he's fucked when theres millions of dollars involved. The fbi could use him to their advantage, there not going to throw him away without squeezing every last bit of valuable information from him, so he might have some fighting ground :shrug:


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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: WHOISDRO]
    #19125006 - 11/12/13 05:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and agression amongst mankind. Just as slavery has been abolished most everywhere, I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end. The most widespread and systemic use of force is amongst institutions and governments, so this is my current point of effort.
The best way to change a government is to change the minds of the governed, however. To that end, I am creating an economic simulation to give people a first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without the systemic use of force.




Kinda makes it hard to believe that he would order hitmen to kill people.


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