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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 12 hours, 20 minutes
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: egodeathflux]
#19120596 - 11/11/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
egodeathflux said: Agar can be a messy, time wasting pain in the behind too.. For beginners, get a few grows under your belt, learn about sterile technique and then look into agar/plates/slants etc.

IMO agar is the way to go for anyone. No better way to learn than with agar where you can more directly see the results of your sterile technique. What's time consuming is using spores from a possibly unreliable vendor that are contaminated and growing them out only to lose your jars because you didn't catch the problem on agar first. I only wish I had started using from the beginning, I would have saved myself a lot of trouble.
You can use agar even with the PF tek by making LCs which are much more reliable than the LCs new cultivators often try making straight from spores.
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egodeathflux
Guttersnipe



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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: Kizzle]
#19120767 - 11/11/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I find LC far easier, quicker and less hassle than agar.. All of my family work in lab environments so I always have access to free and top notch agar tek materials.
I started out using grain, tried a few PF cakes out of interest after a couple of years, to say agar is the least likely to contam is just plain inaccurate though. They are not sealed the same way syringes/LCs/jars are, so of course they are more prone to environmental factors.
Agar is not the easiest thing to start with, or else everyone would do it and the entire Mush Cult forum would be angled toward it.
A difference of opinion perhaps, I am not saying it is incredibly complicated or doomed to failure without years of experience, but there are easier ways to ensure contam free grows the first few times IMO/IME.
-------------------- "Atrophic interludes weave through my life far too often, for me to fight the biggest enemies" "Standing on the corner of 5th and Vermouth"
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: egodeathflux]
#19120786 - 11/11/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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One major difference, you cannot transfer away from a contaminated LC like you can with an agar dish.
LC gets contaminated, you just wasted all that time and effort, because it must be tossed.
If an agar plate contaminates chances are you would be able to transfer away from it.
That fact alone should sell people on agar all day.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (11/11/13 02:09 PM)
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BubbleTea
New Age Shaman



Registered: 03/28/13
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Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: PussyFart]
#19120835 - 11/11/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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So where can I find the best easy to understand tek on agar, what it is, and how to use it?
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: BubbleTea]
#19120848 - 11/11/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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spaceman101
Friend to all


Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 11,726
Loc: In heaven bored as hell
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: BubbleTea]
#19120869 - 11/11/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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My mistake bodhisatta sorry Bro. Everyone who read the text I had written here disregard it I made a mistake.
Edited by spaceman101 (11/11/13 08:51 PM)
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egodeathflux
Guttersnipe



Registered: 02/02/10
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: PussyFart]
#19120961 - 11/11/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: One major difference, you cannot transfer away from a contaminated LC like you can with an agar dish.
LC gets contaminated, you just wasted all that time and effort, because it must be tossed.
If an agar plate contaminates chances are you would be able to transfer away from it.
That fact alone should sell people on agar all day.
If I see a contam in an agar dish, I toss it. I don't assume I can see every microbe and neatly remove it with a scalpel.. I have made dozens if not 100's of LC's, never had one contam. If you follow a sterile and strict procedure they are just as likely to be sterile as any agar dish, which at some point always has to be opened at least twice to an open air environment, the same is not true of an LC, which never has to be exposed to any contamination vectors if done correctly.
I really don't want to bicker about this, but facts are facts. You have a preference which I acknowledged previously and is fine, I am not trying to convince anyone not to try agar, just that there are absolutely, without argument, cleaner and more certain ways to create a sterile culture.
I've said all I have to say on the matter, I haven't contradicted you so carry arguing with yourself if you need to, just don't spread misleading information to growers who are just starting out.
-------------------- "Atrophic interludes weave through my life far too often, for me to fight the biggest enemies" "Standing on the corner of 5th and Vermouth"
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: egodeathflux]
#19121084 - 11/11/13 03:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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egodeathflux said: If I see a contam in an agar dish, I toss it. I don't assume I can see every microbe and neatly remove it with a scalpel..
That is your loss.
I have transferred away from hundreds of contams on agar.
You are not trying to remove contaminated microbes, we are removing healthy mycellium and transferring it to new media, with less microbes.
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egodeathflux said: If you follow a sterile and strict procedure they are just as likely to be sterile as any agar dish, which at some point always has to be opened at least twice to an open air environment, the same is not true of an LC, which never has to be exposed to any contamination vectors if done correctly.
Agar dishes do not get exposed to "open air"...no one does that.
The air from a Laminar Flow Hood is pretty much sterile, and there are really no contams blowing around in a still air box.
And no matter how much experience you have in sterile technique, you are always at the mercy of the inoculant.
And when dealing with spores, you know that the cap from which they came was most likely fruited in open air, which means there are most likely contams in with the spores as well.
This is why no spore print/syringe is ever 100% clean, and LC is the perfect breeding ground for everything "bad".
Unless you are making the LC from a clean agar wedge, there is no way to know for sure that it is clean without shooting up test jars.
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egodeathflux said: I really don't want to bicker about this, but facts are facts. You have a preference which I acknowledged previously and is fine, I am not trying to convince anyone not to try agar, just that there are absolutely, without argument, cleaner and more certain ways to create a sterile culture.
Like what?
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egodeathflux said: I've said all I have to say on the matter, I haven't contradicted you so carry arguing with yourself if you need to, just don't spread misleading information to growers who are just starting out. 
What misleading info?
LCs made from anything but a clean agar wedge is risky....period.
There is nothing misleading in what I said.
You cannot "clean up" a contaminated LC, but you can on agar.
You cannot know for sure your inoculant is clean, but you can on agar.
You cannot isolate strains in LC, but you can on agar.
Agar seems better all the way around.
These are facts, and as you said, facts are facts.
Please explain to me what was misleading......
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (11/11/13 03:08 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: egodeathflux]
#19121124 - 11/11/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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egodeathflux said: If I see a contam in an agar dish, I toss it. I don't assume I can see every microbe and neatly remove it with a scalpel.. I have made dozens if not 100's of LC's, never had one contam. If you follow a sterile and strict procedure they are just as likely to be sterile as any agar dish, which at some point always has to be opened at least twice to an open air environment, the same is not true of an LC, which never has to be exposed to any contamination vectors if done correctly.

You do realize that every time you stick a SHIP you are exposing it as well and I would hardly call carefully opening a dish in a SAB exposing it to open air. If I opened a dish in open air I would call it immediately contamed anyway. Regardless, inoculating a LC with an ms syringe is pretty much asking for a contam IMO. MS syringes are not what I would call clean. I'm sure that we all have differences of opinion but, its my opinion that anyone claiming to have made 100's of LC's from ms solution and never had one contam is bullshitting me
I certainly don't have as much experience or access to lab materials as you claim to but, I can count on one finger the number of times I have been able to blame a contamed master on the wedge I used to inoculate. Conversely the only LC that I have ever been able to make work was inoculated with an agar wedge. At that point I decided that at least for cubensis, LC was an unnecessary step that was too easy to fuck up. Maybe that's just my noobishness showing but for this noob agar wedge = easy and clean, LC = risky crapshoot.
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egodeathflux
Guttersnipe



Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 3,854
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#19121220 - 11/11/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I make my LC's from grain.. A SAB contains air.. that is the same air that is in the surrounding environ. Of course there are contams in the air inside a box, anyone who disagrees is entirely ignorant of microbiology on the most fundamental level, which you guys obviously are not. You are however proceeding to bicker and pick wholes in statements I have not made, as well as make assumptions about how I make my LC's.
99% of us do not and never will have a flow hood.
We were not in any way discussing the advantages of strain isolation anywhere in this thread, stop throwing red herrings about. You are spoiling for a fight that just isn't there, sorry to disappoint, go vent your life issues elsewhere if you need to get aggression of your chest.
I stated clearly at least twice that I was not trying to dissuade anyone from trying agar. How has that been missed repeatedly??
Of every method I have used, I have had more contams on agar than anything else by a country mile. This is using the same glovebox/still air box as I do for everything else.
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I have transferred away from hundreds of contams on agar.
You clearly state yourself the hundreds of contams you have had on agar plates.. How do these occur with your flowhood and magical 100% SAB..?? As I said, I have never had a contaminated LC, ever, in 8+ years. Maybe your LC technique needs work, perhaps you spend too much time cutting contams a few mm away from your "clean" wedges to have mastered the far more simple practice of putting some honey in water and throwing it in a PC.. 
I am already being a liar, as I said I wasn't going to argue about this, continue to throw down wisdom from your agar towers, I won't be wasting my time reading it.
-------------------- "Atrophic interludes weave through my life far too often, for me to fight the biggest enemies" "Standing on the corner of 5th and Vermouth"
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: egodeathflux]
#19121324 - 11/11/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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egodeathflux said: I make my LC's from grain.. A SAB contains air.. that is the same air that is in the surrounding environ. Of course there are contams in the air inside a box, anyone who disagrees is entirely ignorant of microbiology on the most fundamental level, which you guys obviously are not. You are however proceeding to bicker and pick wholes in statements I have not made, as well as make assumptions about how I make my LC's.
We keep the walls of the SAB wet, which allows contams to stick to it, and we also let the air settle before going to work.
It is a lot cleaner than working in open air, but I am not going to argue aout this, as many people's experience blows your theory out of the water.
Making an LC from a fully colonized grain jar is not less risky.
You cannot see every grain to inspect it for microbes, so you cannot know that is is 100% clean or not.
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egodeathflux said: 99% of us do not and never will have a flow hood.
Totally agree.
I have no use for one, as I get 99-100% success rate in my SAB.
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egodeathflux said: I stated clearly at least twice that I was not trying to dissuade anyone from trying agar. How has that been missed repeatedly??
Nope...just trying to figure out your logic.
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egodeathflux said: Of every method I have used, I have had more contams on agar than anything else by a country mile. This is using the same glovebox/still air box as I do for everything else.
And your mistake was not transferring your clean mycellium away from them.
Instead you just tossed most likely perfectly salvageable cultures.
Anyone else would have made transfers to clean them up.
You sound butthurt.
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egodeathflux said:
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I have transferred away from hundreds of contams on agar.
You clearly state yourself the hundreds of contams you have had on agar plates.. How do these occur with your flowhood and magical 100% SAB..??
Easy, contaminated inoculant.
It does not matter how many contams you get with agar.
The entire point is that a contammed agar plate can be cleaned up, but an LC must be tossed.
All of my spore prints go straight to agar....just like everything else.
A lot of the contams were from faulty sterile procedures....I admit...but since I was able to save most of said cultures, it was a success.
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egodeathflux said: Maybe your LC technique needs work, perhaps you spend too much time cutting contams a few mm away from your "clean" wedges to have mastered the far more simple practice of putting some honey in water and throwing it in a PC.. 
A few mm's is too close, I try and shoot for at least 7.76755 mm of head space....lol.....now you're just trying too hard.
Sounds like someone who gave up on agar because he was ill informed about how to transfer away from contams....and now he realizes how many cultures he really did just throw away.
The search function proves the reliability of agar VS LCs....I need not post here anymore.
Just because you lack the confidence of doing something more complex than mixing honey with water and boiling it does not mean your method is better....it means u lack confidence.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (11/11/13 03:46 PM)
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Gymspawn
Stranger
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: PussyFart]
#19121392 - 11/11/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I know that you can isolate away from a contam try it since it proves itself but if your dish is completely overrun with contams with only small spots of healthy myc I'd say toss that.
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Posts: 22,502
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: Gymspawn]
#19121403 - 11/11/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Gymspawn said: but if your dish is completely overrun with contams with only small spots of healthy myc I'd say toss that.
I agree.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Gymspawn
Stranger
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: BubbleTea]
#19121635 - 11/11/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do they not have those syringes with a black liquid that they say has the ability to be frozen?
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Gymspawn
Stranger
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: Gymspawn]
#19121654 - 11/11/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Listen to notahacker he is wise in his works and I know if he is taking the time to explain this to you then by no means would he be making this up for shits and giggles of for another reason.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Supercharged Spore Syringe?? [Re: Gymspawn]
#19122167 - 11/11/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
egodeathflux said: I make my LC's from grain.. A SAB contains air.. that is the same air that is in the surrounding environ. Of course there are contams in the air inside a box, anyone who disagrees is entirely ignorant of microbiology on the most fundamental level, which you guys obviously are not. You are however proceeding to bicker and pick wholes in statements I have not made, as well as make assumptions about how I make my LC's.
99% of us do not and never will have a flow hood.
We were not in any way discussing the advantages of strain isolation anywhere in this thread, stop throwing red herrings about. You are spoiling for a fight that just isn't there, sorry to disappoint, go vent your life issues elsewhere if you need to get aggression of your chest.
I stated clearly at least twice that I was not trying to dissuade anyone from trying agar. How has that been missed repeatedly??
Of every method I have used, I have had more contams on agar than anything else by a country mile. This is using the same glovebox/still air box as I do for everything else.
Quote:
I have transferred away from hundreds of contams on agar.
You clearly state yourself the hundreds of contams you have had on agar plates.. How do these occur with your flowhood and magical 100% SAB..?? As I said, I have never had a contaminated LC, ever, in 8+ years. Maybe your LC technique needs work, perhaps you spend too much time cutting contams a few mm away from your "clean" wedges to have mastered the far more simple practice of putting some honey in water and throwing it in a PC.. 
I am already being a liar, as I said I wasn't going to argue about this, continue to throw down wisdom from your agar towers, I won't be wasting my time reading it. 
Some people inoculate agar starting with spores, clone tissue, or even wild specimen. Isolate away from the contams and work with good dishes.
Steve Irwin had good experiences putting his babies near lions. We here see the obvious downfalls in your methodology despite your success rate 'tried and true' has proven your views wrong. You're one person having success with lack luster methods . This is a peer-reviewed community of thousands of amateur/novice/semi-pro and dependent cultivators. The ideas that are part of the usual rhetoric are here by evolution as the best all around competitors in a information marketplace lined with TEKs that don't work all the time, like yours. If you're going to come in here and try to help a noob out by starting him off with bad habits, then yes you're going to get called out because some of us here want whats best for these new cultivators legitimately. We don't spend our stoned ass time here for money, we're not selling anything, we're just spreading the ideas that have worked best. Spend some time here in the cultivation forums and do some reading. I'll bet even if you don't do these techniques yourself you'll begin to see which things are obviously working for people who are doing the best work even if you have poor critical thinking skills.
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Gymspawn said: Do they not have those syringes with a black liquid that they say has the ability to be frozen?
I would never freeze a syringe. Regardless of what ever additive is in there.
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Gymspawn said: Listen to notahacker he is wise in his works and I know if he is taking the time to explain this to you then by no means would he be making this up for shits and giggles of for another reason.
This is true not false.
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (11/11/13 06:16 PM)
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