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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy
    #19114200 - 11/10/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Industrial progress, mechanical improvement, all of the great wonders of the modern era have meant little to the wealthy.

The rich in ancient Greece would have benefited hardly at all from modern plumbing — running servants replaced running water.

Television and radio — the patricians of Rome could enjoy the leading musicians and actors in their home, could have the leading artists as domestic retainers.

Ready-to-wear clothing, supermarkets — all these and many other modern developments would have added little to their life.

They would have welcomed the improvements in transportation and in medicine, but for the rest, the great achievements of western capitalism have rebounded primarily to the benefit of the ordinary person.

These achievements have made available to the masses conveniences and amenities that were previously the exclusive prerogative of the rich and powerful." --Milton Friedman

Discuss


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #19114211 - 11/10/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

do you follow the milton friedman page on Facebook? They literally just posted this quote haha


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19114229 - 11/10/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

LOL


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InvisibleSynth Ethics
substitution


Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 5,525
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19114256 - 11/10/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

not sure how capitalism have to do with the improvement mentioned...
I think ancient greece was already all about capitalism and profit.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Synth Ethics]
    #19114272 - 11/10/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you don't understand how capitalism creates technological innovation?  :youseethisshit:


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OfflineThulean

Registered: 10/04/13
Posts: 99
Loc: British Columbia Flag
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 2
    #19114287 - 11/10/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)



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InvisibleSynth Ethics
substitution


Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 5,525
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19114302 - 11/10/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think aquaduc system was invented to make profit. over here tap water is free and managed by the state, no corp involved.

inovation doesn't always equal private corp profit. Platon and Aristote developped their idea on the elements(physics&chemistry basics) via philosophy and didn't earned a single dollard for it.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Synth Ethics]
    #19114335 - 11/10/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Synth Ethics said:
I don't think aquaduc system was invented to make profit. over here tap water is free and managed by the state, no corp involved.

inovation doesn't always equal private corp profit. Platon and Aristote developped their idea on the elements(physics&chemistry basics) via philosophy and didn't earned a single dollard for it.



do you know how they were able to do that? Because the rich aristocrats hired them to have intellectual discussions etc. Also many famous philosophers back in the day were also painters and inventors who sold they're talents.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19114365 - 11/10/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
"Industrial progress, mechanical improvement, all of the great wonders of the modern era have meant little to the wealthy.

The rich in ancient Greece would have benefited hardly at all from modern plumbing — running servants replaced running water.

Television and radio — the patricians of Rome could enjoy the leading musicians and actors in their home, could have the leading artists as domestic retainers.

Ready-to-wear clothing, supermarkets — all these and many other modern developments would have added little to their life.

They would have welcomed the improvements in transportation and in medicine, but for the rest, the great achievements of western capitalism have rebounded primarily to the benefit of the ordinary person.

These achievements have made available to the masses conveniences and amenities that were previously the exclusive prerogative of the rich and powerful." --Milton Friedman

Discuss




Agreed


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
Aspiring Mycologist
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 16,000
Loc: Kazakhstan
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19114383 - 11/10/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not sure what this really has to do with modern economics but okay..

Capitalism is okay in my book though, it's one of my top 5 favorite economic systems...

I find a Resource Based Economy to be the best and most rewarding system for the masses though.


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InvisibleSynth Ethics
substitution


Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 5,525
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19114397 - 11/10/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Synth Ethics said:
I don't think aquaduc system was invented to make profit. over here tap water is free and managed by the state, no corp involved.

inovation doesn't always equal private corp profit. Platon and Aristote developped their idea on the elements(physics&chemistry basics) via philosophy and didn't earned a single dollard for it.



Because the rich aristocrats hired them to have intellectual discussions etc




sources?
btw I'm not arguing but rather genuinly interested on the topics


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19114412 - 11/10/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Capitalism is fine, we need something to replace democracy. That system has been broken for decades.

I propose geniocratic democracy. Where only the smartest are allowed to run for office. As long as you pass the knowledge test, you can run.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Synth Ethics]
    #19114428 - 11/10/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Synth Ethics said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Synth Ethics said:
I don't think aquaduc system was invented to make profit. over here tap water is free and managed by the state, no corp involved.

inovation doesn't always equal private corp profit. Platon and Aristote developped their idea on the elements(physics&chemistry basics) via philosophy and didn't earned a single dollard for it.



Because the rich aristocrats hired them to have intellectual discussions etc




sources?
btw I'm not arguing but rather genuinly interested on the topics



i'll look for an article that expands upon it but at the very end of this it touches upon plato educating statesmen
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/platoprofile/p/Plato.htm


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19114443 - 11/10/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It seems the ones who suck at the game bitch about the game...


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OfflineThulean

Registered: 10/04/13
Posts: 99
Loc: British Columbia Flag
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19114446 - 11/10/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Synth Ethics said:
I don't think aquaduc system was invented to make profit. over here tap water is free and managed by the state, no corp involved.

inovation doesn't always equal private corp profit. Platon and Aristote developped their idea on the elements(physics&chemistry basics) via philosophy and didn't earned a single dollard for it.




Where's over here? More than likely if you're in the west your public water is being fluoridated. Fluoride is dangerous chemical, it's an industrial by product, it would cost a helluva lot of money to dispose of it safely. So the government is actually being paid by these industrial companies to take it off their hand and release it into the water supply.

I would attribute the drastic rise of autism to this.
Quote:

mjmihalov said:
Not sure what this really has to do with modern economics but okay..

Capitalism is okay in my book though, it's one of my top 5 favorite economic systems...

I find a Resource Based Economy to be the best and most rewarding system for the masses though.




That guy is a bozo. Typical con artist feel to him. Plays a lot of word games "proving" to the viewer that various "truths" are actually not true, no you're in like the matrix or something. The weak minded viewer starts to feel very smart and important after learning these "truths". So he offers an alternative lifestyle "the venus project". I like to think of it more as controlled opposition. Look at the videos, they claim to be combating the globalist economy with these ideas. But his alternative is 100x more globalism and communism than we have now. The venus project offers a utopian socity in which humans don't work anymore. We live in cities that build themselves and shit. Everything is reliant on machines who are our slaves. It's so bizarre, that people get so infatuated with this delusional person and even give tons of money to his organization. Don't take it personally though. I always try to point out the scam in CULTS like these.


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InvisibleSynth Ethics
substitution


Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 5,525
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19114466 - 11/10/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

isn't that the consequence of his idea's succes rather than its motivation?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Thulean]
    #19114624 - 11/10/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thulean said:
Quote:

mjmihalov said:
Not sure what this really has to do with modern economics but okay..

Capitalism is okay in my book though, it's one of my top 5 favorite economic systems...

I find a Resource Based Economy to be the best and most rewarding system for the masses though.




That guy is a bozo. Typical con artist feel to him. Plays a lot of word games "proving" to the viewer that various "truths" are actually not true, no you're in like the matrix or something. The weak minded viewer starts to feel very smart and important after learning these "truths". So he offers an alternative lifestyle "the venus project". I like to think of it more as controlled opposition. Look at the videos, they claim to be combating the globalist economy with these ideas. But his alternative is 100x more globalism and communism than we have now. The venus project offers a utopian socity in which humans don't work anymore. We live in cities that build themselves and shit. Everything is reliant on machines who are our slaves. It's so bizarre, that people get so infatuated with this delusional person and even give tons of money to his organization. Don't take it personally though. I always try to point out the scam in CULTS like these.




Yeah those are basically my impressions as well. Communism/collectivism with a slick futurist TNG style presentation and cultish reverence of a "great leader." The name is so vague too, our economy is heavily centered around resources so it's arguably already "resource based."



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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Thulean]
    #19118317 - 11/11/13 12:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thulean said:






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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 33,945
Loc: Planet Piss
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19118331 - 11/11/13 12:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

somebodies never been filthy fucking rich


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19118561 - 11/11/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The reason they used to say capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy, was because back in societies such as ancient Greece, when you were born an aristocrat, you were expected to use your own money to benefit the masses. You were expected to use your own money to fund irrigation systems and public roads and things of that nature. You were considered a man of the gods, and the reason you were bestowed with that power was because you were directly sent from heaven. So if you were an aristocrat, that was considered your duty in society--to give back to the people.


Edited by Crystal G (11/11/13 01:43 AM)


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OfflineCannabischarlie
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119059 - 11/11/13 05:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
The reason they used to say capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy, was because back in societies such as ancient Greece, when you were born an aristocrat, you were expected to use your own money to benefit the masses. You were expected to use your own money to fund irrigation systems and public roads and things of that nature. You were considered a man of the gods, and the reason you were bestowed with that power was because you were directly sent from heaven. So if you were an aristocrat, that was considered your duty in society--to give back to the people.





Pretty much, that and what Milton Friedman said always kinda sounded good on paper until you analyze it. That is why someone had to be dragged out of him recieving a Nobel Prize yelling at him, a guy from a country he ruined with his philosophies. For which he was then given a Nobel Peace Prize


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This section of the signature line has been intentionally left blank.

  we could all use a little more sunshine.

:shrug: yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting.  not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin.  i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo.
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Cannabischarlie]
    #19119859 - 11/11/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cannabischarlie said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
The reason they used to say capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy, was because back in societies such as ancient Greece, when you were born an aristocrat, you were expected to use your own money to benefit the masses. You were expected to use your own money to fund irrigation systems and public roads and things of that nature. You were considered a man of the gods, and the reason you were bestowed with that power was because you were directly sent from heaven. So if you were an aristocrat, that was considered your duty in society--to give back to the people.





Pretty much, that and what Milton Friedman said always kinda sounded good on paper until you analyze it. That is why someone had to be dragged out of him recieving a Nobel Prize yelling at him, a guy from a country he ruined with his philosophies. For which he was then given a Nobel Peace Prize




Must have been a Chilean, I'm aware of how he was involved with the Chilean banking crisis. :lol:


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119890 - 11/11/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Cannabischarlie said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
The reason they used to say capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy, was because back in societies such as ancient Greece, when you were born an aristocrat, you were expected to use your own money to benefit the masses. You were expected to use your own money to fund irrigation systems and public roads and things of that nature. You were considered a man of the gods, and the reason you were bestowed with that power was because you were directly sent from heaven. So if you were an aristocrat, that was considered your duty in society--to give back to the people.





Pretty much, that and what Milton Friedman said always kinda sounded good on paper until you analyze it. That is why someone had to be dragged out of him recieving a Nobel Prize yelling at him, a guy from a country he ruined with his philosophies. For which he was then given a Nobel Peace Prize




Must have been a Chilean, I'm aware of how he was involved with the Chilean banking crisis. :lol:



your lack of knowledge is showing. Milton freedman is American (with Austrian heritage) who was not involved in the Chilean banking system at all. He was however an economic advisor to Reagan.


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19119907 - 11/11/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
your lack of knowledge is showing. Milton freedman is American (with Austrian heritage) who was not involved in the Chilean banking system at all. He was however an economic advisor to Reagan.




I am aware of who Milton Friedman is. Look up the Chicago boys and who was involved with Chile.


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19119918 - 11/11/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Capitalism really only benefits a small percentage of the population...They have people tricked in this country to think that the government needs more restrictions and corporations need less restrictions. Well who runs this country anyways? The corporations or the government? Last time I checked corporations pay for politicians to get elected. Not on some conspiracy shit, it comes down the advertising and the media. Obama might not be that bad, but corporations have him. The Bush family.....Talk about real corporate pig fuckers. This isn't my opinion, it is the truth. The media is a corporation, the media tells you the government needs more restrictions. Is this really true or is it that they don't want more restrictions for the evil shit they do. Buying public opinion, that should be a crime. The Koch Brothers are planning to buy up newspapers to fill with their agenda. Everyone say Obama is too liberal. I say bullshit, Obama is too conservative.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (11/11/13 10:55 AM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mindgnome]
    #19119928 - 11/11/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
Capitalism really only benefits a small percentage of the population...They have people tricked in this country to think that the government needs more restrictions and corporations need less restrictions. Well who runs this country anyways? The corporations or the government? Last time I checked corporations pay for politicians to get elected. Not on some conspiracy shit, it comes down the advertising and the media. Obama might not be that bad, but corporations have him. The Bush family.....Talk about real corporate pig fuckers. This isn't my opinion, it is the truth. The media is a corporation, the media tells you the government needs more restrictions. Is this really true or is it that they don't want more restrictions for the evil shit they do. Buying public opinion, that should be a crime. The Koch Brothers are planning to buy up newspapers to fill with their agenda. Everyone say Obama is too liberal. I say bullshit, Obama is too conservative.



so wouldn't it be better if there was less government power to be purchased?


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119934 - 11/11/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You will probably come across something called the "Chilean Miracle," which Milton Friedman no doubt will take credit for himself. What he fails to mention is that it ultimately failed in the 1982 crisis, which caused the government to intervene into the economy and bail out numerous banks and corporations, and the poverty level exploded from 15% to 44%. The gap between rich and poor exploded, and the country took on massive amounts of debt from the IMF.

Quote:

The facts behind the "Chilean miracle" remain a matter of intense debate. Pinochet held power for seventeen years, and during that time he changed political direction several times. The country's period of steady growth that is held up as proof of its miraculous success did not begin until the mid-eighties, a full decade after the Chicago Boys implemented shock therapy and well after Pinochet was forced to make a radical course correction.

That's because in 1982, despite its strict adherence to Chicago doctrine, Chile's economy crashed: its debt exploded, it faced hyperinflation once again and unemployment hit 30 percent—ten times higher than it was under Allende. The main cause was that the piranhas, the Enron-style financial houses that the Chicago Boys had freed from all regulation, had bought up the country's assets on borrowed money and run up an enormous debt of $14 billion.

The situation was so unstable that Pinochet was forced to do what Allende had done: he nationalized many of these companies. In the face of the debacle, almost all the Chicago Boys lost their influential government posts. (2)



http://harpercrusade.blogspot.com/2011/05/milton-friedman-and-chilean-experiment.html


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mindgnome]
    #19119939 - 11/11/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
Capitalism really only benefits a small percentage of the population...They have people tricked in this country to think that the government needs more restrictions and corporations need less restrictions. Well who runs this country anyways? The corporations or the government? Last time I checked corporations pay for politicians to get elected. Not on some conspiracy shit, it comes down the advertising and the media. Obama might not be that bad, but corporations have him. The Bush family.....Talk about real corporate pig fuckers. This isn't my opinion, it is the truth. The media is a corporation, the media tells you the government needs more restrictions. Is this really true or is it that they don't want more restrictions for the evil shit they do. Buying public opinion, that should be a crime. The Koch Brothers are planning to buy up newspapers to fill with their agenda. Everyone say Obama is too liberal. I say bullshit, Obama is too conservative.




Almost all politicians are bought nowadays, Obama is just as bought as Bush was.


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19119946 - 11/11/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
so wouldn't it be better if there was less government power to be purchased?



:whathesaid:


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19119953 - 11/11/13 11:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No because that is exactly what corporations want. If there is less government then big oil companies like BP wouldn't have any oversight in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico and I know for a fact that would be a fucking catastrophe. As it is the government isn't paying enough attention to corporations. Deepwater Horizon and the Thunderhorse platform sinking into the ocean are signs that we need to put major restrictions on oil companies if they want to do business with the United States. Shit blows up all the time because of them and it barely makes the news. That is just one piece to the puzzle I could also get into corporations like Walmart and others.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119956 - 11/11/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

look i can find sources to support my point of view also
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703411304575093572032665414
Quote:

As for Chile, Pinochet appointed a succession of Chicago Boys to senior economic posts. By 1990, the year he ceded power, per capita GDP had risen by 40% (in 2005 dollars) even as Peru and Argentina stagnated. Pinochet's democratic successors—all of them nominally left-of-center—only deepened the liberalization drive. Result: Chileans have become South America's richest people. They have the continent's lowest level of corruption, the lowest infant-mortality rate, and the lowest number of people living below the poverty line.




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Invisiblelighthouse09
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19119959 - 11/11/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

yea capitalism and government together are a bad combo. I fail to see any good things that came out of this in recent years??


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19119962 - 11/11/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mjmihalov said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
so wouldn't it be better if there was less government power to be purchased?



:whathesaid:




What kind of regulatory oversight would you like to see minimized or get rid of altogether? The FDA? The IRS? The FBI? ICE? The NRA? Homeland Security? I'm just assuming you are talking mainly about federal power.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119964 - 11/11/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Capitalism is the best economic system, but what we practice today is NOT capitalism.

Mixing developed economies with third world nations is not capitalism.

Having a government that bails out financial institutions that FAIL is not capitalism.

Having a Federal Reserve that artificially props up assets prices (stocks, bonds, and real estate) which mainly benefits the top 1/100 of 1% is not capitalism.

The list goes on and on, I'm a capitalist, we don't practice capitalism anymore.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19119968 - 11/11/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:so wouldn't it be better if there was less government power to be purchased?





But the government fundings make alot of the american sectors competitive. See agriculture, biomedical research, military.

Also, the government power isnt purchased, the people are. The US agenda is tending to a lower social spending toward an industrial spending. Which has worked for a while until you let the bankers free.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: qman]
    #19119971 - 11/11/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Capitalism has done more for the freedom of mankind than any other modern convenience or ideal.  Thank God for the profit motive.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: qman]
    #19119973 - 11/11/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

These so called capitalists want less oversight for corporations. I am sorry to say but the Republican party and Tea party supporters have no idea what they are truly supporting, they only listen to what fox news and their cronies say and take it as the truth.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (11/11/13 11:08 AM)


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19119977 - 11/11/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
look i can find sources to support my point of view also
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703411304575093572032665414
Quote:

As for Chile, Pinochet appointed a succession of Chicago Boys to senior economic posts. By 1990, the year he ceded power, per capita GDP had risen by 40% (in 2005 dollars) even as Peru and Argentina stagnated. Pinochet's democratic successors—all of them nominally left-of-center—only deepened the liberalization drive. Result: Chileans have become South America's richest people. They have the continent's lowest level of corruption, the lowest infant-mortality rate, and the lowest number of people living below the poverty line.







Yes, IMO this is one of the huge problems with Chicago school of thinking, is that it's very much a school of convenience. Is to give credit and take responsibility when it's convenient, that is when surpluses have been made, and to ignore the fact of the matter when it's convenient, that is when it fails.

Perhaps the most obvious success for the 1990 turning point is the fact that Pinochet, the dictator, had fallen out of power that same year.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Amphibolos]
    #19119978 - 11/11/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Amphibolos said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:so wouldn't it be better if there was less government power to be purchased?





But the government fundings make alot of the american sectors competitive. See agriculture, biomedical research, military.

Also, the government power isnt purchased, the people are. The US agenda is tending to a lower social spending toward an industrial spending. Which has worked for a while until you let the bankers free.



subsidies are not competition. Subsidies create monopolies by creating barriers to entry. If you can't make money being a farmer then don't fucking be a farmer.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Amphibolos]
    #19119979 - 11/11/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

qman is right,

The US government practice an intense interventionism in regard to their interior economy. Which is strange if you truly believe in a "free market"


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: lighthouse09]
    #19119980 - 11/11/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lighthouse09 said:
yea capitalism and government together are a bad combo. I fail to see any good things that came out of this in recent years??


QFT

I used to think capitalism was good back when I was a kid, then I got a little older and started doing research for myself and I realized there are way better options, such as a Resource Based Economy


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mindgnome]
    #19119987 - 11/11/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
These so called capitalists want less oversight for corporations. I am sorry to say but the Republican party and Tea party supporters have no idea what they are truly supporting, they only listen to what fox news and their cronies say and take it as the truth.




Who do you think supports/owns the Democratic party? The corporations. :cookiemonster:


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19119989 - 11/11/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
subsidies are not competition. Subsidies create monopolies by creating barriers to entry. If you can't make money being a farmer then don't fucking be a farmer.




Monsanto is the one that is mainly responsible for that.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119994 - 11/11/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

mjmihalov said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
so wouldn't it be better if there was less government power to be purchased?



:whathesaid:




What kind of regulatory oversight would you like to see minimized or get rid of altogether? The FDA? The IRS? The FBI? ICE? The NRA? Homeland Security? I'm just assuming you are talking mainly about federal power.



I would get rid of all those. And bring back a very few in some capacity, albeit a much small form. And yes mainly federal powers, power should be concentrated at the state level.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19119996 - 11/11/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
subsidies are not competition. Subsidies create monopolies by creating barriers to entry. If you can't make money being a farmer then don't fucking be a farmer.




Monsanto is the one that is mainly responsible for that.



Only if you focus on a few specific GMO crops. And thats an IP issue. Which i have mixed feelings on.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Amphibolos]
    #19120000 - 11/11/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What we are is not capitalism, it is corporatism. This is because the corporations have so many of their people in politics. A vast majority of Americans are completely unaware of this.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mindgnome]
    #19120001 - 11/11/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
These so called capitalists want less oversight for corporations. I am sorry to say but the Republican party and Tea party supporters have no idea what they are truly supporting, they only listen to what fox news and their cronies say and take it as the truth.




What are you an all-knowing being or something?

How can you know everything a whole party does and what they listen too and how they take what they hear..


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120007 - 11/11/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
I would get rid of all those. And bring back a very few in some capacity, albeit a much small form. And yes mainly federal powers, power should be concentrated at the state level.




So you don't think that the quality and sanitary conditions of pharmaceuticals should be regulated? You don't think that the IRS should be monitoring for price-fixing or for other illegal market activities?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: qman]
    #19120014 - 11/11/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This may be true though even the Liberals nowadays have a conservative point of view. So in this two party system the only two options I have are conservative or more conservative? I don't adhere to that message. I believe if we keep letting the corporations control things, our country will be struggling for a long time. Plus I'm not going to let some rich assholes brain wash me for their own benefit. If I saw these people in person I would go up to them and say "Go fuck yourself"


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120024 - 11/11/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

FDA is necessary regarding the conditions of your food aswell. Would you eat a product that is only deemed safe by the company that produce it?


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120030 - 11/11/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
I would get rid of all those. And bring back a very few in some capacity, albeit a much small form. And yes mainly federal powers, power should be concentrated at the state level.




So you don't think that the quality and sanitary conditions of pharmaceuticals should be regulated? You don't think that the IRS should be monitoring for price-fixing or for other illegal market activities?



In regards to the FDA, is a limited capacity perhaps, but they have killed more people by keeping drugs off the market than saved lives. And for the IRS, in a free market sustained price fixing cartels simply wouldn't be possible. The economic incentive for alternative products and a loss of revenue is too strong.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120032 - 11/11/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
subsidies are not competition. Subsidies create monopolies by creating barriers to entry. If you can't make money being a farmer then don't fucking be a farmer.




Monsanto is the one that is mainly responsible for that.



Only if you focus on a few specific GMO crops. And thats an IP issue. Which i have mixed feelings on.




That's not true, Monsanto has also copyrighted seeds from nature, so that any time somebody uses that same crop for farming, they owe royalties to Monsanto. I understand that's "capitalism," but how does anybody have the right to trademark seeds, something that comes from nature, something that they didn't invent or chemically engineer themselves?

They also exclusively own the corn feed which is sold as feed to cows and other animals, making it so expensive that it's virtually impossible for smaller-business dairy farmers or meat farmers to make a profit on.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mindgnome]
    #19120036 - 11/11/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
This may be true though even the Liberals nowadays have a conservative point of view. So in this two party system the only two options I have are conservative or more conservative? I don't adhere to that message. I believe if we keep letting the corporations control things, our country will be struggling for a long time. Plus I'm not going to let some rich assholes brain wash me for their own benefit. If I saw these people in person I would go up to them and say "Go fuck yourself"



A Resource Based Economy is a great way to do away with all that.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120037 - 11/11/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
In regards to the FDA, is a limited capacity perhaps, but they have killed more people by keeping drugs off the market than saved lives. And for the IRS, in a free market sustained price fixing cartels simply wouldn't be possible. The economic incentive for alternative products and a loss of revenue is too strong.




I doubt that. In a free market economic society, it would mean that monopolies are legal. Which would result in large corporations simply buying out any of their competition.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19120054 - 11/11/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The fact of the matter is there shouldn't be labels for anyone. Politics should be about electing people who obviously want to change things for the betterment of Americans and truly care about people. It is really hard for me to explain but there is no compassion in politics. It is a rat race and neither side is right, liberal or conservative. All they do is argue and nothing gets done. They aren't even that smart, they just want things to go their way so they get paid. The corporations fucking them in the ass on national television.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (11/11/13 11:24 AM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120063 - 11/11/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
subsidies are not competition. Subsidies create monopolies by creating barriers to entry. If you can't make money being a farmer then don't fucking be a farmer.




Monsanto is the one that is mainly responsible for that.



Only if you focus on a few specific GMO crops. And thats an IP issue. Which i have mixed feelings on.




That's not true, Monsanto has also copyrighted seeds from nature, so that any time somebody uses that same crop for farming, they owe royalties to Monsanto. I understand that's "capitalism," but how does anybody have the right to trademark seeds, something that comes from nature, something that they didn't invent or chemically engineer themselves?

They also exclusively own the corn feed which is sold as feed to cows and other animals, making it so expensive that it's virtually impossible for smaller-business dairy farmers or meat farmers to make a profit on.



can you provide a source that shows monsanto owns seeds that they did not modify at all? And your wrong. Monsanto does not own the idea of corn being fed to farm animals

in fact i now recall the supreme court ruling earlier this year that affirmed naturally occurring genes cannot be patented.


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Edited by psyconaught (11/11/13 11:31 AM)


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120065 - 11/11/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
In regards to the FDA, is a limited capacity perhaps, but they have killed more people by keeping drugs off the market than saved lives. And for the IRS, in a free market sustained price fixing cartels simply wouldn't be possible. The economic incentive for alternative products and a loss of revenue is too strong.




I doubt that. In a free market economic society, it would mean that monopolies are legal. Which would result in large corporations simply buying out any of their competition.



Monopolies cannot exist in a free market. And if i as a business owner want to purchase another business that completes against me why do you have the right to tell me i cannot do that?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19120073 - 11/11/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mjmihalov said:
QFT

I used to think capitalism was good back when I was a kid, then I got a little older and started doing research for myself and I realized there are way better options, such as a Resource Based Economy



indeed i have been looking for system like thisits alot like the one i read recently inm a kim stanley robertson book "2312" (great writer!!) the main difference was he used cpu's to decide since they wouldnt be biased in their decisions because they can't..  but how could we even start to get a resource based economy party hmmm??


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: lighthouse09]
    #19120075 - 11/11/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lighthouse09 said:
Quote:

mjmihalov said:
QFT

I used to think capitalism was good back when I was a kid, then I got a little older and started doing research for myself and I realized there are way better options, such as a Resource Based Economy



indeed i have been looking for system like thisits alot like the one i read recently inm a kim stanley robertson book "2312" (great writer!!) the main difference was he used cpu's to decide since they wouldnt be biased in their decisions because they can't..  but how could we even start to get a resource based economy party hmmm??



communism is a start.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120093 - 11/11/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
can you provide a source that shows monsanto owns seeds that they did not modify at all? And your wrong. Monsanto does not own the idea of corn being fed to farm animals




My ex grew up on a dairy farm and is the one who told me about Monsanto owning the corn feed.

The Monsanto corporation owning seeds was on a PBS documentary that I saw a couple of years ago. Look it up on PBS, they have all of their documentaries online for free. They have a couple documentaries on Monsanto but I think I saw it around 2009 or 2010.

I can't remember if it was Food Inc. or Seeds of Death or The World According to Monsanto. I looked at a preview of all of them, and they don't look like any of these videos

This video does cover Monsanto's patent on seeds though. It also talks about how these grains are used for animal feed: http://video.pbs.org/video/2336662669/


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120099 - 11/11/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Monopolies cannot exist in a free market. And if i as a business owner want to purchase another business that completes against me why do you have the right to tell me i cannot do that?




There is no law against telling you to do that. What is illegal, is buying out EVERY OTHER BUSINESS in the industry. But against buying a business, or buying numerous businesses, there is no law against that.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120117 - 11/11/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Monopolies cannot exist in a free market. And if i as a business owner want to purchase another business that completes against me why do you have the right to tell me i cannot do that?




There is no law against telling you to do that. What is illegal, is buying out EVERY OTHER BUSINESS in the industry. But against buying a business, or buying numerous businesses, there is no law against that.



I know there is no law. Your asserting it is wrong to purchase competition though.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120127 - 11/11/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
can you provide a source that shows monsanto owns seeds that they did not modify at all? And your wrong. Monsanto does not own the idea of corn being fed to farm animals




My ex grew up on a dairy farm and is the one who told me about Monsanto owning the corn feed.

The Monsanto corporation owning seeds was on a PBS documentary that I saw a couple of years ago. Look it up on PBS, they have all of their documentaries online for free. They have a couple documentaries on Monsanto but I think I saw it around 2009 or 2010.

I can't remember if it was Food Inc. or Seeds of Death or The World According to Monsanto. I looked at a preview of all of them, and they don't look like any of these videos

This video does cover Monsanto's patent on seeds though. It also talks about how these grains are used for animal feed: http://video.pbs.org/video/2336662669/



im not gonna spend a day watching documentaries to possibly prove your point that is most likely wrong. The supreme court ruled that naturally occurring genes cannot be patented. I've lived and worked on farms as well. There are a myriad of locally produced corn feeds in my area.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120132 - 11/11/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Monopolies cannot exist in a free market. And if i as a business owner want to purchase another business that completes against me why do you have the right to tell me i cannot do that?




There is no law against telling you to do that. What is illegal, is buying out EVERY OTHER BUSINESS in the industry. But against buying a business, or buying numerous businesses, there is no law against that.



I know there is no law. Your asserting it is wrong to purchase competition though.




I am not saying it is wrong, I am saying it is unlikely that cheap competition would likely exist, since large businesses would simply buy out all their other competitors. Or they would conspire together to all artificially inflate prices for higher profits, which also, is illegal and monitored by the URS.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120141 - 11/11/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
im not gonna spend a day watching documentaries to possibly prove your point that is most likely wrong. The supreme court ruled that naturally occurring genes cannot be patented. I've lived and worked on farms as well. There are a myriad of locally produced corn feeds in my area.




So they ruled against the farmer: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/13/183603368/supreme-court-rules-for-monsanto-in-case-against-farmer

Because the whole argument was that even formerly modified genes grow and reproduce naturally for generations and generations.

Then there was that farmer in Canada whose neighbor was using Monsanto seeds, and the wind blew onto his farm combining his seeds with Monsanto's, extending in a lengthy court battle.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: lighthouse09]
    #19120150 - 11/11/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lighthouse09 said:
Quote:

mjmihalov said:
QFT

I used to think capitalism was good back when I was a kid, then I got a little older and started doing research for myself and I realized there are way better options, such as a Resource Based Economy



indeed i have been looking for system like thisits alot like the one i read recently inm a kim stanley robertson book "2312" (great writer!!) the main difference was he used cpu's to decide since they wouldnt be biased in their decisions because they can't..  but how could we even start to get a resource based economy party hmmm??




Well you wouldn't need a party, its not really political, it just economics, although I think k it should be coupled with a direct democracy where a very se sure system is set up and people can vote using the internet.

But starting a resource based economy, even on a small-scale, would be a much needed huge leap into the future.

How we get the ball rolling is by spreading the info about it to as many people as possible...

It's just hard because people can't seem to grasp the concept of not needing money to live because of how much value our culture puts on money.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120158 - 11/11/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Monopolies cannot exist in a free market. And if i as a business owner want to purchase another business that completes against me why do you have the right to tell me i cannot do that?




There is no law against telling you to do that. What is illegal, is buying out EVERY OTHER BUSINESS in the industry. But against buying a business, or buying numerous businesses, there is no law against that.



I know there is no law. Your asserting it is wrong to purchase competition though.




I am not saying it is wrong, I am saying it is unlikely that cheap competition would likely exist, since large businesses would simply buy out all their other competitors. Or they would conspire together to all artificially inflate prices for higher profits, which also, is illegal and monitored by the URS.



what would happen if a product randomly became astronomically priced? You wouldn't buy it. So the companies would either have to lower the prices or someone would come along and create a competing product.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120166 - 11/11/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
im not gonna spend a day watching documentaries to possibly prove your point that is most likely wrong. The supreme court ruled that naturally occurring genes cannot be patented. I've lived and worked on farms as well. There are a myriad of locally produced corn feeds in my area.




So they ruled against the farmer: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/13/183603368/supreme-court-rules-for-monsanto-in-case-against-farmer

Because the whole argument was that even formerly modified genes grow and reproduce naturally for generations and generations.

Then there was that farmer in Canada whose neighbor was using Monsanto seeds, and the wind blew onto his farm combining his seeds with Monsanto's, extending in a lengthy court battle.



those are besides the point. For what its worth i agree with you on those aspects. But your side stepping the fact that you claimed monsanto patents naturally occurring seeds, which they do not. I proved you wrong and now your changing the subject.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120168 - 11/11/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
what would happen if a product randomly became astronomically priced? You wouldn't buy it. So the companies would either have to lower the prices or someone would come along and create a competing product.




That's not true and depends completely on people's dependence on the product. Everybody needs gasoline. Everybody needs electricity. Everybody needs food and water. Everybody needs toilet paper.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120174 - 11/11/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
those are besides the point. For what its worth i agree with you on those aspects. But your side stepping the fact that you claimed monsanto patents naturally occurring seeds, which they do not. I proved you wrong and now your changing the subject.




Well, I saw the documentary a few years ago. So I could have seen that documentary back when Monsanto was attempting to patent conventionally-grown seeds, and the Supreme Court overruled it by now. I haven't kept up with the news regarding that.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19120177 - 11/11/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I hate driving through the country and seeing Monsanto signs all over the place by all the fields of plants, they're definitely trying to get a monopoly going, and they're doing pretty well at it.

I don't really have a huge problem with GMO's, sometimes they can be a good thing, but sometimes in animal testing they show horrible results, I think all GMO foods should be labeled as such, so people can easily make the decision for themselves whether or not they want to eat GMO foods.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19120184 - 11/11/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:

Then there was that farmer in Canada whose neighbor was using Monsanto seeds, and the wind blew onto his farm combining his seeds with Monsanto's, extending in a lengthy court battle.



Of course this is more bullshit.  The court found that the farmer intentionally planted Monsanto seeds.

http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/site/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/38991/index.do


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mindgnome]
    #19120263 - 11/11/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
This may be true though even the Liberals nowadays have a conservative point of view. So in this two party system the only two options I have are conservative or more conservative? I don't adhere to that message. I believe if we keep letting the corporations control things, our country will be struggling for a long time. Plus I'm not going to let some rich assholes brain wash me for their own benefit. If I saw these people in person I would go up to them and say "Go fuck yourself"




"I believe if we keep letting the corporations control things, our country will be struggling for a long time."

There is really nothing that can be done, it's a corrupt system.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120359 - 11/11/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
you don't understand how capitalism creates technological innovation?  :youseethisshit:




You don't understand how government creates technological advances either? :youseethisshit:


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #19120392 - 11/11/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The government is far less efficient at creating new technologies.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19120404 - 11/11/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
you don't understand how capitalism creates technological innovation?  :youseethisshit:




You don't understand how government creates technological advances either? :youseethisshit:



can you give one me one example of how government does technological innovation better than the private sector?


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120421 - 11/11/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Did I say it did it better?

Capitalism will only invest in research that it thinks will make it a profit.  Government will invest in fundamental research to further our knowledge on a subject, even if it won't pay off immediately.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19120469 - 11/11/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Did I say it did it better?

Capitalism will only invest in research that it thinks will make it a profit.  Government will invest in fundamental research to further our knowledge on a subject, even if it won't pay off immediately.



No that is demonstrably false many government projects run over budget all the time and are notoriously inefficient.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19120478 - 11/11/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

How is what you just said refuting anything I said whatsoever?

Do you think that private projects don't ever run over budget, though?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19120498 - 11/11/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Obviously, government research is necessary if we want to do crazy shit like put a man on the moon.  There's no commercial interest in doing that, so it wouldn't happen without government funding.

The question, however, is whether we should do shit like put a man on the moon....Certainly, some technologies came out of that endeavor, but were those technologies enough to justify the cost?  Further, should a government be choosing projects based on upholding a reputation among nations?


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19120500 - 11/11/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
How is what you just said refuting anything I said whatsoever?

Do you think that private projects don't ever run over budget, though?



I am sure it happens but with the government its a certainty. As for research investment generally the government contracts private companies because surprise surprise private companies are more efficient and get the job done.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19120517 - 11/11/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
what would happen if a product randomly became astronomically priced? You wouldn't buy it. So the companies would either have to lower the prices or someone would come along and create a competing product.




That's not true and depends completely on people's dependence on the product. Everybody needs gasoline. Everybody needs electricity. Everybody needs food and water. Everybody needs toilet paper.




No, they don't.  Necessity is the mother of invention.  Toilet paper was invented to replace corn cobs.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19120526 - 11/11/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The premise is somewhat flawed - that technological progress comes only from capitalist enterprise.

I think there are many examples where "socialist" type endeavors are responsible for advances where capitalism fails. In particular, basic science and medical research is almost entirely the domain of government spending, either directly or thought the grant system.

The increasingly disturbing incidence of antibiotic resistance is in part due to the fact phatmaceutical companies are are not interested in developing new antibiotics and budget cuts mean the public sector doesn't have the resources to do it either.


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Edited by koods (11/11/13 01:11 PM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19120528 - 11/11/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Obviously, government research is necessary if we want to do crazy shit like put a man on the moon.  There's no commercial interest in doing that, so it wouldn't happen without government funding.

The question, however, is whether we should do shit like put a man on the moon....Certainly, some technologies came out of that endeavor, but were those technologies enough to justify the cost?  Further, should a government be choosing projects based on upholding a reputation among nations?



in reagards to the space program i would argue that this is one of the few government programs that have created more value and benefit than was put into it. The amount of spin off technology that comes out of NASA is incredible compared to its meager budget.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19120530 - 11/11/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I also just ran across this article that i feel is applicable to the discussion on whether capitalism benefits the masses
http://reason.com/archives/2013/11/11/cheer-up-things-are-getting-better


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19120541 - 11/11/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Obviously, government research is necessary if we want to do crazy shit like put a man on the moon.  There's no commercial interest in doing that, so it wouldn't happen without government funding.

The question, however, is whether we should do shit like put a man on the moon....Certainly, some technologies came out of that endeavor, but were those technologies enough to justify the cost?  Further, should a government be choosing projects based on upholding a reputation among nations?




Private companies would have eventually brought us to the moon.  However, we may still wouldn't be there today if it weren't for government. 

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
How is what you just said refuting anything I said whatsoever?

Do you think that private projects don't ever run over budget, though?



I am sure it happens but with the government its a certainty. As for research investment generally the government contracts private companies because surprise surprise private companies are more efficient and get the job done.




Tell that to Lockheed and their F-35 project.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: koods] * 1
    #19120558 - 11/11/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The premise is somewhat flawed - that technological progress comes only from capitalist enterprise.

I think there are many examples where "socialist" type endeavors are responsible for advances where capitalism fails. In particular, basic science and medical research is almost entirely the domain of government spending, either directly or thought the grant system.

The increasingly disturbing incidence of antibiotic resistance is in part due to the fact phatmaceutical companies are are not interested in developing new antibiotics and budget cuts mean the public sector doesn't have the resources to do it either.




What a crock of shit.  The grant system is powered by for-profit endeavors and those looking to capitalize on the advances of science.  Socialism my ass.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19120577 - 11/11/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:

Tell that to Lockheed and their F-35 project.




Damn, I just drove by their headquarters on the way back from the grocery store. I could have dropped by and given them the message. Actually, maybe not. They often have some scary looking dudes at the front gate:



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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mpd] * 1
    #19120586 - 11/11/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mpd said:
Quote:

koods said:
The premise is somewhat flawed - that technological progress comes only from capitalist enterprise.

I think there are many examples where "socialist" type endeavors are responsible for advances where capitalism fails. In particular, basic science and medical research is almost entirely the domain of government spending, either directly or thought the grant system.

The increasingly disturbing incidence of antibiotic resistance is in part due to the fact phatmaceutical companies are are not interested in developing new antibiotics and budget cuts mean the public sector doesn't have the resources to do it either.




What a crock of shit.  The grant system is powered by for-profit endeavors and those looking to capitalize on the advances of science.  Socialism my ass.




So, now spending taxpayer money isn't socialism? You guys need to make up your minds.


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Edited by koods (11/11/13 01:19 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: koods]
    #19120708 - 11/11/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

LOL.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: koods]
    #19121761 - 11/11/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

mpd said:
Quote:

koods said:
The premise is somewhat flawed - that technological progress comes only from capitalist enterprise.

I think there are many examples where "socialist" type endeavors are responsible for advances where capitalism fails. In particular, basic science and medical research is almost entirely the domain of government spending, either directly or thought the grant system.

The increasingly disturbing incidence of antibiotic resistance is in part due to the fact phatmaceutical companies are are not interested in developing new antibiotics and budget cuts mean the public sector doesn't have the resources to do it either.




What a crock of shit.  The grant system is powered by for-profit endeavors and those looking to capitalize on the advances of science.  Socialism my ass.




So, now spending taxpayer money isn't socialism? You guys need to make up your minds.





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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19121870 - 11/11/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:

Then there was that farmer in Canada whose neighbor was using Monsanto seeds, and the wind blew onto his farm combining his seeds with Monsanto's, extending in a lengthy court battle.



Of course this is more bullshit.  The court found that the farmer intentionally planted Monsanto seeds.

http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/site/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/38991/index.do




Congratulations. You finally beat me at something. :lol:

Quote:

Enlil said:
Obviously, government research is necessary if we want to do crazy shit like put a man on the moon.  There's no commercial interest in doing that, so it wouldn't happen without government funding.

The question, however, is whether we should do shit like put a man on the moon....Certainly, some technologies came out of that endeavor, but were those technologies enough to justify the cost?  Further, should a government be choosing projects based on upholding a reputation among nations?




That's what I thought about the Mars Rover. I get it, it's really cool and everything. But they already sent numerous ones of them to Mars already checking the chemistry to see if it's inhabitable, was it really worth investing the billions of dollars it took just to send another one?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: mpd]
    #19121896 - 11/11/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mpd said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
what would happen if a product randomly became astronomically priced? You wouldn't buy it. So the companies would either have to lower the prices or someone would come along and create a competing product.




That's not true and depends completely on people's dependence on the product. Everybody needs gasoline. Everybody needs electricity. Everybody needs food and water. Everybody needs toilet paper.




No, they don't.  Necessity is the mother of invention.  Toilet paper was invented to replace corn cobs.




People have been attempting to create cars that run on water and solar for decades now, and there is no substitute for food and water. And regardless, with inventions nowadays there are patents and copyrights. Simply because something is invented to replace an item is not any guarantee that it will be cheaper or more easily available to the public. If anything, patent law would indicate the opposite would happen. It also makes it likely that even IF an item is invented, it would take years and years before it would officially hit the market. So if illegal market schemes were to occur, your common everyday folk would be stuck in that situation for 20-30 years, or till whenever the patent wears off.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19121908 - 11/11/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:

That's what I thought about the Mars Rover. I get it, it's really cool and everything. But they already sent numerous ones of them to Mars already checking the chemistry to see if it's inhabitable, was it really worth investing the billions of dollars it took just to send another one?




:wtf:

How is that even a fucking question?  I don't think you have the slightest clue on why we're sending rovers to Mars, as you've made clear.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19121938 - 11/11/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
:wtf:

How is that even a fucking question?  I don't think you have the slightest clue on why we're sending rovers to Mars, as you've made clear.




I realize there's a POINT to it, but I can think of a thousand other crises going on in this country where that money could be used to going. It's more of a matter of priority than anything. Maybe one of the huge reasons we are facing budgetary problems now is because we drained so much of that money in sending the Mars Rover.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19121939 - 11/11/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:

That's what I thought about the Mars Rover. I get it, it's really cool and everything. But they already sent numerous ones of them to Mars already checking the chemistry to see if it's inhabitable, was it really worth investing the billions of dollars it took just to send another one?




:wtf:

How is that even a fucking question?  I don't think you have the slightest clue on why we're sending rovers to Mars, as you've made clear.



for once we agree. The NASA budget is 4/10 of one percent of the Federal Budget. We have much larger fiscal fish to fry.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19121946 - 11/11/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
:wtf:

How is that even a fucking question?  I don't think you have the slightest clue on why we're sending rovers to Mars, as you've made clear.




I realize there's a POINT to it, but I can think of a thousand other crises going on in this country where that money could be used to going. It's more of a matter of priority than anything. Maybe one of the huge reasons we are facing budgetary problems now is because we drained so much of that money in sending the Mars Rover.



the nasa budget is 4/10 of one percent of the federal budget. And thats ALL of nasa. Not just the rover. So before you make asinine statements about the rover causing our budget issues some thinking might be in order.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19121952 - 11/11/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
for once we agree. The NASA budget is 4/10 of one percent of the Federal Budget. We have much larger fiscal fish to fry.




Such as? I'm curious what these other fiscal fish are.


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Offlinedontknow
It's all in the reflex


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19121957 - 11/11/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
:wtf:

How is that even a fucking question?  I don't think you have the slightest clue on why we're sending rovers to Mars, as you've made clear.




we're looking for moon rocks right?


--------------------
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The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly. -Proverbs 15:14

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19121960 - 11/11/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
for once we agree. The NASA budget is 4/10 of one percent of the Federal Budget. We have much larger fiscal fish to fry.




Such as? I'm curious what these other fiscal fish are.



The war on drugs, the defense budget, the welfare state, corporate subsidies, etc.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122021 - 11/11/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
for once we agree. The NASA budget is 4/10 of one percent of the Federal Budget. We have much larger fiscal fish to fry.




Such as? I'm curious what these other fiscal fish are.



The war on drugs, the defense budget, the welfare state, corporate subsidies, etc.




That's interesting that you mention the war on drugs, considering its budget is only in the millions, which is a tiny fraction of NASA's budget. And I'm not including factors in the budget such as intervention and treatment and drug-related Medicare and Medicaid services, since these services would still exist even if the Drug War didn't. Although I guess if you include prison incarceration and law enforcement activity it would be considerably more.

As for the defense budget blame Halliburton and Blackwater. They are the contractors that are overbilling the US government for substandard work, and are the ones that profited from senseless wars such as Iraq. Cheney of course, had millions of dollars of stock in Halliburton, which I believe was a huge motive for going to war. So, do you think it would be necessary to have regulation oversight or restrictions to prevent companies such as Halliburton and Blackwater for overbilling, to decrease the defense budget?


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19122057 - 11/11/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

what the fuck are you talking about? The war on drugs cost 25.6 billion dollars this year. And are you really gonna blame the contractors for getting hired? Im not even talking about the wars specifically. How about the fact that we have military bases on almost every country on earth. Or that we spend more on military than the next 14 countries combined.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122112 - 11/11/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
what the fuck are you talking about? The war on drugs cost 25.6 billion dollars this year.




Yes, but do you know how that 25.6 billion is BROKEN DOWN?

Included in that 25 billion are treatment and prevention costs, which are arguably the most expensive thing. Which is why if you SUBTRACT THEM (since these programs would still exist even without the war on drugs), the budget would still cost lower than NASA's budget.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/the-national-drug-control-budget-fy-2013-funding-highlights

Quote:

And are you really gonna blame the contractors for getting hired? Im not even talking about the wars specifically. How about the fact that we have military bases on almost every country on earth. Or that we spend more on military than the next 14 countries combined.




Uh, are you serious? First you didn't know about Milton Friedman's involvement with Chile. Now you don't know about how these contractors ripped off the US military. They overcharged for everything and deliberately destroyed perfectly good, working, expensive items (items that cost between $60,000 to half a million dollars) because they knew they were going to make more money by simply billing the government as "damaged goods." Privatization of war is the entire reason we even have a military industrial complex.

I'm going to be gone for a few hours. You should watch this documentary:


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19122176 - 11/11/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Milton Friedman was part of the Chicago group that was part of an exchange program with another chilean university. Blaming him for bad things that happened in chile is hardly intellectually honest.

And do i blame the contractors? Hell no, the reason they exist is to make money. The government shouldn't have been involved in those wars in the first place. They shouldn't have given those contracts and they shouldn't be spending that money in the first place. I blame the people who set the chain of events in motion. not who they decided to hire after the fact. The contractors probably kept the costs down because they were still more efficient than the military.

i don't care how you break it down. If you manipulate the numbers enough you could get the cost down to one million dollars. The fact is that the war on drugs cost 25.6 billion dollars. More than NASA's budget of 17.7 billion. The main difference however? Nasa actually provides a benefit to society. As opposed to the completely useless war on drugs


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122350 - 11/11/13 06:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think space travel is one of the most important things we can be doing/researching.

Eventually the human race will have to leave the earth if they want to live, chances are a catastrophe will happen on earth and wipe out nearly all life, it's happened before and it will happen again.

I don't know much about our space program and how it is ran though.


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Offlinedontknow
It's all in the reflex


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19122374 - 11/11/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

it's happened before and it will happen again




that's a quote from the history channel :lol:


--------------------
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The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly. -Proverbs 15:14

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“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of Life’s coming attractions.”
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122456 - 11/11/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpc.senate.gov%2Fhearings%2Fhearing22%2Fjointreport.pdf&ei=HIiBUpyxI6mliQKgvoCgDA&usg=AFQjCNGb6Nd3Uw_uvPgUyEO_o3hQjCdpwQ
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Milton Friedman was part of the Chicago grohttp://rense.com/general58/costly.htmp that was part of an exchange program with another chilean university. Blaming him for bad things that happened in chile is hardly intellectually honest.

And do i blame the contractors? Hell no, the reason they exist is to make money. The government shouldn't have been involved in those wars in the first place. They shouldn't have given those contracts and they shouldn't be spending that money in the first place. I blame the people who set the chain of events in motion. not who they decided to hire after the fact. The contractors probably kept the costs down because they were still more efficient than the military.

i don't care how you break it down. If you manipulate the numbers enough you could get the cost down to one million dollars. The fact is that the war on drugs cost 25.6 billion dollars. More than NASA's budget of 17.7 billion. The main difference however? Nasa actually provides a benefit to society. As opposed to the completely useless war on drugs




Um no, quite the opposite, privatization is far more expensive than military work:
http://rense.com/general58/costly.htm

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dpc.senate.gov%2Fhearings%2Fhearing22%2Fjointreport.pdf&ei=HIiBUpyxI6mliQKgvoCgDA&usg=AFQjCNGb6Nd3Uw_uvPgUyEO_o3hQjCdpwQ

Again another baseless assumption not based on facts. If you actually did some research on the subject instead of speaking before informing yourself on the facts you would see that this is one instance where corporations were less effective than the government.

So, let me get this straight. You don't blame the company who burns 80, 000 dollar hummers or two ton trucks to bill the govt. U blame the govt for paying for damaged goods... because why wouldn't they, they're sending a corporation into their own war. :facepalm: that's like blaming the insurance company when somebody creates a scheme to cheat and fraud them. Its the insurance companys fault for covering the guy... ROFL


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19122483 - 11/11/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i blame the government for going to war in the first place. they were already going to spend the money they just gave the contact to a private company instead of the military. do you really think that if they simply didn't have private contractors the defense budget wouldn't be as large as it is today?`


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122496 - 11/11/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

200 dollars today is less then 170 dollars 8 years ago

tell us more about how great we have it here


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19122647 - 11/11/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/02/06/the-federal-reserves-explicit-goal-devalue-the-dollar-33/

minimum wage is supposed to go up with inflation, it should be 8.70 right now


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap] * 1
    #19122732 - 11/11/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

we shouldn't have a minimum wage at all


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122759 - 11/11/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
we shouldn't have a minimum wage at all



Agreed


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19122905 - 11/11/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19122921 - 11/11/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No i like it new very well. I wouldn't live in any other place at any other time, but that doesn't mean i'm happy with the government


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122960 - 11/11/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You can't expect things like college, trade schools and even business to function without a minimum wage

It'd be similar to a caste system no matter what you're interpretation of the will of the ten elite families


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19122963 - 11/11/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then



I actually would have liked to have been born in the late forties and be in retirement now.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19122971 - 11/11/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
You can't expect things like college, trade schools and even business to function without a minimum wage

It'd be similar to a caste system no matter what you're interpretation of the will of the ten elite families



explain? because thats an asinine statement on every front.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19122976 - 11/11/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then



I actually would have liked to have been born in the late forties and be in retirement now.




oh great so you're one of those people that beleives hardwork pays off, you know that's when welfare and food stamps came around essentially?


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19122983 - 11/11/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
You can't expect things like college, trade schools and even business to function without a minimum wage

It'd be similar to a caste system no matter what you're interpretation of the will of the ten elite families



Dude what minimum wage limits the number of workers being hired since labor costs are one of the highest expenses a business has. If a shop pays 10 cents an hour guess what no one will work for it. It is likely that with the removal of minimum wage wages would be relatively the same. In essence you are paid what you are worth.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19122984 - 11/11/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
You can't expect things like college, trade schools and even business to function without a minimum wage

It'd be similar to a caste system no matter what you're interpretation of the will of the ten elite families



explain? because thats an asinine statement on every front.




no it's not, it's historical and worldly evidence


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19122995 - 11/11/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then



I actually would have liked to have been born in the late forties and be in retirement now.




oh great so you're one of those people that beleives hardwork pays off, you know that's when welfare and food stamps came around essentially?



No I just wanted to live in a simpler time while still being in the modern age.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19122999 - 11/11/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then



I actually would have liked to have been born in the late forties and be in retirement now.





Ah, young enough to reap the benefits of the World Wars, but young enough you wouldn't have to fight them.  So you can have decades of prosperity, and ruin the country for your children.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123000 - 11/11/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
You can't expect things like college, trade schools and even business to function without a minimum wage

It'd be similar to a caste system no matter what you're interpretation of the will of the ten elite families



explain? because thats an asinine statement on every front.




no it's not, it's historical and worldly evidence



please show me how business can't function without a minimum wage


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19123015 - 11/11/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then



I actually would have liked to have been born in the late forties and be in retirement now.




oh great so you're one of those people that beleives hardwork pays off, you know that's when welfare and food stamps came around essentially?



No I just wanted to live in a simpler time while still being in the modern age.




and reap off the welfare,min wage and food stamps that were bipartision during the economic growth that took place.

but then again if we didn't have minimums it's likely you would have went to 'nam


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19123019 - 11/11/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
you guys should go live in the 1920's, you'd like it then



I actually would have liked to have been born in the late forties and be in retirement now.





Ah, young enough to reap the benefits of the World Wars, but young enough you wouldn't have to fight them.  So you can have decades of prosperity, and ruin the country for your children.



Pretty much :tongue2:


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19123033 - 11/11/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You guys would be in a pile of corpses somewhere in the jungle after you found out the goverment handled college loans:lol:


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123080 - 11/11/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
You guys would be in a pile of corpses somewhere in the jungle after you found out the goverment handled college loans:lol:



what the fuck are you rambling about? Don't ignore my question, how would business stop working if the minimum wage was gone? Don't make silly statements unless you can back them up.

oh and you are aware of the concept of private loans right?


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123107 - 11/11/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

work without min. wage is fucking internship and forced labor

ook?


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123119 - 11/11/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

and fed min wage also is supposed to go up with inflation produced by the fed reserve like I said earlier

it's basic common sense to not get rid of something that is larger then you and has an effect on more people then you but people will always complain so this will make another night on the shroomery useless


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123133 - 11/11/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

internships are  great starts to careers :billymaythumbup: I'm a paid intern right now for a business consultancy, its great!

oh and i don't think you understand the definition of forced labor.


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123141 - 11/11/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

chin chon chin chong chin chin


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123155 - 11/11/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
chin chon chin chong chin chin



Is this it is this the best the LEFT can do?


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19123168 - 11/11/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
chin chon chin chong chin chin



Is this it is this the best the LEFT can do?



University education lol


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123228 - 11/11/13 08:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
You can't expect things like college, trade schools and even business to function without a minimum wage

It'd be similar to a caste system no matter what you're interpretation of the will of the ten elite families



Dude what minimum wage limits the number of workers being hired since labor costs are one of the highest expenses a business has. If a shop pays 10 cents an hour guess what no one will work for it. It is likely that with the removal of minimum wage wages would be relatively the same. In essence you are paid what you are worth.




Maybe not 10 cents an hour, but there would certainly be migrant workers willing to work for less than minimum wage. For every shit job that you give up, there are at least 3 workers to replace you. So in that sense, can we really make a change by refusing to accept low paying jobs? All that would come out of abolishing minimum wage is a caste system where the rich and poor become further divided, and people work for slave labor wages with no overtime pay or holidays. Let's go back to the 1920's, folks!

Quote:

psyconaught said:
i blame the government for going to war in the first place. they were already going to spend the money they just gave the contact to a private company instead of the military. do you really think that if they simply didn't have private contractors the defense budget wouldn't be as large as it is today?`




You claim that the market is far more efficient than the government. Yet corporations getting involved in prisons and the military has proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency, this is the point I'm making here.

You forget that greed is the underlying root of why political systems have failed throughout history. Greed is the reason communism has always failed, and greed is the exact same reason free-market capitalism will fail. That is why you have to use a little bit of each type of system to ensure that greed will not overtake the entire system.


Edited by Crystal G (11/11/13 09:45 PM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19123243 - 11/11/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

those instances of course they cost a lot of money. Because they had big fat government contracts that would pay anything. Things only get out of hand when government gets involved. Greed is what drives every human, the profit incentive. Capitalism simply exploits this most basic of human motivators and makes it benefit the rest of society.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19123245 - 11/11/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
You claim that the market is far more efficient than the government. Yet corporations getting involved in prisons and the military has proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency, this is the point I'm making here.




Please provide your source that supports your claim that private prisons are less cost efficient than public prisons.  Thanks in advance.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19123248 - 11/11/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Theirs a reason those jobs pay so little though literally anyone can do them the market rewards highly skilled individuals not a minimum wage worker. Our society should focus on becoming a meritocracy with laissez-faire capitalism as the economic system truly great things could be accomplished.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19123272 - 11/11/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

NERD!!

but i digress it's good to talk about this stuff rather then who banged who


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19123314 - 11/11/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
You claim that the market is far more efficient than the government. Yet corporations getting involved in prisons and the military has proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency, this is the point I'm making here.




Please provide your source that supports your claim that private prisons are less cost efficient than public prisons.  Thanks in advance.




I have one that says that they cost around the same as state prisons, despite the fact that they are intended to increase profit: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/us/19prisons.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Quote:

A 2011 report by the American Civil Liberties Union point out that private prisons are more costly, more violent and less accountable than public prisons, and are actually a major contributor to increased mass incarceration.[29]



http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/bankingonbondage_20111102.pdf

And on top of that, if you actually include the fact that private prisons only house minor offenders and therefore likely don't have to pay for things like psych treatment for the worst offenders, they would actually cost MORE than state prisons were they to actually house the same prisoners.

Again, there are more sides to efficiency than just cost. Mass incarceration, while from a corporate stand-point would technically be considered "more efficient," from a societal and government perspective, it is not and just wastes money.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19123367 - 11/11/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Theirs a reason those jobs pay so little though literally anyone can do them the market rewards highly skilled individuals not a minimum wage worker. Our society should focus on becoming a meritocracy with laissez-faire capitalism as the economic system truly great things could be accomplished.




People already have exorbitant financial incentive to create new inventions... we're talking in the millions and billions here. Exactly how would laissez-faire capitalism motivate people any more than our current system? If anything, turning all public schools into for-profit industries and discontinuing grants and financial aid would make education out of reach for a number of people. This actually means that there would be less innovations, since only people whose parents could afford education could possibly attain the mental tools and skills to use it to fruition.

Those jobs pay little, but you also have to account for people's time. People are taking themselves away from their family and from their short life and from all their dreams and the things they want to slave away at a corporation that doesn't give a shit about them. And then put in just as many hours and work just as hard, sometimes even harder, than the management or upper echelon. Don't they at the very least deserve a livable wage for that?

I mean think about it. Why do you think the welfare problem got so bad out of place to begin with? It's because CORPORATIONS DON'T PROVIDE LIVABLE WAGES FOR BASE WORKERS ANYMORE. If corporations actually provided a livable wage to begin with, people's dependence on food stamps and housing aid would go down.... a lot.


Edited by Crystal G (11/11/13 09:32 PM)


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123415 - 11/11/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
those instances of course they cost a lot of money. Because they had big fat government contracts that would pay anything. Things only get out of hand when government gets involved. Greed is what drives every human, the profit incentive. Capitalism simply exploits this most basic of human motivators and makes it benefit the rest of society.




Okay, let me ask you a question. Exactly how were they supposed to write the contract then? Clearly they should have had some kind of LAW that would have prohibited them from overcharging the US government. But wait--that wouldn't be the free market! So again, I ask you, how should have that contract have been written?

Since you are clearly about economizing everything, are we supposed to pay people to go to war for us? If so, how is that any different from paying the government to do it? And how would paying a corporation be any cheaper than paying the government? How would we prevent them from using us and overcharging us in the same way that they did the government, without breaking laissez-faire capitalism?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19123430 - 11/11/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123443 - 11/11/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?



11.50


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19123444 - 11/11/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
those instances of course they cost a lot of money. Because they had big fat government contracts that would pay anything. Things only get out of hand when government gets involved. Greed is what drives every human, the profit incentive. Capitalism simply exploits this most basic of human motivators and makes it benefit the rest of society.




Okay, let me ask you a question. Exactly how were they supposed to write the contract then? Clearly they should have had some kind of LAW that would have prohibited them from overcharging the US government. But wait--that wouldn't be the free market! So again, I ask you, how should have that contract have been written?

Since you are clearly about economizing everything, are we supposed to pay people to go to war for us? If so, how is that any different from paying the government to do it? And how would paying a corporation be any cheaper than paying the government? How would we prevent them from using us and overcharging us in the same way that they did the government, without breaking laissez-faire capitalism?



they could have a predetermined rate thats agreed upon instead of wiring blank checks. For what its worth i don't think contractors should have been over there in the first place


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123456 - 11/11/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Illyabo said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?



11.50



great. Where exactly in your ass did you locate that number? Did that account for the extreme difference in cost of living between cities? or what about children? if two people are working the same minimum wage job but one has 4 kids should he get paid more?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123464 - 11/11/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
they could have a predetermined rate thats agreed upon instead of wiring blank checks. For what its worth i don't think contractors should have been over there in the first place




How would they know how many years they were going to be in war? The government isn't psychic.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123478 - 11/11/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?



11.50



great. Where exactly in your ass did you locate that number? Did that account for the extreme difference in cost of living between cities? or what about children? if two people are working the same minimum wage job but one has 4 kids should he get paid more?




Yes, I agree with you on that. It is different between cities, and should be based upon housing/apt costs in the city as well as basic costs of living (heat, groceries, gas). There was an economist who calculated Southern California's poverty rate and asserted it would be around $36,000. $36,000 is plenty to live on if you're in Memphis, Tennessee.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught]
    #19123481 - 11/11/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Illyabo said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
not every job is meant to provide a living wage. Oh and what is a 'living wage' exactly? what number is that?



11.50



great. Where exactly in your ass did you locate that number? Did that account for the extreme difference in cost of living between cities? or what about children? if two people are working the same minimum wage job but one has 4 kids should he get paid more?




for a multi billion dollar company to pay you less then that it would have to involve either micro currency or free labor


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Konyap]
    #19123762 - 11/11/13 10:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I also forgot to add, since we were on the discussion of the Iraq War, was that one of the reasons for the Iraq War was largely the motive for profit. There was a large incentive to acquire cheap oil, and Cheney had a large incentive to profit from the war considering his $10+ million stocks in Halliburton. In this case, could you say that capitalism benefits the masses? No, the Iraq War was a classic case of capitalism benefiting the elite at the expense of the masses.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19123800 - 11/11/13 10:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I also forgot to add, since we were on the discussion of the Iraq War, was that one of the reasons for the Iraq War was largely the motive for profit. There was a large incentive to acquire cheap oil, and Cheney had a large incentive to profit from the war considering his $10+ million stocks in Halliburton. In this case, could you say that capitalism benefits the masses? No, the Iraq War was a classic case of capitalism benefiting the elite at the expense of the masses.



the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: psyconaught] * 1
    #19124095 - 11/11/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.




They really aren't that different.  Once corporations and lobbyists take over the government, it will always be the end-stage of a capitalist economy.  There is no way to avoid crony capitalism unless you want to avoid capitalism all together.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #19124215 - 11/12/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.




They really aren't that different.  Once corporations and lobbyists take over the government, it will always be the end-stage of a capitalist economy.  There is no way to avoid crony capitalism unless you want to avoid capitalism all together.




That's what I'm failing to understand too. So it's like... "crony capitalism," aka capitalism that is invested and intertwined with government is bad for society... yet capitalism should be free to rule the world with no restrictions?? Plus doesn't "free-market enterprise" also include the ability for corporations to freely fund whatever politician or lobbyist they want for whatever political agendas of their choosing?

At least bank bailouts you can argue are not technically capitalism. But the Iraq War is the embodiment of it. Everything about it, from the motive to the privatization of it.


Edited by Crystal G (11/12/13 12:21 AM)


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19125019 - 11/12/13 05:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Neither of your sources support your claim that "corporations getting involved in prisons . . . has proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency"

One of your sources says that private prisons cost the same as public prisons and the other source says that the data is mixed.  To quote the ACLU report YOU cited:

"Evidence that private prisons save public money is mixed at best. While some research supports such a view, numerous other studies and reports have indicated that private prisons do not save money, cannot be demonstrated to save money in meaningful amounts, or may even cost more than governmentally operated prisons."

Where is your source for the claim that corporate prisons have proven to be the exact opposite of cost-efficiency?  Or did you just pull that out of your ass?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19125244 - 11/12/13 07:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
The reason they used to say capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy, was because back in societies such as ancient Greece, when you were born an aristocrat, you were expected to use your own money to benefit the masses. You were expected to use your own money to fund irrigation systems and public roads and things of that nature. You were considered a man of the gods, and the reason you were bestowed with that power was because you were directly sent from heaven. So if you were an aristocrat, that was considered your duty in society--to give back to the people.





and in the US today, the bulk of everything is paid for by the wealthy, then
a minority of things is payed by the middle class while the poor arent paying
anything but frequently getting money for nothing... so guess what, nothing
has changed


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19125251 - 11/12/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
That's what I'm failing to understand too. So it's like... "crony capitalism," aka capitalism that is invested and intertwined with government is bad for society...





you mean like Obamacare, it's a great example of crony capitalism


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19126369 - 11/12/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Theirs a reason those jobs pay so little though literally anyone can do them the market rewards highly skilled individuals not a minimum wage worker. Our society should focus on becoming a meritocracy with laissez-faire capitalism as the economic system truly great things could be accomplished.




People already have exorbitant financial incentive to create new inventions... we're talking in the millions and billions here. Exactly how would laissez-faire capitalism motivate people any more than our current system? If anything, turning all public schools into for-profit industries and discontinuing grants and financial aid would make education out of reach for a number of people. This actually means that there would be less innovations, since only people whose parents could afford education could possibly attain the mental tools and skills to use it to fruition.

Those jobs pay little, but you also have to account for people's time. People are taking themselves away from their family and from their short life and from all their dreams and the things they want to slave away at a corporation that doesn't give a shit about them. And then put in just as many hours and work just as hard, sometimes even harder, than the management or upper echelon. Don't they at the very least deserve a livable wage for that?

I mean think about it. Why do you think the welfare problem got so bad out of place to begin with? It's because CORPORATIONS DON'T PROVIDE LIVABLE WAGES FOR BASE WORKERS ANYMORE. If corporations actually provided a livable wage to begin with, people's dependence on food stamps and housing aid would go down.... a lot.



Corporations have no duty to pay "livable wages" whatever that means they have a duty to maximize profit. Now does that mean corporations are anti poor people of course not! They have raised the standard of living for everyone exponentially. People are much better off today than they were 100 years ago and that is due in large part to corporations and business in general. Are there losers in life sure, but I think in the quest to make it so nobody can lose at life will in fact create a society in which mediocrity and totalitarianism run rampant.


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19126384 - 11/12/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
the iraq war was a classic example of crony capitalism. Just like the bank bailouts. Those are not examples of capitalism but rather crony capitalism. Two different things all together.




They really aren't that different.  Once corporations and lobbyists take over the government, it will always be the end-stage of a capitalist economy.  There is no way to avoid crony capitalism unless you want to avoid capitalism all together.




That's what I'm failing to understand too. So it's like... "crony capitalism," aka capitalism that is invested and intertwined with government is bad for society... yet capitalism should be free to rule the world with no restrictions?? Plus doesn't "free-market enterprise" also include the ability for corporations to freely fund whatever politician or lobbyist they want for whatever political agendas of their choosing?

At least bank bailouts you can argue are not technically capitalism. But the Iraq War is the embodiment of it. Everything about it, from the motive to the privatization of it.



No crony capitalism is not true capitalism at all for crony capitalism is in fact the merger of corporate and state power like obamacare, bank bailouts Iraq war etc. In order for crony capitalism to work though you need a large overbearing government in the first place. If we had a tiny government with well defined constitutional barriers to its growth we would not be in the mess we are in today.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126388 - 11/12/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

In order for crony capitalism to work though you need a large overbearing government in the first place. If we had a tiny government with well defined constitutional barriers to its growth we would not be in the mess we are in today.




We can all talk in hypotheticals and pretend that we are right :shrug:


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126406 - 11/12/13 01:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

In order for crony capitalism to work though you need a large overbearing government in the first place. If we had a tiny government with well defined constitutional barriers to its growth we would not be in the mess we are in today.




We can all talk in hypotheticals and pretend that we are right :shrug:



Sure but do you have a critique of my hypothesis?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126417 - 11/12/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I would say that a smaller government would be even more likely to be overtaken by the wealthy than a larger one.  I guess it also depends on how you define "tiny government."


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126446 - 11/12/13 01:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
I would say that a smaller government would be even more likely to be overtaken by the wealthy than a larger one.  I guess it also depends on how you define "tiny government."



Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.


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Edited by Gilgamesh18 (11/12/13 01:44 PM)


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126453 - 11/12/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

if the government was smaller wouldn't it matter less if politics were involved?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126459 - 11/12/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.




If you take away government, you will be left with private interests filling the role, and usually private interests are only interested in making themselves more money.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126463 - 11/12/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.




If you take away government, you will be left with private interests filling the role, and usually private interests are only interested in making themselves more money.



who said anyone wanted to take away the government?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126466 - 11/12/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.




If you take away government, you will be left with private interests filling the role, and usually private interests are only interested in making themselves more money.



And so what how is that bad private entities are more efficient. Also to clarify I am not an anarchist I support a small limited government.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126524 - 11/12/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You have no historical perspective. Most of the state involvement you rail against so much was instituted because corporations and wealth were running rampant. Time and time again big business has proven that it does not check itself. It pushes for its own benefit regardless of who it hurts, up to, and often past, any boundaries we create. Government policies aren't created in a vacuum, they're attempts to solve real problems.

You cannot petition a corporation to stop dumping toxic waste into your well water, they would just laugh at you. You can however vote in representation that will regulate that business into doing so.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #19126584 - 11/12/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
You have no historical perspective. Most of the state involvement you rail against so much was instituted because corporations and wealth were running rampant. Time and time again big business has proven that it does not check itself. It pushes for its own benefit regardless of who it hurts, up to, and often past, any boundaries we create. Government policies aren't created in a vacuum, they're attempts to solve real problems.

You cannot petition a corporation to stop dumping toxic waste into your well water, they would just laugh at you. You can however vote in representation that will regulate that business into doing so.



The fundamental goal of environmentalists is not clean air and clean water; rather it is the demolition of technological/industrial civilization. Their goal is not the advancement of human health, human happiness, and human life; rather it is a subhuman world where “nature” is worshiped like the totem of some primitive religion.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126590 - 11/12/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That is idiotic.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Lynnch]
    #19126604 - 11/12/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
That is idiotic.



I agree environmentalists are morons


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126608 - 11/12/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
The fundamental goal of environmentalists is not clean air and clean water; rather it is the demolition of technological/industrial civilization. Their goal is not the advancement of human health, human happiness, and human life; rather it is a subhuman world where “nature” is worshiped like the totem of some primitive religion.




:rofl2:

Uh, what?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126620 - 11/12/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
The fundamental goal of environmentalists is not clean air and clean water; rather it is the demolition of technological/industrial civilization. Their goal is not the advancement of human health, human happiness, and human life; rather it is a subhuman world where “nature” is worshiped like the totem of some primitive religion.




:rofl2:

Uh, what?



Environmentalists are at there core anti-human and anti scientific progress. Since I like living in a world built upon rationality and scientific advancement I oppose them.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19126638 - 11/12/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:rofl2:

This thread just fell off the deep end.  I'm done here.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19126652 - 11/12/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I find your willful misconstruction and ignorance appalling.
Do you drink your water and breathe your air with trust that it is clean? You can thank an environmentalist. Simple as that.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19128499 - 11/12/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.




If you take away government, you will be left with private interests filling the role, and usually private interests are only interested in making themselves more money.



And so what how is that bad private entities are more efficient. Also to clarify I am not an anarchist I support a small limited government.




I don't think the private entities are always more efficient. A single payer health insurance system is more efficient that hundreds of private insurance companies, each negotiating their own prices.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: koods]
    #19128582 - 11/12/13 08:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.




If you take away government, you will be left with private interests filling the role, and usually private interests are only interested in making themselves more money.



And so what how is that bad private entities are more efficient. Also to clarify I am not an anarchist I support a small limited government.




I don't think the private entities are always more efficient. A single payer health insurance system is more efficient that hundreds of private insurance companies, each negotiating their own prices.



A monopoly is never a good thing


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 2
    #19128589 - 11/12/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That isn't true. Having a monopoly doubles the rent and allows you to build houses on the properties.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19128662 - 11/12/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
The fundamental goal of environmentalists is not clean air and clean water; rather it is the demolition of technological/industrial civilization. Their goal is not the advancement of human health, human happiness, and human life; rather it is a subhuman world where “nature” is worshiped like the totem of some primitive religion.




:rofl2:

Uh, what?



Environmentalists are at there core anti-human and anti scientific progress. Since I like living in a world built upon rationality and scientific advancement I oppose them.




How are water filters and desalinated water and solar power and electric cars anti-scientific?


Edited by Crystal G (11/12/13 09:14 PM)


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19129304 - 11/12/13 11:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
The fundamental goal of environmentalists is not clean air and clean water; rather it is the demolition of technological/industrial civilization. Their goal is not the advancement of human health, human happiness, and human life; rather it is a subhuman world where “nature” is worshiped like the totem of some primitive religion.




:rofl2:

Uh, what?



Environmentalists are at there core anti-human and anti scientific progress. Since I like living in a world built upon rationality and scientific advancement I oppose them.




How are water filters and desalinated water and solar power and electric cars anti-scientific?



Most environmentalists I interact with are opposed to modern industrialism in all its forms. I have had actual conversations with greenpeace activists were they have said that they wish a virus would kill most of humanity. They then went on about how we need to return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle :rofl:


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19129377 - 11/12/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Everybody should just give up. Gilgamesh18 already claimed he won this thread by making retarded statements.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19129411 - 11/12/13 11:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Everybody should just give up. Gilgamesh18 already claimed he won this thread by making retarded statements.



Hey mush lets keep it civil


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19129432 - 11/12/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Everybody should just give up. Gilgamesh18 already claimed he won this thread by making retarded statements.



Hey mush lets keep it civil




I was trying to keep it civil until you claimed that environmentalists are trying to destroy scientific advancement or whatever your bullshit argument was.  And then sent me a PM saying you "won your capitalism thread" by making such retarded statements.

Let's keep it civil by not falling off the deep end in the first place, ok champ?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19129442 - 11/12/13 11:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Everybody should just give up. Gilgamesh18 already claimed he won this thread by making retarded statements.



Hey mush lets keep it civil




I was trying to keep it civil until you claimed that environmentalists are trying to destroy scientific advancement or whatever your bullshit argument was.  And then sent me a PM saying you "won your capitalism thread" by making such retarded statements.

Let's keep it civil by not falling off the deep end in the first place, ok champ?



I only said I won because you claimed you were abandoning the thread also I sent the pm in jest I had no hostile intention


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19129450 - 11/12/13 11:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have a massive wiener.

Ok, it's not "massive" but it is formidable.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19129452 - 11/13/13 12:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
I have a massive wiener.

Ok, it's not "massive" but it is formidable.



:damnwtf:


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19129454 - 11/13/13 12:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I just won this thread.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19129460 - 11/13/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
How are water filters and desalinated water and solar power and electric cars anti-scientific?



Most environmentalists I interact with are opposed to modern industrialism in all its forms. I have had actual conversations with greenpeace activists were they have said that they wish a virus would kill most of humanity. They then went on about how we need to return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle :rofl:




Simply because all anti-industrialist green-peace activist hippies are environmentalists doesn't mean all environmentalists are anti-industrialist. There are tons of technological advancements that will revolutionize industries and societies that are built on environmentalism. Electric cars, solar power, wind turbines, and desalinated water being some big ones.

The fact that a lot of these green-peace people use the internet and carry cell-phones would signify they are not completely against industrialism, probably just certain kinds of industry. Ever notice that green-peace people also enjoy drugs, particularly LSD and herb? Well, you need chemistry and technology to create these things. I don't think they're anti-technology, they're probably anti-corporatism which is a different thing entirely.

I've also met environmentalists who are vegetarians and also do testing for the USDA organic sector. That's a pretty scientific job if you ask me.

Although if you ask me, a virus that would wipe out half the population certainly would take care of the over-population problem and over-consumption of resources. :lol:


Edited by Crystal G (11/13/13 01:17 AM)


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19130071 - 11/13/13 05:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:

Although if you ask me, a virus that would wipe out half the population certainly would take care of the over-population problem and over-consumption of resources. :lol:



This is the first good idea I've ever seen you post.  Half isn't really enough, though.  A 90-95% reduction would be much better.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19131744 - 11/13/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The truly wealthy line the pockets of the pols to write legislation that benefits them at the cost of the little guy. This is not capitalism, more like cronyism.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19131955 - 11/13/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:

Although if you ask me, a virus that would wipe out half the population certainly would take care of the over-population problem and over-consumption of resources. :lol:



This is the first good idea I've ever seen you post.  Half isn't really enough, though.  A 90-95% reduction would be much better.




95% is too much I think. If there was some kind of famine or disease epidemic, there's a chance it would wipe out quite a lot of civilization almost to extinction. There would also need to be a certain percentage of the population that could work as farmers, doctors, technological innovators and engineers, firefighters, pharmacists, scientists, and police officers, to be able to sustain society.


Edited by Crystal G (11/13/13 05:57 PM)


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19132093 - 11/13/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nah...that's why it's gotta be a high percentage.  You want to make sure that there aren't enough people around that actually know how to run the current infrastructure.  The point is to set civilization back at least a thousand years or so.

The species will survive, but it'll take a long time before we get back to this point...that way, the earth and other species get a bit of a break while humanity recovers.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19132114 - 11/13/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Nah...that's why it's gotta be a high percentage.  You want to make sure that there aren't enough people around that actually know how to run the current infrastructure.  The point is to set civilization back at least a thousand years or so.

The species will survive, but it'll take a long time before we get back to this point...that way, the earth and other species get a bit of a break while humanity recovers.




Well, I'm only concerned that if 95 percent of the population goes extinct and humanity goes back 1,000 years and people arent educated we risk going extinct sue or ill due to lack of sanitation, or people waging dumbass wars over religion, or wiping out from diseases. We would need chemists to create treatment and vaccines and bleach and soap and things like that.

I'm in favor of starting out with a virus that wipes out the uneducated bottom class that keeps popping out baby after baby. They contribute nothing to society except overpopulation. And the billionaires that spend tens of thousands of dollars a month to heat their fourty acre homes, they are reaponsible for the most overconsumption and waste of resources.

What do you know enlil, I'm starting to like you.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19132129 - 11/13/13 04:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're right tho, we wouldn't need engineers at this point. In order to accomplish what we would be accomplishing,  engineers would be useless.  They would just create pollution and be responsible for eradicating books from society and for creating even more powerful weapons such as nukes. If nukes were available back when christianity emerged, society would have ended right there. Kill all engineers too.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19132208 - 11/13/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You gotta figure that many won't know how to survive, but there will certainly be some that do....particularly in the regions of the planet where the climate lends itself to easy survival and abundant food.  After a generation or two, the technology and lifestyle of today will just be a story told when people look at machines they no longer know how to run. 

Communication and travel will be severely limited, so it'll be awhile before people start to work together on any kind of regional scale...and global communication will be far in the future.

I don't like the idea of picking the dead by education level or anything like that.  I like a totally random process.  Even the highly educated will mostly be ineffective in the post-viral world because specialization tends to make those people highly reliant on other people.

There will be a few outliers who will take the time to figure out how to approximate the life they had, but they will die off, and only a few of these outliers will adequately educate their children.  Those children will probably not adequately educate theirs, etc.

Eventually, mankind will begin the slow trek back up the ladder, and it will happen faster than it happened the first time since there will be so much help from the relics that are left around.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19132261 - 11/13/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:x
I'm in favor of starting out with a virus that wipes out the uneducated bottom class that keeps popping out baby after baby. They contribute nothing to society except overpopulation. And the billionaires that spend tens of thousands of dollars a month to heat their fourty acre homes, they are reaponsible for the most overconsumption and waste of resources.





Holy fuck, you and Hitler could have been great friends.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19132273 - 11/13/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:x
I'm in favor of starting out with a virus that wipes out the uneducated bottom class that keeps popping out baby after baby. They contribute nothing to society except overpopulation. And the billionaires that spend tens of thousands of dollars a month to heat their fourty acre homes, they are reaponsible for the most overconsumption and waste of resources.





Holy fuck, you and Hitler could have been great friends.




What if perhaps we engineered a virus like the genophage and you could only give birth if you had enough money to buy a cure?

It's evil yes, but is it really wrong?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19132399 - 11/13/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're right tho, we wouldn't need engineers at this point. In order to accomplish what we would be accomplishing,  engineers would be useless.  They would just create pollution and be responsible for eradicating books from society and for creating even more powerful weaponssuch as nukes. Kill all engineers too.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19132403 - 11/13/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

We also wouldn't need double posting.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19132420 - 11/13/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think you both should lead the way and set an example.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19132434 - 11/13/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't care whether I was chosen to die or not...as long as everyone else had an equal chance of being chosen.

If I didn't, however, I could definitely survive the aftermath.  Once I got myself set up, I'd start recruiting a harem of women who want to survive but lack the skills.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19132482 - 11/13/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I wouldn't care whether I was chosen to die or not...as long as everyone else had an equal chance of being chosen.




Why?  I'm not interested in your stupid fucking lottery at all and I think most people are probably similarly inclined so the only solution for you is to eradicate 100% of the people who think depopulation is a good idea.  Go do it right now.
Quote:



If I didn't, however, I could definitely survive the aftermath.  Once I got myself set up, I'd start recruiting a harem of women who want to survive but lack the skills.




Right.  As a lawyer you could no doubt grow an awesome garden from the fertilizer of your professional verbiage.  Mankind has been doing it for millenia.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19132503 - 11/13/13 06:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The lottery notion is really just a metaphor for whatever random process causes the population reduction, whether it be a virus, nuclear winter, asteroid strike, whatever it takes.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19132520 - 11/13/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You postulated a chooser, not I.  I merely suggested that you assume that role and choose yourself as an example for others to follow.

You really don't want to go down this route.  You have done enough already but as an opt out you have no business extolling the virtue of future mass death.  You have no skin in the game.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19132523 - 11/13/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have skin in the game until I'm dead.  After that, you're right...I really don't give a fuck what happens to the planet.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Enlil]
    #19132528 - 11/13/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well???????????????????????  Will that be your last post?


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19132539 - 11/13/13 06:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm going to live until I die.  You're just going to have to be patient.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19132683 - 11/13/13 07:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think you both should lead the way and set an example.




:thumbup:


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19133020 - 11/13/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:x
I'm in favor of starting out with a virus that wipes out the uneducated bottom class that keeps popping out baby after baby. They contribute nothing to society except overpopulation. And the billionaires that spend tens of thousands of dollars a month to heat their fourty acre homes, they are reaponsible for the most overconsumption and waste of resources.





Holy fuck, you and Hitler could have been great friends.




Well, I wouldn't really do it. The humanist in me would feel too bad seeing people lose their loved ones and family members. I don't want to bring that kind of pain and suffering to anybody. But if I was God, like a sociopathic god who was cold and calculating and only cared about numbers and efficiency like some corporate whore, that is what I would do.


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19133036 - 11/13/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:x
I'm in favor of starting out with a virus that wipes out the uneducated bottom class that keeps popping out baby after baby. They contribute nothing to society except overpopulation. And the billionaires that spend tens of thousands of dollars a month to heat their fourty acre homes, they are reaponsible for the most overconsumption and waste of resources.





Holy fuck, you and Hitler could have been great friends.




Well, I wouldn't really do it. The humanist in me would feel too bad seeing people lose their loved ones and family members. I don't want to bring that kind of pain and suffering to anybody. But if I was God, like a sociopathic god who was cold and calculating and only cared about numbers and efficiency like some corporate whore, that is what I would do.




I'd do it, I don't give a fuck, even if I died in the process.

I feel it kind of needs to be done and in the end tnere'd end up being less suffering in the world.


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OfflineSmokey420
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19133199 - 11/13/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19133235 - 11/13/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Well, I wouldn't really do it. The humanist in me would feel too bad seeing people lose their loved ones and family members. I don't want to bring that kind of pain and suffering to anybody. But if I was God, like a sociopathic god who was cold and calculating and only cared about numbers and efficiency like some corporate whore, that is what I would do.





Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Holy fuck, you and Hitler could have been great friends.




It doesn't matter that you "wouldn't really do it."  To even suggest something like that puts you in a group of really awful people.  Like zappa said, maybe you should lead the charge of mass extermination, and lead by example.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19133240 - 11/13/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mjmihalov said:
I'd do it, I don't give a fuck, even if I died in the process.

I feel it kind of needs to be done and in the end tnere'd end up being less suffering in the world.




Less suffering for who?


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19133257 - 11/13/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

mjmihalov said:
I'd do it, I don't give a fuck, even if I died in the process.

I feel it kind of needs to be done and in the end tnere'd end up being less suffering in the world.




Less suffering for who?




Everyone, starving, diseased infested people to start with.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19133375 - 11/13/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
It doesn't matter that you "wouldn't really do it."  To even suggest something like that puts you in a group of really awful people.  Like zappa said, maybe you should lead the charge of mass extermination, and lead by example.




Does it? Even a pedophile who has thoughts of attraction towards children aren't bad, cause that's what they're attracted to, they are only bad if they act upon it.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19133393 - 11/13/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I vomit a little in my mouth every time, but I actually agree with you on this one.

We all commit horrible atrocities in our minds.  Actions are what define our characters.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19133395 - 11/13/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I would put a pedophile who doesn't act on their urges above someone who wants to exterminate the poor and uneducated.  To say something like that and not even once ask if you, yourself, would be considered to be in such a group is laughable. 

You can defend yourself all you want.  You've made your point clear.  You like genocide.  Maybe you should go to a third world country where genocide is happening and help with the slaughter.  That way you could get your jollies off while killing the poor and uneducated. 



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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19133421 - 11/13/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
I would put a pedophile who doesn't act on their urges above someone who wants to exterminate the poor and uneducated.  To say something like that and not even once ask if you, yourself, would be considered to be in such a group is laughable.




No. I am not poor or uneducated, and I am also single and don't have any babies. I have never in my life been on any kind of food stamps of financial welfare (unless you count student loans, but I'm paying those back with interest so the government is making money off me). I am neither obese, and the resources that I use are very minimal. Regardless, I wasn't for eradicating the poor. The working class is actually very useful for businesses (without the working class the rich wouldn't even exist), and they tend to have very funny and easygoing personalities.

What I said was, that it would be beneficial for the world if a virus wiped out people who kept popping out baby after baby after baby, which STATISTICALLY tends to be the poor and uneducated.

However, I also said that people who are extravagantly wealthy and wasteful of resources should be included, such as the guy who pays $40,000 a month heating cost for his $30 million mansion. Why didn't you mention that?

Quote:

You can defend yourself all you want.  You've made your point clear.  You like genocide.  Maybe you should go to a third world country where genocide is happening and help with the slaughter.  That way you could get your jollies off while killing the poor and uneducated.




People who physically assault other people are much worse than people who merely think about genocide. Our society already approves of genocide and torture, it's called patriotism for military service. Anybody who says they have never once thought about killing or hurting somebody they despise is a liar. The difference is whether you act on it or not. You can have all the thoughts you want, you're only human, what differentiates you between human and monster is whether you act upon it or not.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19133447 - 11/13/13 09:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Saying that somebody is bad for thinking about genocide, is like saying that somebody is bad for writing a book about torture and genocide. Except that thoughts are even more innate to your nature than written words. You are allowed to not like the words all you want. But prosecuting somebody for having a mere thought or writing something is a clear violation of freedom.

If this is the case, then I would say you are a bad person too. After all, people are racist, as a matter of fact everybody is subconsciously racist deep down to some degree. The difference is whether you act on it and choose to discriminate or not. If you try your best to suppress your inert racism, then your racist thoughts don't make you a bad person.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G]
    #19133474 - 11/13/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You're not poor or uneducated according to yourself.  This super virus you want to destroy 50% of the population might not see it the same way. 

Also, if you think I am defending the super wealthy then you need to diversify the boards you go to and find a little more out about me before you make such a ridiculous claim. 

But seriously.  You can go help the genocide in third world countries if that is what you desire so much.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19133929 - 11/13/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
You're not poor or uneducated according to yourself.  This super virus you want to destroy 50% of the population might not see it the same way.




Well, if it's a virus then it wouldn't really target anybody specifically, except that the children and the elderly would be at a disadvantage.

I'm also not one of those people that needs to live a long life, and I invite death when it comes. I'm actually almost excited for it.

Plus, I never ever said that poor people are the target. I said that only people who are over-consuming or breeding too much would be the target. The end result would be that poor people would more often end up dying, simply because they tend to be the ones that breed too often. The extravagantly wealthy who waste resources and money would also inevitably end up being targets.

But I'll entertain you. If we are going by how poor and uneducated somebody is, it means that virtually all third world and developing countries would be eradicated first. I don't have the exact numbers, but if you are considered middle-class in America, then what percentage of the world does that make you? The top 10%? The top 20%? I don't really know. But it definitely wouldn't be around top 50%.

Quote:

Also, if you think I am defending the super wealthy then you need to diversify the boards you go to and find a little more out about me before you make such a ridiculous claim.




I have been reading throughout the thread and know you are not defending wealthy people. But you accused me of being discriminatory against the poor, which I was not. The wealthy consume more than the poor actually if you only account per individual.

Quote:

But seriously.  You can go help the genocide in third world countries if that is what you desire so much.




I don't need to. They are doing it themselves. If it isn't the cannibal warlods in Liberia or the Armenian persecution and genocide in Turkey, it's always something else.


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Invisiblesetb
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #19134754 - 11/14/13 04:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

except that the children and the elderly would be at a disadvantage




The Spanish flu killed more young, healthy adults.

Quote:


Plus, I never ever said that poor people are the target. I said that only people who are over-consuming or breeding too much would be the target. The end result would be that poor people would more often end up dying, simply because they tend to be the ones that breed too often. The extravagantly wealthy who waste resources and money would also inevitably end up being targets.




Yep, you'd fit in nicely with the 20th century Progressives/Socialists.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: setb]
    #19137350 - 11/14/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Rich people or corporations don't run society though the state does and it collects your wealth through taxes to fund itself. If you dislike a business you can boycott it. You can not however successfully boycott taxes and get away with it. A small state allows individuals to truly pursue there own dreams without being crushed by the collective.




If you take away government, you will be left with private interests filling the role, and usually private interests are only interested in making themselves more money.



And so what how is that bad private entities are more efficient. Also to clarify I am not an anarchist I support a small limited government.




I don't think the private entities are always more efficient. A single payer health insurance system is more efficient that hundreds of private insurance companies, each negotiating their own prices.




not in the US, in the US more is consumed by government waste than in the private sector

Quote:

setb said:
Quote:


Plus, I never ever said that poor people are the target. I said that only people who are over-consuming or breeding too much would be the target. The end result would be that poor people would more often end up dying, simply because they tend to be the ones that breed too often. The extravagantly wealthy who waste resources and money would also inevitably end up being targets.




Yep, you'd fit in nicely with the 20th century Progressives/Socialists.




that's probably because she's a 'progressive'


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #19137408 - 11/14/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
not in the US, in the US more is consumed by government waste than in the private sector





I think that's silly. Does the government collect our money and then just set fire to it? Bury it in a hole somewhere? Besides Iraq no,  They collect money to immediately spend on things, here now. You know where the money collected for foodstamps goes? To Walmart- where people exchange foodstamps for food. Walmart gets the money then wastes it by paying their CEOs more than they deserve.

Annnyway. I think this quote is relevant:

Quote:

"As things stand these days, we have ceased to see ourselves as living in a society and gotten used to seeing ourselves as being part of an economy.

Economies are only the ways societies feed and shelter themselves, which means they are only about money and how it works. But our particular economy is about making more money. More and more of it. Obscene amounts of it, for its own sake. And it works by treating all of us as interchangeable and disposable. We only matter to the degree we are useful to the making of more money. Once we are deemed not useful, once we are disposed of, that’s it. We cease to matter. Except as problems.

And costs.

This is not true.

It’s only the way things are because we’ve given control of the money and the making of money to assholes.

We aren’t here to make assholes money.

In the words of Dr Vonnegut, the novelist’s son, we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is."




We are not just customers and employees. We are People first.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Lynnch]
    #19137445 - 11/14/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes.  We are people.  We are not society.  Society is a fiction.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Lynnch]
    #19137471 - 11/14/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
not in the US, in the US more is consumed by government waste than in the private sector





I think that's silly. Does the government collect our money and then just set fire to it? Bury it in a hole somewhere? Besides Iraq no,  They collect money to immediately spend on things, here now. You know where the money collected for foodstamps goes? To Walmart- where people exchange foodstamps for food. Walmart gets the money then wastes it by paying their CEOs more than they deserve.







what the fuck are you on about

taxes are collected for welfare programs, 3/4 of it is wasted in the
bureaucracy, the same goes for most government spending.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19137488 - 11/14/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Society is more real than the economy. We would still be human creatures interacting with each other even if we chose not to value money any more.

You could say the same for the administration of any business. "Whoa gee, we'd save tons of money if everyone were slaves, we could get rid of the payroll department!"


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #19137504 - 11/14/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

its more economically beneficial to have paid workers because people on the pay roll have been shown to have levels of output orders of magnitude above slaves.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: Lynnch]
    #19137526 - 11/14/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
Society is more real than the economy. We would still be human creatures interacting with each other even if we chose not to value money any more.. 


Well, no.  Money is not a sine qua non of an economy but I think the concept of an economy is just as much of a fiction as that of a society.  People tend to be lazy thinkers.
Quote:



You could say the same for the administration of any business. "Whoa gee, we'd save tons of money if everyone were slaves, we could get rid of the payroll department!"




No.  You would still have to feed and house the slaves.  Slave labor is not necessarily cheap labor.


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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19137574 - 11/14/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Lynnch said:
Society is more real than the economy. We would still be human creatures interacting with each other even if we chose not to value money any more.. 


Well, no.  Money is not a sine qua non of an economy but I think the concept of an economy is just as much of a fiction as that of a society.  People tend to be lazy thinkers.
Quote:



You could say the same for the administration of any business. "Whoa gee, we'd save tons of money if everyone were slaves, we could get rid of the payroll department!"




No.  You would still have to feed and house the slaves.  Slave labor is not necessarily cheap labor.




Not if you subcontracted the slaves. Think outside the box, Zappa. I thought you were a hard nosed businessman.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: koods]
    #19137665 - 11/14/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Subbing out what?  The slaves?  Why would I do that when I can sub you out and pay less?


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19138093 - 11/14/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm pretty sure that was a burn, or did this discussion just jump wildly to the topic of bdsm?
Err, It's not about the slaves! Get rid of payroll, and well actually all of upper management, and we'd save a ton of money! Or we could stop production entirely, therefore there would be nothing to buy, so we wouldn't be able to spend any money which equals huge savings everywhere!
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Well, no.  Money is not a sine qua non of an economy but I think the concept of an economy is just as much of a fiction as that of a society.  People tend to be lazy thinkers.



I tend to agree with you, but my idea is more that people interacting with people is more a core action than people bartering with each other and selling their own time and energy for goods. In some strange way, I feel society could exist without an economy. But an economy couldn't exist without society.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Capitalism benefits the masses more so than the wealthy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19138104 - 11/14/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes.  We are people.  We are not society.  Society is a fiction.




:lolsy:

Ok, zappa.  Society is a fiction.  :lol:

I mean, do you even think about the shit you say before you say it?

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Subbing out what?  The slaves?  Why would I do that when I can sub you out and pay less?





Just like you pay your illegal immigrants who work for you?


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