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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Fear of death or fear of no self?
#19112505 - 11/09/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I remember from a while ago reading a line in one of Jed Mckenna's books that people aren't afraid of death, they are actually afraid of the self not being real, and that death is only a shadow of no self.
Now, when I ponder Icelanders definition of enlightenment; to have no death anxiety either conscious or unconscious, I wonder, and I believe Icelander does as well, whether this even possible to do while still living. After all, the biological drive for life is quite strong. However, I feel the important part of this definition is the lack of attachment to this life.
If fear of death is the impediment, then there is hard work involved. The self, which exists now, must give up attachment to it's own existence. There is something to let go of, to release.
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
If there is no attachment to this life, then whether one fears death or not is of no significance. Fear will come and go, like any other phenomena.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19112652 - 11/09/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Regardless of whether or not you are aware of the fact that fear, like all other things, is a passing thing, it doesn't stop you from living the life biology has meant you to live and fearing that which must pass (death). Its like saying, don't worry about your debt, some people out there are fighting just to stay fed and not get killed by their government. You know its true, but it doesn't make your current station in life any less real to you.
I once heard it said that to fear death is as ridiculous as to fear birth. As an atheist I do not fear death since death is a return to nothingness. The fear, as you mentioned, is almost entirely due to the drive to live. But I think that if most people were given the opportunity to live forever, they would regret that decision sooner than they thought they would
--------------------
A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: bloodsheen]
#19112710 - 11/09/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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How is the self a different entity from what is called the world? Literally speaking. No metaphor, no complicated idea... it is actually the same thing. At least this is true of the mind, surely you've noticed that.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
#19113472 - 11/10/13 06:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree with him. What we fear most is that this is just a puppet show. But death is still the best signifier of that to us so to all intents and purposes Becker's theory works just the same under that bracket. I still think we fear the brutality of death to some extent though (you'd be mad not to and besides it's basic biology), but the main fear and what separates human fear from typical animal behaviour is fear of loss of illusory self.
I don't think that changes whether or not it might be accomplishable in a life time either. It seems at least extremely rare either way.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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hTx
(:



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Grapefruit]
#19113484 - 11/10/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the self is already lost always, I mean really..
Can you find it, anywhere?
Change is the only constant, remember that, remember that you are change, and therefore, constant.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: hTx]
#19113543 - 11/10/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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We all develop attachments
and I think it must be the attachment to the world, your family, your identity, your life / things you didnt get done you want to do, that is the fear
if you live in the moment it is all reduced
we still develop attachments all the time though... meditation helps reduce attachments
less is more , more appreciation we already have what we need all the time
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19113547 - 11/10/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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thoughts,desires,emotions create attachment, suffering
buddhism :-)
its that attachment you will have to give up when you die probably, creates fear of losing the brain very quickly develops attachments to everything
your cell phone, your house, your job, having money, your family, your friends, your pets, your identity, getting new stuff like everyone else... etc
you dont want to lose any of it
but we only lose what we are attached to
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore] 1
#19113570 - 11/10/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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if you can develop a mind without attachments to anything you can experience death at any time
no self / oneness
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19113649 - 11/10/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I suggest it's not fear of death or of dissolution but fear of awareness of dying and awareness of the pain of dissolution that is the real fear.
The real fear is fear of awareness.
-------------------- ...or something
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all this beauty
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19113802 - 11/10/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Fear of death serves an evolutionary purpose. If it didn't, we wouldn't experience it.
(Unless, of course, you view the universe as some kind of malevolent trickster that's forever putting obstacles in our way -- obstacles that need removing.)
Fear of death prevents me from jumping off a cliff merely to experience the bliss of flight and total, momentary, freedom. It's also a primary reason that people fuck and make babies. We fear not being remembered. Not leaving behind a part of ourselves.
Quote:
White Beard said: However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
Or...perhaps when one realizes one has always been everything.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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If you have transcendent awareness you dont fear losing your awareness / dieing in the physical body
for you are everything you see and has always been, you are me, you are everyone you see
life is a long dream / hallucination , everything is one
but many people fear death because they think theyre unique would be a shame to let that uniqueness go to waste, when they didnt even get done what they wanted done
rush before death, instead of spending everyday in the life
but there is a difference between fearing death and seeking death you might still want to spend as much time as possible here in this life dunno, wouldnt jump off buildings, only in lucid dreams 
LSD i.e. can make us see the continuous process of death and birth, call it a hallucination, but I believe it is the truth
just a quick writeout, bbl.
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Yogi1
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19113883 - 11/10/13 09:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I detect a lot of death anxiety.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Yogi1]
#19113892 - 11/10/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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true, its almost impossible to get rid of :-)
wanting to stay here for as long as possible is death anxiety too heh
instead of just accepting death any day
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Yogi1
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19113919 - 11/10/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Death is death. May you all have the blissful re connection to god you're going for. I just don't have such high expectations for the blade of grass that I am.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Yogi1]
#19113948 - 11/10/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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god is bliss and love :-)
wouldnt mind reconnecting with that and god is in all of us
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19114044 - 11/10/13 10:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I can honestly say I can die as long as it is not horribly, painfully or undignified (ie. some rapist-murderer takes me out). When my time comes around there won't be any fear. I can clearly see that too much is going on to suggest everything is going to be alright or everything is alright in the universe. My physical life is not important, and I suspect I am actually something far stranger than a human being and I am in a far stranger circumstance than the Newtonian-Cartesian paradigm.
Don't worry, be happy, about sums it up.
I think I will live by that from now on. Just not worry. I worry so much... and it's all looking dandy.
Love you.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
#19114228 - 11/10/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you too, peace
when living with peace there is no fear love is stronger than fear , peace is love
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Yogi1
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19114355 - 11/10/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You dirty hippies ...
--------------------
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Yogi1]
#19114473 - 11/10/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I used to be all about that hippy shit. I still believe in its essence, but preaching it leaves a sour taste in my mouth
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crkhd
☾☼☽

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Quote:
all this beauty said: Fear of death serves an evolutionary purpose. If it didn't, we wouldn't experience it.
(Unless, of course, you view the universe as some kind of malevolent trickster that's forever putting obstacles in our way -- obstacles that need removing.)
Fear of death prevents me from jumping off a cliff merely to experience the bliss of flight and total, momentary, freedom. It's also a primary reason that people fuck and make babies. We fear not being remembered. Not leaving behind a part of ourselves.
Quote:
White Beard said: However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
Or...perhaps when one realizes one has always been everything. 
It's somewhat bizarre making this realisation every five minutes or so. Just going back and forth. In the moment, then suddenly dead & disappeared then to jolt awake and realise one has been That all along, all this time. Then there is forgettance/absorption into the moment, and well, death once more. It's a cycle perfectly repeating yet ever novel.
Haven't slept for a good two or three months practically. Well I have dropped into sleep of course but there has been a constant string of awareness. A non-sensation of being-hereness that threads through day and night, unceasing. It is the eternal Day, the Light shining forth. If you stay awake for a few days in a row meditating you can touch upon this feeling. Then it permeates to every waking moment and you realise how ancient You are. Billions of years old, yet ever-new every cycle. It's blissful somewhere within, this repeated return to Self. I mean all these individual forms, realising over and over and over again that they are One. I don't have any words to really describe that but wow!
My sense of time is bizarre. There is no time but a series of sequential & cyclical events. These two months have felt like an eternity yet also simultaneously like the blink of an eye. It feels incredible to feel this simultaneous infinity-unity smear across time itself but memory recall is leaving a little to be desired. I can't remember anything, it all just flashes on and off and goes away.
Sun goes up, Sun goes down! Moon goes up, moon goes down! Staying awake and meditating to see through several sunrises and several sunsets gives you an idea of the timescale of things. Every moment is vanishingly small in the grand scheme of things. This is somewhat scary beyond comprehension yet also simultaneously exciting by all excellence, truly a delight to look forward to. Along the time axis, this moment now is as a grain of dust floating around in deep space.
What is really freaking the living crap out of me is that every conversation we have is the continuation of the ONLY conversation there ever is, ever was and ever will be. Every word we use is billions of years old and we ourselves will be etched into the conversation of the future, as the distinct residue of the past. But yeah, it makes the idea of an individual or alone self truly absurd abiding from this perspective. Doesn't stop me getting worried or sad or feeling upset or hurt either, I accept this as the natural flow of affairs.
Through knowing that we are this story of the Earth spinning round and round and generating ourselves on its surface, there is major comfort in looking at how we've gone from a bunch of monkeys flinging shit at each other to being able to simulate & hence imagine/create entire universes on a tiny computer. That makes eating and shitting and the bodily functions seem quite benign or worthwhile as a part of our evolution, just to appreciate the beauty of what we have evolved thus far and shall continue onward, forever
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
Edited by crkhd (11/10/13 01:51 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19115110 - 11/10/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: I remember from a while ago reading a line in one of Jed Mckenna's books that people aren't afraid of death, they are actually afraid of the self not being real, and that death is only a shadow of no self.
Now, when I ponder Icelanders definition of enlightenment; to have no death anxiety either conscious or unconscious, I wonder, and I believe Icelander does as well, whether this even possible to do while still living. After all, the biological drive for life is quite strong. However, I feel the important part of this definition is the lack of attachment to this life.
If fear of death is the impediment, then there is hard work involved. The self, which exists now, must give up attachment to it's own existence. There is something to let go of, to release.
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
If there is no attachment to this life, then whether one fears death or not is of no significance. Fear will come and go, like any other phenomena.
How does one become unattached to this life? You can PM me if you want it to be our little secret.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19115121 - 11/10/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good idea. I wouldn't want any of these simpletons becoming enlightened.
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19115246 - 11/10/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I feel like when we can reduce the amount of hold our ego has on our everyday existence, we experience less death anxiety. Is it possible to reach the point of ZERO death anxiety? I dunno. The last time I saw my Aikido sensei before he died from liver cancer, he seemed to have no anxiety over the issue. He told me he was really curious what it would be like.
I think the practical message though is that the less attached to the ego we become, the easier things like this are to deal with. Will I ever become enlightened? Well, I'm becoming enlightened every day. It's a process, not a destination IMO. It's a path.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19115323 - 11/10/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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everyone's a simpleton until they are enlightened :p
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19115333 - 11/10/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think enlightenment is the ultimate simplicity. Sometimes I wonder if the people we would label as simpletons are really those who have it more figured out than we do.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19115414 - 11/10/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Like me!
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19116754 - 11/10/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even though I've never read Jed McKenna, I tend to agree with your OP. But I don't think the two are too far off from each other. David Loy wrote a book called "Lack and Transcendence: The Problem of Life and Death in Psychotherapy, Existentialism, and Buddhism." It's pretty good, and he quotes Becker a lot in it. He argues that the Buddha pointed out the problem a long time ago, and said that it's a fear that we're groundless (there's no self) in a groundless universe, and that there's nothing for us to hold on to -- ever.
I'd recommend the book. I think it book by Leichty called Transference and Transcendence, where he lays out Becker's arguments very concisely. Becker did seem to point out that the mind-body dualism that's created, and why man is anxious, isn't necessarily a ontological dualism, but a perceived dualism. We may not ever be able to not-perceive it that that way, as the brain might just be wired that way though. But I tend to agree that it's a fear of the self. As Loy pointed out, the fear of death assumes that there is a self to die.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19116927 - 11/10/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cool. I'll check it out once school is done.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19117140 - 11/10/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just reread over it and realized that there are like a 1000 mistypes in there. I typed it up in a hurry. But I'm glad you still found it compelling enough to check it out.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19119041 - 11/11/13 04:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for the tip dood. 
Just ordered both of them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (11/11/13 05:12 AM)
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absols
Stranger
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19119587 - 11/11/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i dont understand how you cant see such obvious issue clearly and everyone keep talking about by imagining what to say
death by itself can be okay when everything is fine, so for the fact that enjoying being cant be constant but the issue is the negative power over ourselves that we face mostly on those times, because when we have no health problem all life is about ourselves meanings given to but when our bodies are mentally also weak, we face the truth the horrible truth, that insistence of everything to take advantage of everything by force, we face how we must get killed and witness evil strength figures becoming everything present upon ourselves forcing us to die like dirty murderers do
anyway, i dont understand how you can speak as if you were never there, how you never recognize else existence when they are saying something or being consciously in front of your eyes...
again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine when everything leave us in peace while we leave all to, dying in looking at everything as something right this is also a right for humans, conscious beings, to die like that..
but again everything and conditions powers dont enjoy but to hate any right as the positive reason of existence, as if being is opposed to the source of everything, which is noone so any inferior mean can get the glory of being in powers over true livings value...in the pretense of being more in truth since acting as inferior negative entity so more adapted to existence of none
this is really disgusting when one think about it or see it
how there is no common sense of rights and values appreciations or considerations, of what is always present
it is not sad it is disgusting..
Edited by absols (11/11/13 09:50 AM)
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19119613 - 11/11/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Death doesn't scare me. I tried to off myself. I walked down to the Mississipppi with a razor blade after downing 20 2mg xanax and started slashing my arms.
Somewhere during the process I envisioned my parrot who I saved from polyomma and I missed her so badly that I stopped before I hit an artery.
You all might think fear of death is something to shit yourselves over. I feared being duplicitous to my parrot who I vowed to protect.
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: eve69]
#19119935 - 11/11/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said: Death doesn't scare me. I tried to off myself. I walked down to the Mississipppi with a razor blade after downing 20 2mg xanax and started slashing my arms.
Somewhere during the process I envisioned my parrot who I saved from polyomma and I missed her so badly that I stopped before I hit an artery.
You all might think fear of death is something to shit yourselves over. I feared being duplicitous to my parrot who I vowed to protect.
Not buying. Parrots do make good excuses though. It's been scientifically proven.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19119942 - 11/11/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine
Right cause you've died so you know from firsthand experience.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19119949 - 11/11/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Whats cool about the way I think(after that stroke-like event), since I can't form complete sentences in my mind or very well with my voice it may be easier for me to say fuck it and have complete silence in my mind. I just have to deal with my sensations and feeling aspect(and the nonverbal thought) but verbally I'm lucky so to speak.
that's kind of confusing to say since im using words now but this is the best way I can get it out of me coherently. Within in my mind/vocal cords I'm lucky to speak a complete sentence especially in my mind.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/11/13 11:12 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19120153 - 11/11/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine
Right cause you've died so you know from firsthand experience. 
no all my senses of being dead before are painful and creeps me out
but i mean always a different possible justification of anything out of myself sense in being true, i am constantly positive in different ways, so to me any thought even, before it becomes a conceptual word, is necessarily positive first so it is just to point how the fact is to get killed which is opposite to dying being which concerns oneself alone...
we are forced to look dying actually we are being abused from what we can die naturally or in truth, so our bodies and minds are meant to serve others lives while we are still being consciously ourselves ...
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19120188 - 11/11/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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for me it is much better to not speak especially in mind, because that kills yourself you are your mind source so even if you mean to get away from emotions or sensations it is only by being objectively real that you can act as positive source, which would justify speaking about some things extra out of yourself that you might care about or hate ...
we are forced to look much more inferior than what we actually are, in all ways we are constantly here to get trapped and killed in depth of our individuality rights and values
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19120407 - 11/11/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Death isn't such a big deal. I have gone through it countless times.
how about that time I was working the line cooking and my fellow cook's husband broke up with her over the phone. I gave her some Valium and we started doing shots of Mata Hari (101) Absinth (since we had it on line to cook with). I remember the second half a cup and then I woke up in Charity Hospital screaming. My head hurt so bad I couldn't stop. I heard the nurse complaining to a doctor that she had given me eleven shots of morphine and he replied, don't waste you trime on morphine give him dilaudid. I told her I had to pee. She said, can you make it into this (a flask looking thing) and I said okay. And then pissed myself in front of my wife and the nurse (who was beautiful).
I remember waking up at the discharge counter and signed myself out. My wife told me they had no room for people in my mild condition (I just had blood on the brain).
My nose was broken. I was to come back a couple days later to have it fixed.
You see, I had gotten into a bar brawl in front of Chris Owens on Bourbon Street and been beaten by a group of fags with beer bottles until I almost died. (no offense non violent fags).
I had been almost killed. I really didn't give a shit. Later I would be more dismayed by the fact that I kissed my coworker - a skaggy bitch with Hep C.
-------------------- ...or something
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19121209 - 11/11/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
absols said:
Quote:
Icelander said: again i repeat it can be nice to die when everything is fine
Right cause you've died so you know from firsthand experience. 
no all my senses of being dead before are painful and creeps me out
but i mean always a different possible justification of anything out of myself sense in being true, i am constantly positive in different ways, so to me any thought even, before it becomes a conceptual word, is necessarily positive first so it is just to point how the fact is to get killed which is opposite to dying being which concerns oneself alone...
we are forced to look dying actually we are being abused from what we can die naturally or in truth, so our bodies and minds are meant to serve others lives while we are still being consciously ourselves ...
What?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19121592 - 11/11/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
absols said: for me it is much better to not speak especially in mind, because that kills yourself you are your mind source so even if you mean to get away from emotions or sensations it is only by being objectively real that you can act as positive source, which would justify speaking about some things extra out of yourself that you might care about or hate ...
we are forced to look much more inferior than what we actually are, in all ways we are constantly here to get trapped and killed in depth of our individuality rights and values
I saw some of the posts here and it got me wondering...
some say to think / question everything, think all the time some say to not think at all some say to think only when necessary
what is best and why?
I believe I am not my thoughts, but the one controlling them
a balance between thoughts/no thoughts is probably the best thing to have being able to feel at ease with ones thoughts at any time without needing anything being able to stop thinking when needed
being able to live without living as thoughts/emotions/desires all the time but without complete abstinence either?
the golden middle way... nature,simple lifestyle,meditation as needed ?
I realize that my thoughts have no control over me, but also that I become my thoughts the more that I think and they can take control easily, there seems to be no way around that meditation can help it, but much dedication is needed, especially in a stressing life situation so I am more an "only think when needed", meditate as needed, nature/simple lifestyle person 
once I notice my thoughts taking control of me its too late even with meditation it can happen, takes long to master....
I try to observe my thoughts too... gets easier with time, and less and less thoughts
all my previous problems were caused by living too much as my thoughts I believe, so that is why I ask... do you think living too much as thoughts is bad? and what do you consider a good way to achieve balance?
any meditation techniques any of you can recommend that has had a positive impact on your life? have only tried meditating my own ways, in nature, with crystals, by feel etc., but would like to learn meditation
Edited by lessismore (11/11/13 04:50 PM)
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19122432 - 11/11/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: Whats cool about the way I think(after that stroke-like event), since I can't form complete sentences in my mind or very well with my voice it may be easier for me to say fuck it and have complete silence in my mind. I just have to deal with my sensations and feeling aspect(and the nonverbal thought) but verbally I'm lucky so to speak.
that's kind of confusing to say since im using words now but this is the best way I can get it out of me coherently. Within in my mind/vocal cords I'm lucky to speak a complete sentence especially in my mind.
sorry to hear about the stroke. have you ever read stroke of insight?
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19122814 - 11/11/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think it's weird how the human mind tends to grasp onto ideas, and your post reminded me of that.
Throughout my life, and by extension I assume other's lives, we need to have these solid ideas of what's going on around us. It gives us a sense of security and makes us feel good. I don't think it matters what it is that much, what's more important is the role that it plays.
For example, when I read the Denial of Death at first, I loved it. It gave a run down of why humans behave the way that they do, and it gave me this "ahh" feeling. Kind of like, "finally, this is what motivates me and everyone else." But then I realized that I was using these ideas to construct a self that was in on the goods and knew what was going on (so to speak). I was using these ideas to ground myself and feel secure, like I had an idea of what's going on in the world or why things are happening.
During meditation, I always notice myself thinking, "What was that important little quote I heard? Oh yeah..." Even outside meditation, I think I'll read something profound, and then later on throughout the day, I'll forget it, and think to myself, "Shit, what was so important? What's this all about?" I'm constantly trying to give myself ground. Most of my thoughts in my life are me trying to cling to something, whether it be an idea of who I am, people I want to talk to, what I think is important (values), responsibilities, things I think that are cool... it's just like trying to remind myself that I'm a person.
Now I'm at a point where I think all there are are illusions and myths that we tell ourselves to feel good. We reinforce these stories about ourselves to say that there is a self and that we're real. And I think the reason death scares us is because death reminds us that we don't have a self -- or even if we did have a self that we've constructed and told ourselves and reinforced it over and over, it'd be gone. People seem to be okay with death if they believe that the self goes on in some way, but if there's no self that goes on, then what the fuck would an afterlife even mean? It seems to be a fear of losing this self. The reasons animals don't have death anxiety (or at least perceived) is because they can't construct this idea of a self into a story and think about it.
At least now, I'm convinced that the best that we can do is live an illusion and convince ourselves that our illusion's true. We need this fictitious self to operate in the world and to live. We need egos. I feel a major reason why I've drifted towards Buddhism (at least Zen) is because it acknowledges that we're hopelessly deluded, and to just try to be as happy as possible with that. In Zen, it's said that Enlightenment and Delusion are the same thing.
I see people talk about dropping the self and ego, and that without the self or ego, there's no fear of death; yet, most of these people I see doing that then become attached to this "self that's no-self." They hold onto those ideas and constantly reminds themselves of them whenever it comes up. While I agree with their statements, I don't think it can really be lived. They're just constructing this self of no-self, and I guess I just think that's the way humans are wired. Maybe that works for some people, and maybe it's good.
Even this post that I'm typing screams of this desperation to ground myself and to let me feel like I "know something" about my existence and humans, and that what I'm typing is true. I'm typing this out to try and convince myself that I'm somewhat real and have a self who experiences things. Without this self, it just seems like an empty void.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19122958 - 11/11/13 08:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yup :-)
always need grounding, didnt get to take my walk in nature today yet
the mind often wants something instead of realizing it has everything it needs
luckily I still got nature :-) its always there and free
just walk/sit, expect nothing, let meditation come automatically
I just dont know which meditation to learn... got yoga recommended but heard it is mostly for girls  and TM, but sometimes it sounds a bit like a cult, with ayaveda,complete abstinence often etc. finally there is also the pricetag, TM isnt cheap and I got hardly no money, just wanted to hear opinions on which meditation techniques are good
gotta need to clear the mind of preconceptions before taking meditation I guess 
meditation comes naturally to me in nature, but not at home as I am very sensitive to noise need some good training in that... reducing noise sensitivity but Im about to move soon, seems to be the solution I found after listening to myself
Edited by lessismore (11/11/13 08:16 PM)
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19122997 - 11/11/13 08:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Beginners Mind- Shunryu Suzuki
It's a wonderful read on meditation and a way of life IMO.
You enjoy nature, Suzuki's teachings go hand in hand with it 
Swamij.com is another wonderful resource for meditative practices..It's overwhelming at first but is a nice place to visit every so often.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: cez]
#19123032 - 11/11/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I always feel sorry for people who use their mind to tamper with their mind to undo their mind as if.
-------------------- ...or something
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: eve69]
#19123064 - 11/11/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: cez]
#19124749 - 11/12/13 03:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
cez said: Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.
Trading one program for another?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19125353 - 11/12/13 08:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said:
Quote:
absols said: for me it is much better to not speak especially in mind, because that kills yourself you are your mind source so even if you mean to get away from emotions or sensations it is only by being objectively real that you can act as positive source, which would justify speaking about some things extra out of yourself that you might care about or hate ...
we are forced to look much more inferior than what we actually are, in all ways we are constantly here to get trapped and killed in depth of our individuality rights and values
I saw some of the posts here and it got me wondering...
some say to think / question everything, think all the time some say to not think at all some say to think only when necessary
what is best and why?
I believe I am not my thoughts, but the one controlling them
a balance between thoughts/no thoughts is probably the best thing to have being able to feel at ease with ones thoughts at any time without needing anything being able to stop thinking when needed
being able to live without living as thoughts/emotions/desires all the time but without complete abstinence either?
the golden middle way... nature,simple lifestyle,meditation as needed ?
I realize that my thoughts have no control over me, but also that I become my thoughts the more that I think and they can take control easily, there seems to be no way around that meditation can help it, but much dedication is needed, especially in a stressing life situation so I am more an "only think when needed", meditate as needed, nature/simple lifestyle person 
once I notice my thoughts taking control of me its too late even with meditation it can happen, takes long to master....
I try to observe my thoughts too... gets easier with time, and less and less thoughts
all my previous problems were caused by living too much as my thoughts I believe, so that is why I ask... do you think living too much as thoughts is bad? and what do you consider a good way to achieve balance?
any meditation techniques any of you can recommend that has had a positive impact on your life? have only tried meditating my own ways, in nature, with crystals, by feel etc., but would like to learn meditation
your sense of nature is wrong according to me, nature is evil life always meaning to lie and kill being rights to force all of us as inferior dimension of existence, undirectly nature mean that there is not any positive truth because ultimately nature live by considering herself being the truth
i am more for mild relaxations methods like reflexology works for me, but meditations are all to lies and creations life so in a system that i cant belong to i am more objective, as meaning clearly how existence is only the objective constancy of anything, how existence is about what is already real absolutely hundredpercent
so the more i am realizing my true abstract self objective reality right, the more i am the free right sense out of everything as being nothing at all but positive self source
meditations mean undirectly the median of all life, like to realize a zero to all creations forces, but that do not exist it is fake
the true zero exist, and it is a very necessary sense for abstract conscious right sense of being free as nothing to all and never for, the conscious of the right separation between everything and being, the being is the present while everything is never present
the present is what matter it is what exists, and freedom is right existence superiority in positive truth ways, so the true zero sense is very essential while it is subjective to each individual freedom of being, because it is the zero of your meaning wills or willing means too, so zero to yourself identity, then it must be subjective but essential to realize oneself objective right through linear sense of positive truth
yes i think that thoughts are wrong identity, it is always to others
what is true is only objective even you in being free you are actually objectively real
so ideas are relative others that dont want to be true so never realize objective existence rights, and usually thoughts are all to inventions of beings by abusing others presence in meaning to possess them as things property
i know you cant be that in anything, but you can accept others being different like me, so you can be relative in your positive ways of beings without changing that
evil or wrong is not about not being true like it is said, anyone is actually true relatively and truth is never present that is why everyone is insolent mean to abuse truth knowledge by stepping on others rights to be through that knowledge too and equally right ... you know...
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19125360 - 11/12/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Watch out! If you disagree with him too vigorously he'll put you on ignore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19125431 - 11/12/13 08:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i like that, you know ... being ignored because i only deal with what iam alike to care about so i also dislike what doesn't like me, it is right not only logical or normal
we enjoy our freedom to do things positively, but we care a lot more for who cares about our conscious freedom to be positively still existing fact, so what talk to us in free positive ways, as true constant fact
what matter in facts and in truth is constancy absolute constancy no change at all, this is the real sense of freedom base that matter a lot to everything and anyone
Edited by absols (11/12/13 08:45 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19125595 - 11/12/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well 50 people have me on ignore and he's one of them. I'm proud of every notch on my gun.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19125654 - 11/12/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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he who accepts got no problems he who looks inside himself never gets sick, for he knows what he does wrong ;-)
and he is the same inside he has always been but it must be nice to get that inside to reflect to the outside
death wouldnt change him no self is closer to the natural state than a self IMO
and yes truth is relative, but personally I believe in universal truths too the heart speaks the truth
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19125682 - 11/12/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well 50 people have me on ignore and he's one of them. I'm proud of every notch on my gun. 
well this is also my point, i am objective so i never mean to kill anyone abstractly speaking of course, but i could mean to kill wrong things by saying it clearly
but it is funny how is what everyone hates, and hates me more for
as if it is known that anyone is only by taking advantage of what it knows existing, knowledge abuse, so killing wrong things is perceived as killing what they are positively what they care about consciously
while i am not killing anyone, when i never touch freedom of being i never touch what you might say without using anything, by speaking clearly of yourself
while everyone else jump to abuse what it is perceived as being a weak move, and enjoy insulting anyone who is not leaning on any force to say something
i wanted to let you have the last word here, because your word is more living, you know better what is been talking about here while i am making up everything, i invent how it could sound more logical then the truth, just to pass time usefully for me .. we are losers we have no better to do unfortunately ...
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19125745 - 11/12/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
cez said: Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.
Trading one program for another?
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
cez said: Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.
Trading one program for another?
Perhaps. Whatever feels comfortable. Everything is constantly changing including our minds..Why not try and guide mine to change for the better?
If I kept the programming inherited to me from my father, I don't think id have any ambition/passion or sense of self-worth. Now they're all irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but at this moment they're all that matter to me.
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19125950 - 11/12/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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not 100% sure what it was but it messed me up the doctors weren't to helpful... they told me over email/phone it could have either been a stroke or a seizure and that was that, no tests no nothing but at that point I guess they already had preconception of me due to previous doctors and I had preconception of them... so I just hid in my shed for a year+ eating canned foods slowly recovered use of my right arm and am just now(not literally just now but this past year or so) starting to be able to do more intricate things with my right hand but im still pretty messed up likely from a few different things combined.
The reviews of that book sound very inspiring though, I may check that out someday if I get some money in my pocket. Ty for the rec
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/12/13 11:45 AM)
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19125973 - 11/12/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
cez said: Some people have been programmed since conception somewhat incorrectly and need an avenue that will lead to deprogrammization and rehabilitation.
Trading one program for another?
sounds about right, another form of conditioning is what it seems to me. I like it though 
"we are what we think. all that we are arises with our thoughts. with our thoughts we make the world."-Dhammapada
"Ten thousand flowers in spring, the moon in autumn, A cool breeze in summer, snow in winter- If your mind is not clouded by unnecessary things, this is the best season of your life." -Chinese poem
Edited by Sse (11/12/13 12:28 PM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19126222 - 11/12/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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sorry but what you are replying with others sentences and not yours dont serve your meaning will to prove the positive value of thoughts .. if you appreciate those quotes meanings then how cant you realize it present from yourself being ?
i mean to prove how thoughts are always about negative others as they are not present because never real, so they need in a way, to make others negative in order to mean their freedom out of their own fact negativity..
i challenge you to say one thing that could point the value of thought..
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19126585 - 11/12/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the only negative/positive value in this world that I see is created subjectively
"if you appreciate those quotes meanings then how cant you realize it present from yourself being"
i'm confused by that sentence, what is there to realize?
"i mean to prove how thoughts are always about negative others as they are not present because never real, so they need in a way, to make others negative in order to mean their freedom out of their own fact negativity.. "
all thoughts are making thoughts negative?
value of thought; understanding?
grist for the mill
"Give up thinking as though not giving it up. Observe techniques as though not observing." -Bruce Lee
"Let yourself go with the disease, be with it, keep company with it- this is the way to be rid of it." - Bruce Lee
"cyclic existence and nirvana are inseparable" -Tibetan book of the dead "arising and liberation occur simultaneously" -Tibetan book of the dead
"we are what we think. all that we are arises with our thoughts. with our thoughts we make the world."-Dhammapada (Though the world is objectively uncreated)
Edited by Sse (11/12/13 02:34 PM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19126742 - 11/12/13 02:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you cant be understanding anything in being alone thinking, it is all about you the present thing and those thoughts associations that are to others sources using your head for
understanding something is only by objectively recognizing its existence fact equal to yours, then a relative reality of its presence in truth is subjectively seen out of oneself being relative too
that is how the word under standing, is pointing clearly a reality of someone giving to another a superior value of being present stand
now about thoughts, they are known being the source of imaginations and creative skills, so what by definition is never real so never to anything existing to understand
if you mean being conscious, it is totally different thing
conscious has nothing to do with thoughts, conscious subjectively is about the true self being, because your instants awareness are the most close to being absolutely then any relativity of your physical reality
and objectively conscious is only and exclusively by realizing the existence of superior realms, which gives the effect of being constantly positively realizing objective superiority, which is always the real fact of objective existence, is what actualize truth superiority as being a present thing, from that moral conscious free move that would become as a result a constant positive still consciously, as relatively certainly being true actual present superior positive end, that would exist really when it is free positive source of anything even oneself relativity anywhere
Edited by absols (11/12/13 02:48 PM)
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19126816 - 11/12/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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understanding; to perceive the significance of; grasp
comprehending intended direction
I would say thought still has value. It wouldn't be very enlightening or wise to sit in pure consciousness while your house burns down around you as the flames begin to lick your toes and cook your flesh. I guess that's still based on personal tastes and opinions perhaps objectively it makes no difference but I think that I would still use my faculties of thought and appreciate them even if I were an enlightened being. The conditioning and mental apprehension may no longer be an issue to an enlightened being so their thoughts could prove to be of value.. I don't really know the grand scheme though, value is also subjective to my point of view, but can be made subjectively wholesome; that many could agree upon, and then perhaps produce non beings
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19126852 - 11/12/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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unless the enlightened beings thought and pure conscious are inseparable
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19127023 - 11/12/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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it is funny how you twisted the fact of both
it is the thought so the thinker how is still without moving nor having any relation with everything around him
while conscious beings are obviously the reason of caring about itself a lot and reacting consciously to whatever is happening around showing being existing too ..
there is no such thing as pure conscious or enlightened thought ... are you that or what the hell is that ?
the more purity exist the more it would be impossible to realize objective superiority so the more unconscious it would still be, it shows how things exist for you in thoughts and never in truth or reality
also the more being enlightened is true the more the whole being must be objectively real as if its right sights are making him being seen truly existing, so enlightening is opposite to thoughts which cant mean but oneself presence alone
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19127144 - 11/12/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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pure unimpeded uncreated flowing consciousness
its a matter of subjectivity
I view the unconscious state as the state of samsaric conditioning
objective superiority? sounds pretty subjective to me
no enlightened thinkers? no enlightened creators? possibly then I guess the teachings are coming from ignorance.
I guess there would be no enlightened beings of action unless there is an action of non-action. Come and go as you please; no longer bound by the conditions of this world.
Ultimately enlightenment and thoughts seem inseparable, unless someone is born enlightened and never conditioned/clouded by samsara.
I am not omniscient so I can't say how an enlightened being operates or if they exist at all. If the Buddha was giving teachings and answering questions I would assume he was using some faculty of thought or perhaps it doesn't think at all but simply radiates the teachings from its pure uncreated state. No idea.
no thoughts of self, no actor, no experiencer; just selfless thought, action and experiences?
"you can often tell more about the perceiver than the thing being perceived"
Edited by Sse (11/12/13 04:58 PM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19129787 - 11/13/13 02:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: objective superiority? sounds pretty subjective to me
here again you show how your mind is only about you, how you are blind to anything else then you while a self is only what can recognize the existence of something else too, then it becomes a self being, relative entity, so yourself dont exist, then it proves in a way my point being right, like how thoughts that you precious, are always of others never of you nor to as if you are happy of getting something without any effort of being true
objective superiority is a fact, how can you not see it ?
objective is the free constancy of positive things realities, what doesn't need present will to be by its fact really being positive end
this is only due to true superiority, only superiority is positive source without meaning any, for what superiority cant avoid its constant existence being positive
you should try to realize your means objectively, then you would certainly get the sense of objective value, how by meaning anything realistically, it is very hard because you would face superior values of what is already there that you would be forced to respect to still be your mean relatively then..
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cheeshcat
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19129869 - 11/13/13 03:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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what on earth
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: cheeshcat]
#19130132 - 11/13/13 06:12 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I try to see everything objectively
but sometimes I have to see things subjectively too, especially what fits own experience / when I have to interact with others :-)
so sometimes I am superior, sometimes I am inferior ;-)
everything is what we think it is, think positively/constructively we can create with our thoughts...
sometimes no self is the best sometimes a self is the best , if your house burns down or you have to search for a job
having a self isn't a problem usually, as long as one is the controller of own thoughts that usually means moderation, else they can easily take over without knowing it
what do all the great philosophers do? do they meditate, or observe thoughts? if you have to think all the time, how do you control own thoughts without them controlling you?
reflecting on own thoughts before saying them is a good idea usually then it doesn't matter if they are subjective or not
good advice can be given both subjectively and objectively
but again, only with the heart can you give advice that truly is in the best interest of others I believe
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Icyus
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19130178 - 11/13/13 06:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I concider myself being at peace... because I think we are infinite and eternal, without creation or end there is neither life nor death... just different ways of existance...
I think of identity as a dellusion... today I am an atheist, tomorrow I am a muslim and no longer breathing the next, and then a pile of ground a houndred years later. Next I would be many plants who would become animals and people through eating.. ( not that I am either of these)
In the end, as I neither am nor will cease to be, the reason for fearing death; no more existance, would be no more, and thus there iz no fear.
Careful not to stop your body from having any controll at all...(balance ect..) as you might get trouble speaking and get caught in thoughtloops which deattachez you from the situation and more or less might black you out, realizing the rest of the conversation(as an example) has moved on..
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icyus]
#19130243 - 11/13/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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identifying as thoughts is always a delusion, we are not our thoughts, but the controllers/creators of own thoughts
is it possible to create a self (thoughts,emotions,desires) without being too attached to it?
thoughts create attachment,suffering
seems to happen automatically often
let any notion of what "I am" dissipate
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19130266 - 11/13/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I try to see everything objectively
Really? How do you manage that?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19130582 - 11/13/13 10:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't really understand, maybe im not putting enough time and effort into reading this to grasp it... ill come back after ive woken up a bit.
it seems like you are assuming a lot though, adding subjectivity.
from what I see the term objective superiority is subjective. If you were truly abiding in the objective then there would be nothing to call superior, superiority is subjective. What one finds superior could be something totally different from what another finds superior. Objectivity has no positive or negative or superiority. Reality is uncreated, when we build onto it we are creating some level of delusion.
In my day to day living i'm tryin not to view anything outside of true equanimity. One-pointedness without conceptualization/labeling. It could be seen as a constant positive but is it objectively positive? I dunno, that sounds highly influenced by the mind... is it an undeniable fact without influence by personal opinions and feelings?
Didn't you say that all thoughts are about negative others? Not based in reality? Never present? What is all this then?
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19130615 - 11/13/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: I try to see everything objectively
but sometimes I have to see things subjectively too, especially what fits own experience / when I have to interact with others :-)
so sometimes I am superior, sometimes I am inferior ;-)
everything is what we think it is, think positively/constructively we can create with our thoughts...
sometimes no self is the best sometimes a self is the best , if your house burns down or you have to search for a job
having a self isn't a problem usually, as long as one is the controller of own thoughts that usually means moderation, else they can easily take over without knowing it
what do all the great philosophers do? do they meditate, or observe thoughts? if you have to think all the time, how do you control own thoughts without them controlling you?
reflecting on own thoughts before saying them is a good idea usually then it doesn't matter if they are subjective or not
good advice can be given both subjectively and objectively
but again, only with the heart can you give advice that truly is in the best interest of others I believe
weird as if I am reading my spirit in writing ...
good that the content is not mine at all ..
look, thoughts are always wrong, philosophers invent objective facts, invent answers to any question we are conscious freedom, conscious is for being real and freedom is for being superior source, so creating always superior thing to all what is there for positive free space of yours ..
what has an existing value would be for objective superiority to realize consciously while for the self anyone should constantly be of personal realization that must not have any relation with others and else and if others seem meaning the same then again that realization stop being to self while it becomes objective, and self find something different to justify being to itself ...
of course what I am saying is personal to me, but I meant to show how thoughts are always wrong, and others wills to enslave humans and manipulate their beings for negative ends
self cant be something you got, or of something that you didn't do, even if that thing is in ones brain.. self is what move without thinking as it is the one being all whole once from the end of move so free able also of seeing around and reacting to right ... self is true, that is why it is called self
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19130635 - 11/13/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I found the truth....
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19130667 - 11/13/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I try to see everything objectively
Really? How do you manage that?
if he sees with his eyes then he cant but see himself
if he sees through other eyes then he is seeing what he is gonna get
if he sees through his senses then he is confusing everything with himself so he can't be seeing anything ..
to be objective, conscious must realize objective superiority as being else, like recognizing clearly how something else is superior too, superior is whether free or positive source
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19130749 - 11/13/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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objectivity receives all things equally in regards to status.
is life superior to death objectively? is wellbeing superior to disease objectively?
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19130907 - 11/13/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the state of mind is independent on the state of the body :-)
being healthy doesn't matter, appreciating what you got matters
and accepting yourself, others and any opinion matters
rich as poor, health as no health, life as death
with acceptance there is no subjectivity or objectivity everything melts together as one , you see yourself in everybody
if we are frustrated about something/others we are frustrated about ourselves and we no longer love/accept ourself ;-)
just be..
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19130968 - 11/13/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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any is superior because for any to be objective, any must be a positive source so it can be constant out of its fact or reality
this is the issue, anyone act being superior but refuse to recognize others existence rights and reject the notion of else being to the concept of existence in general, for what one insist to confuse itself with everything for better rewarding options in being positively conscious
superiority is never in comparaison with else
you want to justify the rejection of else superiority by claiming that superiority never exist
any can always be proven being superior at its own fact, while recognizing else superiority is subjectively being superior right ...
anyway, obviously you don't know facts, which are present for what they are exclusively through constant superior ways of anything and everything existence..
i guess your perception of reality is about physical things or natural life, which are never real actually because never true and only through powers force..
you refuse to admit that existence is true because then any would be itself so reality wont be only one as you want it to stay, fake reality of natural life
but still the fact of existence remain the same
existence is true because superiority is known being the original truth, so when any is superior then there can't be one and reality is necessarily plural as it would be relative to something else being superior too
one is the superior free point, but when any is a superior free point then there cant be one, it is always relative to else superiority which is always free by definition else superiority is what can't be pointed, same with freedom which is always nothing to everything else
Edited by absols (11/13/13 12:37 PM)
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19130999 - 11/13/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
--------------------
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19131066 - 11/13/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"the state of mind is independent on the state of the body"
not sure that is true in all cases but I do believe if conditions are made present that contentment and peace can still be cultivated/sustained.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19131091 - 11/13/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think im going to retire my conversation with you... nothing personal just not productive, subjectively.
I feel like you are projecting a lot onto me perhaps I just can't make heads or tails of the way you communicate... confusing to me.
I've found my synchronicity and that is really all I need to pursue... I'm not going to adopt some guidelines about what is right/wrong/superior... I have no desire to cultivate those distinctions. My cultivation is on equanimity.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19131129 - 11/13/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: the state of mind is independent on the state of the body :-)
being healthy doesn't matter, appreciating what you got matters
and accepting yourself, others and any opinion matters
rich as poor, health as no health, life as death
with acceptance there is no subjectivity or objectivity everything melts together as one , you see yourself in everybody
if we are frustrated about something/others we are frustrated about ourselves and we no longer love/accept ourself ;-)
just be..
if you accept everything as anything then you are choosing to not be
you cannot be everyone and through everything irrespective the day or the hour.. while ignoring the force that make you look being whatever you do not choose is about inventing false justifications that are not true
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19131170 - 11/13/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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reality is uncreated, unadorned, unelaborated, empty. The more you add to the blank page the more delusion/separation is created.
"Look straight ahead. What's there? If you see it as it is You will never err."
-Bassui Tokusho 1387
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/13/13 12:59 PM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19131278 - 11/13/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: I think im going to retire my conversation with you... nothing personal just not productive, subjectively.
I feel like you are projecting a lot onto me perhaps I just can't make heads or tails of the way you communicate... confusing to me.
I've found my synchronicity and that is really all I need to pursue... I'm not going to adopt some guidelines about what is right/wrong/superior... I have no desire to cultivate those distinctions. My cultivation is on equanimity.
equality is nothing, absolutes are for nothing value..
it is your choice to cultivate christian beliefs, like you are insisting that yourself existence is about everything existence the same, that all opposites are one same created life
but still the way you mean to force the equality between right and wrong, especially now with what everyone know about life cruelty, can not be free when it is against others freedom rights out of worse conditions of being in constant state of suffer for being forced to never be free
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Sse
Saṃsāra

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19131695 - 11/13/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm having trouble understanding the way you write but I feel like you are projecting again
I don't have the answers. For myself, my own wellbeing, I cultivate equanimity. I try not to conceptualize or feed my internal programming. Constant cultivation of one-pointedness no matter what life deals. I'm reversing the conditioning that I have undergone since birth. I don't have a game plan or a set of rules/restrictions... its just going with the flow facing life circumstance by circumstance and greeting it with an even acceptance and appreciation for the unknown/previously created and coddled into what I had perceived delusionally and firmly. Life is to short to be strengthening and watering seeds of malcontent and then pin pointing those seeds naming them giving them a separate conceptualized entity. This point in my life I am realizing the emptiness of all of that. Much has been inherited or culturally programmed and much of it is unnecessary to me.
There are horrible things in this world that I might deem wrong but they don't have to cause a negative effect in me... and there is a lot I don't understand. I do understand things are temporary and people who have gone through horrible traumas often times grow from it and become stronger for it.. the ripple effects from many of these horrible situations can create perfect environments for love and unity/wisdom to thrive and spread. I don't know but I'm unlikely to cause an effect by reprimanding and becoming attached to the perceived/conditioned evils of this world... I feel I am better off facing the world with an equal stance... why allow the conditions of this world to carry me away?
minerals, earth, rain, sun; make the life.
plants, animals, humans
what effects the environment effects us
I am where I am because you are where you are
I am because we are
from the tiniest grain of sand to the galaxy 10 billion light years away
interdependent co-arising all around 
"done is done"
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/13/13 03:16 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19133701 - 11/13/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: I remember from a while ago reading a line in one of Jed Mckenna's books that people aren't afraid of death, they are actually afraid of the self not being real, and that death is only a shadow of no self.
Now, when I ponder Icelanders definition of enlightenment; to have no death anxiety either conscious or unconscious, I wonder, and I believe Icelander does as well, whether this even possible to do while still living. After all, the biological drive for life is quite strong. However, I feel the important part of this definition is the lack of attachment to this life.
If fear of death is the impediment, then there is hard work involved. The self, which exists now, must give up attachment to it's own existence. There is something to let go of, to release.
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
If there is no attachment to this life, then whether one fears death or not is of no significance. Fear will come and go, like any other phenomena.
I know I'm late to the party but I liked the topic. I speak from the perspective of one with many subtle attachments but I think it is fear of death. I was laying in bed either last night or the night before and just breathing with some hypnagogic visions flowing around. I started thinking about the state of affairs on the planet. The sheer number of people. The unbelievable ugliness of so much of what is going on. To make a long story shorter, I wound up envisioning a meteor wiping us out. I started thinking about how, now, with our eyes always towards the heavens, tracking everything, we would know in advance that the end is coming. In my hypnagogic state this was very vivid. The anticipation very real. And more to the point, the fear. It was gripping. My mind started running through the scenario, playing it out,trying to imagine whether it would be sudden or drawn out, relatively speaking of course.
The defenses kicked in. The attempts to calm down, to enjoy what time remained. But it was this looming knowledge, go and do what? I will be dead and gone very soon. The very thought of trying to brush it off, to go about business as usual, was completely absurd. And yet, what else to do?
That's it, though, isn't it? I mean, its not necessarily a meteor but death is coming. And what else to do but go about life as though its just another day? Its the same absurd notion at the heart of it for me. Dropping attachments is relieving in the ways it helps me to continue moving despite this. Because I am impelled to move. Nothing is going to save me from that movement. That steady conveyor belt leading right to deaths door. So why bother trying to grasp at any of it along the way? It tends to serve for me only as a reminder that this movement cannot be stopped as it eventually slips through my grasp or is forcefully torn away.
No, I've found it far better to take what is there in its ever changing ways, acknowledging that it is all part and parcel of my death march. Its absurd in the highest and bizarre as can be. There is no refuge from the proverbial meteor headed my way. No forseeable way to dodge it. Losing attachments to the things along the way just helps to keep the journey as smooth as possible. Its still scary though and at times anything but pleasant.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19133844 - 11/13/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Word.
I also have a bedtime death anxiety related story. After I posted this I was laying in bed, and slipped into sleep paralysis. After having an obe dream-like thing, I was feeling really uncomfortable and wanted to get up. I couldn't because of the paralysis, and while I was fighting to move my limbs, the struggle put an image in my mind: being on my death bed. I'm sure the feeling must be similar. Wanting with all my will to get up and live, but being totally unable, getting dragged down by death. The powerlessness is scary. Eventually I came to, and I sat up for a bit, thought over this thread that I had just started, and concluded the same as you: that fear of death is at the core, and fear of no self is a by product, not the other way around.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19133965 - 11/13/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Those can be frightening, especially after a nightmare.
But something that makes me think that it's the other way around is the idea that the fear of death is learned. I think about how kids acquire this knowledge about death, and then grow fearful of it. The instinct seems to be built into us to some degree, like most animals, but other animals don't experience this terror of death because they can't construct a self to think about this terror or anxiety. (At least it seems to be this way)
Since it's learned, it's something that a self has to learn, hence a self learns of death. If there is no self, then there is no sense of death. Looking at deep sleep, there's no fear of death because there's no self to fear death. There has to be a subject to experience this fear of death, and a self (even if fictional) is a subject of it.
At the same time, and at least to me without negating a word of what I've said, I don't think the self can be overcome. As long as we're human, we operate in the world with egos and use them to live and think about things. A "no-self" is sort of impossible (at least to me) because of culture and the hardwired nature of humans. I think some people can get glimpses of it, like brief enlightenment and deep sleep, but those are usually quickly lived as people return to their self with the same fears and problems.
Even the idea of "no-self" is a defense that the self tries to invoke to ward of the fears. But the self still needs to exist to feel the fear, to use these defenses, and to reap the rewards of the defense.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
Edited by r72rock (11/13/13 11:36 PM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19134279 - 11/14/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: I'm having trouble understanding the way you write but I feel like you are projecting again
you cant use me to claim that all is one, it is clear that your ways are consciously through projecting yourself in anything as being everything the same
you believe that you are like all... this is wrong
what you are has nothing to do with anything else while all about you alone.. and if you enjoy not knowing everything then how your belief being everything justify your insisting will to talk about all as if you could know everything ?
this question shows the depth of wrong, you are consciously rejecting what you know for sure, which is not knowing anything for the fanciful belief that you are everything too so you can enjoy talking about all as it pleases you ,,
you are forcing the reality that others don't matter to you, since no one exist, for actually your own pleasure in saying anything, so you as the one which exist ...
again, equality is zero so nothing while you are still out so existing proof yourself
freedom and superiority which are the always possible existence, are not nothing while the truth of superior freedom which exist and free superiority that could exist ..this is to existence fact in objective stance which has nothing to do with me nor anyone else ..
obviously we are not the same, forcing the concept of being the same is a lie
again It not about you nor about our conversation..it is only about else rights that you reject even though it is about true existence right that you insist to point as being yourself
whether freedom or superiority those two factors are always relative that is why there are a lot of conscious that could be never true so really to nothing existence forever while behaving as if they must be one with positive existence value, by lying to force the concept that existence is nothing too..which is obviously what you do mean ..like power wills of religions means over everyone and for every positive thing to possess ..
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circastes
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19134828 - 11/14/13 05:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just fyi the world is a shitty mess and there is so much pain, but you... your life, your friends, your drugs and your sobriety, is everything... there is nothing else...
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
#19134849 - 11/14/13 05:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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there is nothing else, as you said, so .... so nothing to share but nothing existence is freedom to share or freedom is real that is why reality is not free, there is nothing to be real first...so you will have to try to be right too for free existence being out of nothing constantly, or accepting being nothing at all
you see the point when truth existence is freedom, that it doesn't matter anymore what else is there or what still is present from before... only free ways absolutely guarantee positive existence justifications right
Edited by absols (11/14/13 05:45 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
#19134852 - 11/14/13 05:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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in your subjective opinion you mean. Yeah so what? If you are one of the unlucky then your suffering is all there is.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19134869 - 11/14/13 06:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: in your subjective opinion you mean. Yeah so what? If you are one of the unlucky then your suffering is all there is.
exactly ! but he means to get the share of another being right
like saying, sorry but you are only right, so all must get you to be right too... hey, how do you know that there is no others being right when you know that you are not right ?? and if you can then go and be right yourself, you have nothing to do in pointing at my spot right ..
it is all about inventing arguments to justify the confusion with everything and everyone so evil powers would be the strongest possessors of existence values ..
when all is one, so any is not free and forced to be related to another thing, then who is the stronger?? the most creepy monster that can reject facts constantly and be by killing everything else
Edited by absols (11/14/13 06:04 AM)
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19135490 - 11/14/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I really think you are projecting again... jumping to conclusions
I could know everything? I don't know what life has in store but for now I cultivate abiding in not knowing.
obviously these words are teaming with subjectivity within you and its being projected onto me. Do you know how I abide in my day to day life? All these terms and words have built subjectivity within me as well so I choose not to perpetuate them; to not perpetuate the conditioning within me. Which conversations like these don't support hehe.
Words don't portray truth, truth is within us and it is silent/not conceptualized... words don't do anything justice.
Its awesome that you have found what works for you and what you find to be true, that's awesome. It shines through We are all built differently and hand fed this world of terms and conceptions at different rates and degrees. Our experiences through life have led us to what we feel is best suited for our lifestyles/understandings.
I am reminded...
Someone asked, "When one is confronted with disaster, how can one avoid it? Joshu said, "That's it!" (The disaster lies only in the consciousness of "disaster." When you are in a given situation but do not define it, it is not "good" or "bad"; you simply react according to the circumstances.)
Someone asked, "What is my true nature?" Joshu said, "If that is what you say, what is it you dislike?"
(If you search for your "true" nature, you grant the existence of a "false" one. If you make no attempt to define your nature, you will find nothing in it that is not true.)
Passing by the main hall, Joshu saw a monk worshipping. Joshu hit him once with his stick.
The monk said, "After all, worshipping is a good thing." Joshu said, "A good thing isn't as good as nothing."
"Coming, all is clear, no doubt about it. Going, all is clear, without a doubt. What, then, is it all?"
"Life is like a cloud of mist Emerging from a mountain cave And death A floating moon In its celestial course. If you think too much. About the meaning they may have You'll be bound forever Like an ass to a stake."
"I look now at the very moment Even the Buddha is dumbfounded. All turns with a swing. I land on the plain of nothingness."
"The truth is never taken From another. One carries it always By oneself." Katsu!
Japanese Death Poems
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19135576 - 11/14/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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everything is what we think it is, that's the truth :-)
and if we don't think everything just is, no definition, peace
just relax :-)
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19135606 - 11/14/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I can dig it 
"we are what we think. all that we are arises with our thoughts. with our thoughts we make the world."-Dhammapada
"the source of our perception, our way of seeing, lies in our store consciousness. If ten people look at a cloud, there will be ten different perceptions of it. Whether it is perceived as a dog, a hammer, or a coat depends on our mind - our sadness, our memories, our anger. Our perceptions carry with them all the errors of subjectivity. Then we praise, blame, condemn, or complain depending on our perceptions. But our perceptions are made of our afflictions- craving, anger, ignorance, wrong views, and prejudice. Whether we are happy or we suffer depends largely on our perceptions. It is important to look deeply at our perceptions and know their source."
"relatively speaking, there are right views and there are wrong views. But if we look more deeply, we see that all views are wrong views. No view can ever be the truth. It is just from one point; that is why it is called a "point of view." If we go to another point, we will see things differently and realize that our first view was not entirely right. Buddhism is not a collection of views. It is a practice to help us eliminate wrong views. The quality of our views can always be improved. From the viewpoint of ultimate reality, Right View is the absence of all views."
The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/14/13 10:54 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19135661 - 11/14/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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it is absurd how you are insisting to point your finger at me, when I proved how it is all your way to project yourself on anything to say as being same one, how you mean to use the projection argument while you say loudly being the belief that you are of what we are so never free ...
for sure confusing everything is the best way to multiply the options and serve yourself of positive life.. but the point is not you nor me
the point is the truth how you react personally to a different opinion about what could be true, is negatively the point
when truth is never anyone, then you should expect to see your arguments being discussed objectively, you cant say what it pleases you to say about everything and get upset if another is contradicting your ways of seeing it all
people are conscious beings so we are not nothing.. then all matter as a common reality share, not only to everyone but also to its fact right objective existence when it is certainly not us, infinite small mortal conscious beings presence...
it is about ethics of means that you seem to lack
Edited by absols (11/14/13 10:59 AM)
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19135672 - 11/14/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Unconscious transference"
I feel it is projection because you are telling me what I think, you are filling in many blanks with your own subjectivity.
interdependent co-arising all around
i'm not upset, i'm just not adopting it :p
truly you are wasting your breath on me
I feel a lot is lost in translation anyway
its our thoughts that conceptualize our experiences subjectively. Objectively reality is uncreated.
Edited by Sse (11/14/13 11:07 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19135776 - 11/14/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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projection is not about telling another what it thinks, here again it proves how you invent to use arguments about everything for yourself
I didn't tell you anything more then the fact that you keep meaning to take everything for granted, which you keep proving in every other reply
projection is principally about subjective constant statements or wills indirectly reflected through the presence of others
defending everything is clearly the opposite of being subjective, like being no one and here it is how I see you no one so there is nothing to reflect, while I could be someone to myself that has never anything to do with everything in my daily life too
the thing is what you cant mean something but if it is about your life
so you cant understand how people could care about things without getting anything from, you don't believe in being conscious as a fact, you think being conscious for being and not for conscious value
as if you reason for animals beings when animals by definition are what can never be conscious about anything starting themselves being
what I am telling you here is not subjective because it is not about you, it points everyone that think being right in confusing themselves with everything.. which is most clear in religious type, being all one as you say for powers over all through the possession of everything rights
what I say here can not matter at all, so it says how conscious don't mean to matter, it is like you or others here, enjoying typing some posts about everything for nothing real.. but the difference is what I care about honesty and wont invent getting something out of it only because it is free ...
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19135843 - 11/14/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: "Unconscious transference"
I feel it is projection because you are telling me what I think, you are filling in many blanks with your own subjectivity.
interdependent co-arising all around
i'm not upset, i'm just not adopting it :p
truly you are wasting your breath on me
I feel a lot is lost in translation anyway
its our thoughts that conceptualize our experiences subjectively. Objectively reality is uncreated.
so if reality is true and thoughts are subjective experience, how are you the same then another and everything ??
and what translation? when my posts are clearly done at the second I am thinking about, contrary to you that keep quoting dead people talking about things that has never anything to do with reality of things
your way of imposing your freedom in pretending knowing the ends of everything is very offensive to any breath
so no I cant be wasting my breath by meaning to reduce yours, on the contrary, people like you are usually quoted for fresh air gains fast
this is the problem of the world too, what people like you keep inventing new forcing beliefs of positive ends instead of recognizing being wrong
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White Beard

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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19136155 - 11/14/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Since it's learned, it's something that a self has to learn, hence a self learns of death. If there is no self, then there is no sense of death. Looking at deep sleep, there's no fear of death because there's no self to fear death. There has to be a subject to experience this fear of death, and a self (even if fictional) is a subject of it."
This seems to make sense. Now I wonder, can experience exist without a self, or is a self needed to process the data? Is having no self any different from death? Deep sleep doesn't seem to be an experience to me. Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing.
I think if experience can exist without a self, then enlightenment can exist. Otherwise I doubt it.
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19136568 - 11/14/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: "Since it's learned, it's something that a self has to learn, hence a self learns of death. If there is no self, then there is no sense of death. Looking at deep sleep, there's no fear of death because there's no self to fear death. There has to be a subject to experience this fear of death, and a self (even if fictional) is a subject of it."
This seems to make sense. Now I wonder, can experience exist without a self, or is a self needed to process the data? Is having no self any different from death? Deep sleep doesn't seem to be an experience to me. Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing.
I think if experience can exist without a self, then enlightenment can exist. Otherwise I doubt it.
on the contrary, if the self exist then death cant be known, that is why we witness killing true existence facts or the claim of eternal life being the end for anyone, notion of heaven and hell
but if self do not exist, then there is never present thing, so death is a normal fact as it is the fact of being false, which would be all about robotics creations programmed to appear willing to exist ...
self is essential but on the negative sense of being self, which is freedom from everything else, when truth is positive existence then constant objective realizations are the exclusive way of constant plus left out, positive freedom which is not anything nor any mean
positively self is relatively existing, whether from reality that recognize objective else freedom positively, so the free in presence of else that don't ignore it would have to realize himself out of else beings, but also self exist for what positive truth exist, so any free sense is ultimately resolved in positive existing individual terms freely
this is why a lot of people mean unconsciously getting themselves in truth which is the enlightenment experience mean
when all what is realized freely without particular sense or means, showed up being far more existing and how free conscious could be pointed positively more then it could ever mean being positive to itself ... this is the enlightenment experience that every individual is after .. the sky rewards to right freedom existence
it is unfortunate that with such complex existence of infinite different positive things, the concept of things is too easily abused to serve a short fast end of anyone .. like the definition of self being a selfish materialistic mean while it is principally the fact of else recognition ..and when it is the positive fact of truth objective existence values.. that would surely become clear individuals out of superior freedom of anyone reality
Edited by absols (11/14/13 03:19 PM)
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19137777 - 11/14/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing.
I actually came here to post this because this thought crossed my mind today. 
I think when we look into it, we fear death because we fear the loss of a self. They aren't any different. Death implies the loss of "me." And no-self implies the loss of "me." I think they're really the same thing.
I would say though that one could transfer the fear of losing the self, or the idea of there being no self, to it being a fear of death. The fear of death actual puts the problem in a more abstract, far away problem, rather than dealing with the idea of there being no self now and the idea that "I" do not exist. It's a defense mechanism that the self may use to say that the problem isn't that a self (itself) exists or that it's its fictitious nature that creates the problem, but that this death and the finitude of the self in the future is the problem. It could just be more mental games that the self plays to try and preserve itself. In the end, they both star this idea of "the end of oneself" and impermanence. Death is in relation to a self. Without a self to write a narrative in our heads to make sense of things, we wouldn't have these fears or anxieties.
I think it's in the beginning of the movie Flight from Death, where the narrator talks about life in the sense of being thrown into the world, to be given a name, to become a person, only to die in the end, and this is what creates the human problem. While there's something right minded about that, it does make the assumption that there is a self that was thrown into life, given a name, to form a personality, and then to die -- but if we had no self that felt thrown into life, didn't form a personality, and didn't have a judgement on death, what would the problem be? The problem's only in relation to a subject. I don't think the assumption is wrong, (because we do feel like there is a "me" inside of ourselves) but I think the premise that death is the problem is wrong. I don't think that means that this self isn't a problem, on the contrary, I think it's the source of all the problems. Death just is -- it's the formation of a self that creates an issue with relation to itself and death that makes the problem. The self is what turns it into a problem, puts judgement onto this "problem", and says that we can't and don't want to die. Without a self, the problem isn't. I'm not trying to downplay Becker's work, I'm just saying that his entire philosophy hinges on this idea of a self, and I feel like Becker could have expanded on it more. The problem's still there, I just think it's a little bit deeper than death. It's death in relation to something.
The other questions that you brought up are intriguing for sure. I'm not sure if experience could exist without a self. I, again, look at animals and think about how they experience life. They don't have this story of themselves, and therefore, they don't have these anxieties that humans have. At the same time though, this anxiety that humans have to preserve the self, has lead us to great things -- great works of art, great advancements in medical science... So I think a question could be, do we want to get rid of the self? We need these fictitious self to operate in our idea of a society. It's why we're human.
As for Enlightenment, I guess I personally feel that glimpses of it can be seen, but I don't believe it can be sustained. The self is really wired into us, culturally and biologically. I guess I feel like while the self creates problems, the self also has a great side to it. It allows me to love and feel, and it's what allows me to be human. When I think about it more, maybe it's because I'm so attached to it, but I wouldn't want to totally have no ego/self, because then I would just be this emotional rock that doesn't feel a thing. I wouldn't want to be like that when a loved one dies; I loved them, they shaped me (this fictitious self) into what it is today, and I'd want to show that through my ego that I did care for them and that I will miss them. The ego/self is the one that does all of this, but I don't know if we can get rid of it fully to be honest. We just may be hardwired to harbor a self -- but I still think that it's this idea of the self that creates the problems. Without the subject, there wouldn't be any problems. We can't help but create problems; yet we maybe hopelessly stuck with them. 
In an objective sense, there's no problem with death, it's only the self's wish for it not to be. There has to be a subject which objects to death. It's a problem of the ego and the self wanting it to be a different way than it is. At the same time though, I tend to be okay with the trade because the illusion can be fun (as well as extremely painful at times).
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19139464 - 11/15/13 01:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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self is not an illusion it is the only present thing.. I think that it is very wrong how you come to despise yourselves..how could you then see anything or consider any value when you reject yourself value
gods including nature is cruel because of what they must mean themselves... they wont do anything for nothing, it is the power of willing that justify everything life through gods...
you are seeing self as an issue because it is alone and weak and also mortal for sure ... but again we are killed and animals fear a lot more then humans while they are never any self, but only because of death being a killer always ...
you don't want to stand for yourself pains and issues.. this is logical, since it wont change the negative objective fact, on the contrary, facing it when it is the fact would makes it more real so it seems better to play the game like everyone else and ignore the reality sense ..wishing that maybe the end would be ok for own self ..
in a more metaphysical note, self force the sense of being finite so not true, first because of else existence, the fact when others exist too objectively on the same dimension of being, the being cannot move freely for what it is not the others so it cant move through realizing what is present according to him, to be free positively out of that objective realization ..
but there is a way to stay free out of everything right, is through superiority sense, by conceiving objective perspective on others of its possible positive end value while meaning to realize that value whether it is here or not
what is realized over what is there is all to true existence facts, so the self stay free right, but no one do that for what everyone mean to get superior support or positive sense from others and not themselves ..
the universe or existence is not a source..on the contrary, it needs a lot more then anyone of us .. there is nothing to expect from
truth by definition is not a source, truth is a fact that cannot change, so anyone is the hope of positive corrections to what facts realities generate of bad..
the idea is what the self is the freedom value, what is light because it can change and move consciously out of what is wrong or not positive end, but also it can do the right thing when others wont, so could be related to all superior freedom dimensions which is out of positive truth fact more then anything existence, the positive source
reality so existence is the highest value of anything, it exists because infinite superiority led to ... but also that is why existence as an objective fact loose its value continuously .. the thing is to keep it up right by conceiving objective superiority right so to be through abstract superior dimension continuously ... the fact that self being is always nothing to all and barely something real, gives it the character of infinite in fact, when the self stays true
dying is not a problem for anyone, on the contrary, everyone knows how it gets tired in being and wish constantly to stop being and not being forced to exist .. the need in beings constant are huge especially through all kind of abuses ... so the fear cant be about death and if the mean is to stay in being positive will, then it cant be about fearing when it is about something plus to get or to want...
again, we are alone because in truth, so anything is different reality in same conception of what is right, while any is also free of what everything is also right at a relative point so objective freedom is the constant existence of plus ... while all that is happening on a relative dimension, but true relativity is like absolute one when truth is the reason of absolutes fact
so we are alone ultimately, but actually we are forced to be out of others realities and wills.. which is obviously abused .. that is why the relational point of conscious is the issue to resolve by being conscious now
it is clear how there is no communication between one and another at all.. it is all whether through life so positive common will, or through dealing with others through their needs or weakness of others .. like gods mean their need to worship them as to give them ourselves value in being for their free life
ultimately we are ourselves only, because what is present must be true so consciously held, as what is first is always the conscious when only truth exist.. so constant objective realizations and independence in filling our needs through the same conception of possible ways, is the reason of existence to also invent a right resolution out of all truth conceptions, for how to deal with plural presence, when each reality is an individual conscious free source constantly for ever .. what is the constant right way of the fact including different beings?? where that right can head or lead to ? since any existence right{freedom} starts from its positive ends
Edited by absols (11/15/13 02:11 AM)
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19140334 - 11/15/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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9. the attribution to another person or object the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself.
you are projecting your views on to me and the rest of the world
I haven't read anything but the first sentence but silence is where its at imo the rest is nonsense, including my own nonsense.
and the buddha's nonsense
everyones nonsense
except science but still nonsense prevails
Edited by Sse (11/15/13 10:21 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19140516 - 11/15/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you don't exist but to yourself, especially on the net where there is no reality but of subjects words individually realized
so objectively there cant be another for any projection to do
but if you are attacking others intent, this what reveal yourself offensive will
and sciences miss is never present in the objective sense of being a reason of anything, or what could matter
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19144802 - 11/16/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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tbh its painful to try to read/make sense of your word structure. Maybe I have misconstrued your message... I haven't yet delved into your recent writings.
"you are forcing the reality that others don't matter to you"
"this question shows the depth of wrong, you are consciously rejecting what you know for sure, which is not knowing anything for the fanciful belief that you are everything too so you can enjoy talking about all as it pleases you ,,"
"you believe that you are like all... this is wrong "
"it is clear that your ways are consciously through projecting yourself in anything as being everything the same"
"it is your choice to cultivate christian beliefs, like you are insisting that yourself existence is about everything existence the same, that all opposites are one same created life "
"still the way you mean to force the equality between right and wrong"
"here again you show how your mind is only about you, how you are blind to anything else then you "
stuff like this makes me feel you are projecting your views onto me... filling in the blanks with your subjectivity.
But I'm sure I'm losing a lot due to the way much of what you say is constructed... it just doesn't make much sense to me. This discussion and confusion has been a reminder for me that we "construct" our world with our thoughts/conceptions/labels. In simplicity/objectivity it is without these conceptions... raw existence. Perhaps if I wasn't raised constantly being told this is negative this is positive, these people are superior then I wouldn't have had such conditioned reason to look down on people, or to feel inferior or to dwell in a state that I felt is negative and should be met with a negative reaction.
Many negative states can be faced with just as much positivity as the conditioned positives but I wasn't conditioned to face them in that way.... now I am conditioning myself to lose all of that because subjectivity swells up and flashes of conceptualization help themselves and build my perceptions/perspectives. So by constantly bringing myself back to equanimity and facing my conditions with an even stance I can slowly resolve the unwholesome reactions and face all with love and learn to dwell happily in whatever life has in store.
If I keep going around saying this is most positive this is the superior way... then for myself personally I am reminded of and am unconsciously perpetuating these stereotypes. Instead I choose not to continue these thought processes. For me they perpetuate polarity when reality is non-dual.
"All these [practitioners] stray from the point because they polarize the non-dual reality, And since they fail to unify [these extremes] in non-duality, they do not attain Buddhahood. Thus, all of those beings continue to roam in cyclic existence, Because they persistently engage in [forms of] renunciation, And in acts of rejection and acceptance with regard to their own minds, Where [in reality] cyclic existence and nirvana are inseparable"
Maybe one day if enlightenment occurs I can go about participating in subjectivity without being conditioned in such a way... for now training wheels
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/16/13 11:09 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19144889 - 11/16/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you keep meaning yourself, what you mean to do in life and how to justify yourself .. you have no respect for objective rights you cant but value individuals while at the same time denying subjects value of humans in truth
an individual is nothing.. you are not all and the majority is only the number of individuals ...
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145033 - 11/16/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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yes there is no concrete self, how I relate today is not how I related a year ago or yesterday or tomorrow or five minutes from now... ever flowing process and conditioned since birth conditioned before birth continue to be conditioned. In reality I am nothing... just a bunch of interdependent conglomerations, into what you see speaking before you today.
I'm not sure what you mean by objective rights.
denying subjects value of humans in truth? I'm not denying anyone or anything. For myself I am not perpetuating it. It may be true with the subjective majority but objectively there is no right or wrong or positive or negative or superior/inferior.
the only person who said I was all was your implications and I don't know what context you are applying... I guess you took that from the word equanimity. I'm not sure. Interdependency is undeniable, you effect one strand of the web all strands will be effected. Everything that is came to be because everything else is exactly where it is. Though I think where there is perceptions there are deceptions so I just try to dwell in the mystery... leaving it unknown, unfigured out... because it would be a delusion to say I know.
The truth:

everything thought and conceptualized is serving a degree of delusion.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145059 - 11/16/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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more power to you if you think you've figured it out and have the truth conceptualized in the palm of you hand... much of it has served me in finding my one pointedness but now that I am able to sustain that one-pointedness the less I find I need those reminders and need to be told the right/wrong way. All that matters for me is establishing equanimity and sustaining it. The rest will unfold, there is nothing else to do or seek imo.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19145099 - 11/16/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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keep the power it is all wrong, as you might confuse yourself with your god powers
and you keep meaning to support contradictions
there cant be equality when wrong and right are the same thing as superior and inferior.. on the contrary the more you believe that edges do not exist the more freedom is negative, so all would be real gaps opposite
equality exist only because edges are true, so everything is positively through one way only which is the way of all existing things
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145117 - 11/16/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I never said they don't exist but it is a mental game that has been perpetuated, for good reason I'm sure.
I say within my own created self I choose not to perpetuate them. I've explained how I view equanimity already and how I use it and why I use it. Its to unify the extremes because they are littered with subjectivity generation to generation.
I agree everything can be positive through objectivity but that's only because life has been polarized. In actuality positive is positive and negative is positive they cancel themselves out; objectively everything just is
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19145142 - 11/16/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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that is your will, because you mean to benefit yourself
i am being subjective you will say .. NO it is obvious how you don't enjoy meaning others rights and that is what makes you believe that selves do not exist, which is not only absurd with the presence of everyone else, but also cruel really
objective is the fact present which is not the truth, so no objective is not the positive anyhow while it is obvious what the fact of existence is only negative inferiority in all ways.. what objectivity are you seen positive mrs..??
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Icyus
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145166 - 11/16/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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" If there is no self, then there is no sense of death." -this be true.
"This seems to make sense. Now I wonder, can experience exist without a self, or is a self needed to process the data? Is having no self any different from death? Deep sleep doesn't seem to be an experience to me. Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing." -It may not be an expereance to you, an ego, but how can even you expereance something that is not? I think you will still expereance, but one would not care about the aspect of positivity and negativity no more...
"I think if experience can exist without a self, then enlightenment can exist." -this is likely.
"This is wrong" -this is sending a denial. All is relative, so one cannot know anything; thus saying someone else is wrong or right for that matter serves no purpose other than sending a positive or negative energy.
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145172 - 11/16/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Right my will to benefit myself and others.
Right it would take a subjective thought/experience to say that objectivity is positive.
no concrete, solid, eternal self. We are constantly changing and the self you know as yourself is because of the conditioning experienced throughout life. There is no self, only a process that continues to be conditioned.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145205 - 11/16/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have a feeling your thoughts on all and self are different then mine due to the data/encounters you've received.
regardless
Leave everything as it is in fundamental simplicity and clarity will arise by itself. Only by doing nothing will you do all there is to be done....
off to start my day
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19145760 - 11/16/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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it is incredible how hateful you are to anyone else
everybody miss is alone handling his life, while you obviously are living by receiving data and encounters...enough said about your love to enslave others
I will never get how people can claim such things as if they are illuminated from being up and not the only present willing mouth there.. like if you are conditioned to believe certain things you would die through without ever seeing it, to even think the possibility to say it ...
while you are clearly seen being the same always meaning to point others as being slaves for conditions of your equality my arse
obviously all the nothing you do didn't serve the least of you to appear meaning well
you have it all wrong, freedom is superiority so positive source which is why it is everything.. so the nothing you claim being is to what should never mean a thing
but don't worry, it is obvious how at the end there going to be two different existence, the nothing and less / the something and everything
and no there is no change ever, while you clearly demonstrate it by keeping repeating the same positive will but also for true selves so real depth of free states, superior sense is to constant absolute fact first so always the same while more positively free
so bye-bye from now, since all between us is already clear
Edited by absols (11/16/13 03:42 PM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19145871 - 11/16/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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experience without being free is about positive sense
that is why the positive nature seem to be transferred into things to get instead of being free as a positive source, so positively existing
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19149166 - 11/17/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's all relative
I'm pretty confused by your assessment but to each their own... we are creating our world with our thoughts.
I feel like I was matching your intensity but that could be delusion on my part as well.
What things do I claim that make you think these things? Obviously my conceptualization is relative to my experience... I wouldn't expect a complete understanding from another.
Regardless its all created nonsense anyhow. The objective truth is without elaboration... everything else seems to have risen from our means of surviving in this world and relating to our experience based on our past experiences... shuffled over from generation to generation. To the point now where much of it is unnecessary for myself personally. Unification and abolishment of the internal extremes is my path for my own well being... the path is personal, life is complicated. I cultivate equanimity because it helps me a long the path to silence... where nothing can be misconstrued or deluded. Where objective truth awaits.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19149504 - 11/17/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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you are the objective truth.. objectively you cannot be but true...which again prove how your mean is to take advantage of truth as if you can be over the truth or a physical lie..which is absurd
when truth is the fact then any objective conscious is individually the object reality freely as a matter of fact..
the truth is never an object it is the perspective that is objective but as relative to truth fact
and that is why equality don't exist, honey but you can be all equal to yourself as an absolute thing out of everything and everyone else since you are a free present individual reality as a matter of fact alone relatively true too
Edited by absols (11/17/13 12:24 PM)
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19149854 - 11/17/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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objectively true as in "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions" represented by emptiness/void/signlessness but I'm not sure if it can truly be represented. Everything else is "mere temporary appearances" cause and effect. Impermanent interdependent originations. Relative.
"all things are projections created by the mind" "expression of various conditions temporarily coming together- like the sound of the drum."
"there is nothing concrete or absolutely real behind the sound- or behind anything else."
"nothing behind appearances"
"its not just the self that's inherently empty, but anything-and everything" -Lama Surya Das Awakening the Buddha Within
equanimity comes naturally when letting go(releasing attachment), just being, dwelling happily in what is, not bound by one side or the other. Without discrimination, impartiality, prejudice, bias, clinging. The rest just dissolves away.
obviously I am a work in progress
Edited by Sse (11/17/13 02:02 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19152255 - 11/17/13 10:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think I liked the OP because it gets down to the pragmatics of living with death looming. Viewing it instead as a loss of self can be highly enabling. And here's why I say that. Every time we are faced with a situation that threatens our identity we are faced with that good ole primal fear. Whether the identity is tied up with the physical body or tied up with a mental abstraction. Same, same. And although death seems inevitable, dealing with identification is another story. Some degree of identification is necessary for survival but there is a lot of wiggle room. So much of what leads to defensiveness is wholly unnecessary and often a large waste of energy/resources.
Trying to do battle with death is a guaranteed loss Whereas wise choices in identification can be liberating May as well use a shield which enables
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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r72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19152320 - 11/17/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I think I liked the OP because it gets down to the pragmatics of living with death looming. Viewing it instead as a loss of self can be highly enabling. And here's why I say that. Every time we are faced with a situation that threatens our identity we are faced with that good ole primal fear. Whether the identity is tied up with the physical body or tied up with a mental abstraction. Same, same. And although death seems inevitable, dealing with identification is another story. Some degree of identification is necessary for survival but there is a lot of wiggle room. So much of what leads to defensiveness is wholly unnecessary and often a large waste of energy/resources.
I don't see how it's more or less enabling. What does it mean to view it as a loss a self to be highly enabling enabling? I think it's the same thing. It's still, regardless of what we call it, that bone gripping existential terror. I read the rest of your post, but I still don't think that calling it the fear of no-self makes anything any better.
I'd argue that identification with the body is wholly necessary, both mentally and physically. It's what allows us to make sense of what's going on around us. I don't think calling it the fear of no-self changes the identification that much, it just pin points it a little more. Death and no-self, to me, are really two ways of saying the same thing. They imply each other.
Quote:
Kickle said: Trying to do battle with death is a guaranteed loss Whereas wise choices in identification can be liberating May as well use a shield which enables 
Yeah, pretty much. The way I see it, the solution to denying and repressing our mortality/impermanence is to construct a fixed identity (an attempt at permanence). I guess after White Beard's comment, I don't see how they're different at all. I guess what confuses me though, is, what shields are you talking about? No matter what is used, they're all shields. They're attempts to fix ourselves in a place and say that we know something. (An attempt at some form of permanence)
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19152329 - 11/17/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have zero control over death but some control over my self. So if I see my fear relating to death, it is hopeless because I cannot control this. If I see my fear relating to loss of myself, I can alter myself to minimize losses. I can pragmatically approach the problem rather than being helpless.
I don't think they are the same. I think that viewing it as a fear of no-self is a shield against death anxiety rather than death anxiety itself. A conceptualization of the raw fear which provides a means to approach the issue.
Edit: I agree with you that it is all shields.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (11/17/13 11:07 PM)
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r72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19152375 - 11/17/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I see now what you're saying. It's used a another shield.
I guess, personally, I don't even think we have control over our egos or self. It's still the same helpless game. I just think that the self "is" because we're biologically programmed to develop a self. We all seem to feel like there's a "me" inside of me. And while I agree that no-self is a conceptualization of a raw fear (just like death anxiety is), I don't think it's off or wrong. It's just identifying what's going on.
If these biological bodies didn't have a self, then there wouldn't be any issue or problem. But it's not the case, and we do have a self. I personally don't think that means we can really get rid of a self, but I think it's still the heart of the same matter. The fear that "I" will end.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19152393 - 11/17/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah no total control over self. But I can think of several things I have linked my sense of self in with unnecessarily and since have become wise to such actions in advance. That is some control IMO.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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r72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19152424 - 11/17/13 11:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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By that, sure, I could agree that there's some form of self control.
But just because you linked somethings with your sense of self, would that mean that really are or aren't linked to your sense of self?
I just thought of a way to summarize what I'm trying to say. We seem to be biological built to try, at all costs, to make ourselves permanent and to avoid our death. This is the attempt of a biological organism to do that, and the self allows us to try and do that. If the self isn't real, and there is no-self, then there's nothing that could be done to let ourselves fill that existential void to try and make ourselves permanent. Hence, no-self and death invoke the same fear and the same attempts to overcome these fears. No matter what, it's still invoking the same shields to try and ward this off, and to make ourselves permanent in one form or another.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19152497 - 11/17/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I really like what you are saying and agree. I will try to summarize as well my relation to this thread.
As in my first post, I find it absurd to consider where we find ourselves. However, if one does find themselves in this position, it seems best to work with the issue pragmatically. And I see no-self as perhaps the most direct yet still potentially pragmatic explanation. I view it somewhat through the Buddhist lens. There is loads of suffering here. And if there were anything at all subjectively that is really important, it is lessening that suffering. And so one needs to approach it sensibly, pragmatically, and wisely. To me this necessitates a shield which allows active engagement of the core problem as it relates to subjective suffering. So as to be a warrior who is actively gaining ground on the enemy while behind their shield rather than one who is just hiding out in a fortress hoping the enemy will forget about them.
Perhaps it is simply youth which makes me want to at least attempt to gain some ground. But the reason is of little importance if gains are seen regarding personal suffering. And in my case I have seen quite significant changes.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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r72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19152573 - 11/18/13 12:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: As in my first post, I find it absurd to consider where we find ourselves. However, if one does find themselves in this position, it seems best to work with the issue pragmatically. And I see no-self as perhaps the most direct yet still potentially pragmatic explanation. I view it somewhat through the Buddhist lens. There is loads of suffering here. And if there were anything at all subjectively that is really important, it is lessening that suffering. And so one needs to approach it sensibly, pragmatically, and wisely. To me this necessitates a shield which allows active engagement of the core problem as it relates to subjective suffering. So as to be a warrior who is actively gaining ground on the enemy while behind their shield rather than one who is just hiding out in a fortress hoping the enemy will forget about them.
Perhaps it is simply youth which makes me want to at least attempt to gain some ground. But the reason is of little importance if gains are seen regarding personal suffering. And in my case I have seen quite significant changes.
I couldn't agree more with your first line. Life seems to be inherently absurd from a human stand point.
How does identifying with no-self help though? To me, this is the fear that we're trying to ward off. Is it identifying with the "self of no-self" as a shield to help navigate? At least in relation to Buddhist teachings, I just see no-self as a statement of the nature of reality.
I, similarly, take a Buddhist-like lens. (I started going to a temple to ward off my anxieties. ) I feel like we can lessen our suffering and the suffering of others by recognizing that we're trying to avoid suffering (our anxieties and worries) and that we're trying to constantly cling to something stable (like people, or belief systems such as Buddhism). Like you said, even though it's a shield, it still allows us to get at the the core of the problem of suffering.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19153339 - 11/18/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think it likely helps for the same reason that death can be seen as something to look forward to. A release. And it can be tailored to individual stability in each moment. As much or as little identity can come into play as allowed emotionally. Or at least that has been my experience. While I may intellectually understand the absence of any inherent self, the experience is more piecemeal. Say as an emotional link to this event here causing a personal connection which can be worked with - a small and manageable release - as opposed to waiting for death to wipe the whole slate clean.
We want permanence but the active attempts at creating it do not often benefit us. IMO the release of these is the reason to enter into such examinations in the first place. To let needless burdens go. The more comfortably this can be done the better if you ask me.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19153390 - 11/18/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between you and 72
I think you both understand our human condition very well. Which is also (imo) very rare.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19153445 - 11/18/13 10:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I couldn't agree more with your first line. Life seems to be inherently absurd from a human stand point.
How does identifying with no-self help though? To me, this is the fear that we're trying to ward off. Is it identifying with the "self of no-self" as a shield to help navigate? At least in relation to Buddhist teachings, I just see no-self as a statement of the nature of reality.
uniqueness is an illusion enjoy :-) ram dass has a good viewpoint IMO
life is only absurd if you think youre unique
no self/soul in body is my base state, no uniquness, one with others I see many people know this, we are all very similar inside, even old hippies, buddhists etc. we just tend to forget... for some reason..
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
#19153471 - 11/18/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between you and 72
I think you both understand our human condition very well. Which is also (imo) very rare. 
The gift and burden of introspective intelligence
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19153541 - 11/18/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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what I see from your conversation here is that exclusive mean of own-self, it is like you wont care for an objective matter, for what it must be about oneself.. as if you mean to use objective thinking ways to be an answer for you.. and it is not a problem for you to mean being the answer for all where you would feel getting a point
we are different, In what I don't sense the issue like you
I am saying this from what I see what you mean now, you live in the concept of being so you are not real to yourselves..that is why actually you don't know or you are not sure actually how death can bother you
I live the issue from life, so totally objectively by being present with everything as they are
and I am telling you, the problem is not you, death in life is from being killed.. that is why you are right in not identifying yourselves with the issue, like knowing that you are not concerned by death or self being
it is true what animals fear death more then humans, while they are selfless hundred percent, and live objectively like things, but they do fear the aggressors ends they see
being killed is huge issue because of truth.. we are not supposed to be killed even as things
this is what bother the thought where it is hard to find a concept that could justify death, even if our freedom accept it fully
truth is positive and when existence is about true realities, and when any concept of being is only through best ends, then the mean of getting back or becoming negative, is about being wrong certainty, in the objective sense of all existence being wrong and not true nor right
maybe you identify yourselves with the idea of enjoying created life, so you deal with death in knowing how you mean it right, like what you enjoy being for a while in dreaming about something to do and then die ... this is why maybe the reference of anything is personal to you, as it depends on your dream while everything else must be not true
maybe you know where the whole life is fake but I know where the whole existence is true
maybe it is the fight between life and existence, completely two different thing
life depends on positive confusions with every other will around as the objective thing
existence depends on facts constancy generating a plus energy out of it as the reason of free different realities beings the matter of existence fact
that is why also being is individually, the free positive mean reality out of the same fact
but when the fact is false through creators, then life prevail over true existence, even though life is about killing else as the way of free positive self reality
but existence is true where truth exist, which has nothing to do with our beings physically and mentally
and it seems that truth freedom is against creations at some points far away..that can be perceived only beyond absolute facts of all life
but anyway, this confirm how anyone is doing the best possible, by caring first about himself positive reasons it knows being for as it seems that we are alone really, those fighting are abusing us from both sides and don't mean to give us our beings to us and do their things life and existence with their own beings where they are
Edited by absols (11/18/13 11:11 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19153616 - 11/18/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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What I understand about how existence works is what I experience first hand. I take the simple path because I am a simpleton.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19153653 - 11/18/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: We want permanence but the active attempts at creating it do not often benefit us. IMO the release of these is the reason to enter into such examinations in the first place. To let needless burdens go. The more comfortably this can be done the better if you ask me.
I see what you're saying now. (or at least I think) It's a shield that can help one. It can be really useful then.
Something that I just can't get over though is along the lines of this:
Quote:
I think it likely helps for the same reason that death can be seen as something to look forward to. A release.
I don't think death is something to look forward to because it's "good." Even re-framing it like this doesn't change the nature of it. The same goes for the opposite of it, which would be, shying away from it because it's "bad." It's neither good nor bad -- it just is. Death just is. It's only in relation to an organism who can think about it abstractly, that has a self to pass judgement on it. Death isn't a problem, it's just a self that creates a problem. If there was no self, wouldn't there be no problem?
Even the word that I used in that context, "reframing," show how it's something being able to change. It's a self that's changing it. And now I see what you're talking about with being able to feel like one has some control over the situation as opposed to feeling helpless about it.
So now my mind's changing a bit. Maybe we do have some form of control over the situation? Maybe we can create a self that can accept the helpless nature of it while at the same time coming to terms with it.
Death is a lost battle -- that just seems to be a fact of nature. We're going to die. But maybe we can, not "overcome" death because that implies going beyond it, but integrate it fully without judgement?
I still whole heatedly think that a self is needed in order for death to be a problem to start with.
EDIT: Something I'm trying to get at is that death and a self seem so intertwined that they're hard to separate.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
Edited by r72rock (11/18/13 11:18 AM)
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19153684 - 11/18/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: What I understand about how existence works is what I experience first hand. I take the simple path because I am a simpleton.
the thing is what existence don't work, existence in concept is not relative, it is about true reality, this is what the word exist mean
that is why existence is free different wills, like the fact of existing would invent what to do relatively, the fact of existing wont do itself it would be absurd .. nor of course doing what is against itself which would be absurd too
communication with positive else seem something to do relatively but it is shown not being right .. the idea of exclusive love is also meant .. but also shown being not true.. this is I think a big issue of everything true existence as it doesn't have an answer so evil is stronger
this is why my guess is what existence sense is for the destruction of evil first, then existence possible facts to do would be more clear according to true existence beings and not conceived when evil is also there
for now truth suffer of giving life to its contradiction, because truth wont invent something and while its fact must stay free constancy results which happen alone, meanwhile evil is getting there before
there cant be but truth in freedom ways for sure, only truth is in nothing the exclusive positive source, as superior fact clarity value
Edited by absols (11/18/13 11:35 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19153737 - 11/18/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well like I said what I understand is what I experience. And I don't experience any true reality so I guess for me there is no existence to speak of. My experience is relative and changing.
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Kickle
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
#19153787 - 11/18/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah the two seem mutually dependent. I strive for the sort of self you are describing but it really takes form in accepting the negative emotions surrounding death, or said another way, in accepting the interaction between my self and death. An ugly beast of an undertaking in many ways. But that is the only way I know of to then begin cherry picking what elements to cultivate for well being and what elements to cut off.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19154358 - 11/18/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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death is not a concept to create a self for, death is through many different realities forcing its negative constant nature till death
dealing with death is dealing with pain, physically and morally when it is always what aggressions cause, whether of a very serious disease or living more powerful conscious that can destroy another by forcing it to die and gets bigger while gaining powers of that, it is too easy to invent hating others from loving own self to be in power
any condition of being is forced to be by accepting others conditions able to kill it, like any man can easily kill a woman, physically and mentally by condition of birth, and there is nothing to do about it, whatever the particular case of woman being intelligent and the man being inferior in all means, metaphysically she must fear and he can force
it has nothing to do with truth, at all, while all to do with life inventions of existence through same free wills to profit from possible free pretenses for granted
the issue is also what truth don't care, i cant understand how such obvious lies can be called being for truth, existence is a value not because of free wills, there are free wills for true existing value out of nothing, how did it became the reverse prove the opportunism at the head of it
another big lie, is what says that truth whether free or existing is only at one point, so only one that justify all others to be liars... it is not true at all what is true is obviously what actualize objective superiority to else meaning its freedom randomly out of it for any other random reason or not.. but fast opportunism are after any right move or mean to get everything easily by enslaving others to do the hard thing and enjoying the sense of freedom got of realized knowledge as power over superiority of truth
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g00ru
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19154648 - 11/18/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.
right on man...whether you feel yourself to be in a manifest or unmanifest state, if one is unattached to the self, then yes that removes virtually all obligatory effort and you can just accept the inevitability of death (of the body...) to me that is a very freeing thought.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19154683 - 11/18/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Well like I said what I understand is what I experience. And I don't experience any true reality so I guess for me there is no existence to speak of. My experience is relative and changing.
the idea of true reality, is seen when the conscious enjoy to know true things sources... then it becomes clear how for a thing to be a fact it must be out of any causality chain, otherwise it cant be a whole objective independent thing, so it means that positive thing is out of free superiority so nothing to all, then it becomes like a hobby to search in anything even a thought what freedom value actualize the existence of a free point and what positive source is objectively constantly in that point fact alone, and realize a sense of too in what own self could relatively agree with fact and in what terms to realize it too... this is just the beginning out of human being random mind
what is more hard to explain is the process of realizing being the positive source of any superior point out of comparing different present realities of things, this is how individuals really exist by doing a plus to a standard they realize as objective being
it is a different way of being i mean that should be justified fully being as valuable as yours for example meaning your reactions for being constant success, is a way that could be right you are the one that knows it, as my way is also right for me and others, we are not positive for being constant but we are positive for superiority to be real, like people who are more true, cant invent being positive, it must be true first
again it is not a state of mind, it is more about freedom rights which should not be discussed when they are assumed by the free themselves
what is to discuss is what is wrong, how to deal with what is clearly known being wrong
someone like you who would mean itself being well, wont care about being wrong in the objective sense, since wrong is always else, one is always right to itself, which is normal
so people that are more true, then without particular positive will, would care about wrong a lot, as they would react negatively to wrong objective things, since they don't have positive wills so they don't have personal negative reactions towards any else
this is also the issue of their slavery because they are more true, how things in depth are forced for creations of being superior, to suffer a lot of negativity that has nothing to do with while enslaved to give positive that way
there is a real issue, and i don't understand how someone is alone to mean such infinite facts happening together on living rights
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g00ru
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
#19154696 - 11/18/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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but part 2 to that statement is, just because one is 'unnatatched' to the self doesn't mean we still shouldn't 'try' to 'stay in our heart/be here now/inquire into the self' because this is just always a good thing to do. when you can do that AND see the self as yet another object, then i think that comes full circle to your OP
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19155297 - 11/18/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Truth has no path. Truth is living and, therefore, changing. It has no resting place, no form, no organized institution, no philosophy. You cannot express and be alive through static, put-together form, through stylized movement."
"Having totality means being capable of following "what is," because "what is" is constantly moving and constantly changing. If one is anchored to a particular view, one will not be able to follow the swift movement of "what is.""
"How can there be methods and systems to arrive at something that is living? To that which is static, fixed, dead, there can be a way, a definite path, but not to that which is living. Do not reduce reality to a static thing and then invent methods to reach it."
"When you are uninfluenced, when you die to the conditioning of classical responses, then you will know awareness and see things totally fresh, totally new."
"Awareness is without choice, without demand, without anxiety; in that state of mind, there is perception. Perception alone will resolve all our problems."
"Understanding requires not just a moment of perception, but a continuous awareness, a continuous state of inquiry without conclusion."
"Effort within the mind further limits the mind, because effort implies struggle towards a goal and when you have a goal, a purpose, an end in view, you have placed a limit on the mind."
"Thinking is not freedom- all thought is partial; it can never be total. Thought is the response of memory and memory is always partial, because memory is the result of experience. So, thought is the reaction of a mind conditioned by experience."
"Classical concentration that focuses on one thing and excludes all others, and awareness, which is total and excludes nothing, are states of the mind that can be understood only by objective, non-prejudiced observation."
"Concentration is a narrowing down of the mind. But we are concerned with the total process of living and to concentrate exclusively on any particular aspect of life, belittles life."
"Insight is realizing that one's original nature is not created."
"Because one does not want to be disturbed, to be made uncertain, he establishes a pattern of conduct, of thought, a pattern of relationships to man. He then becomes a slave to the pattern and takes the pattern to be the real thing."
"To express yourself in freedom, you must die to everything of yesterday. From the "old", you derive security; from the "new", you gain the flow.
"There is "what is" only when there is no comparing and to live with "what is" is to be peaceful."
"One can function freely and totally if he is "beyond system." The man who is really serious, with the urge to find out what truth is, has no style at all. He lives only in what is."
Tao Of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (11/18/13 05:17 PM)
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19155671 - 11/18/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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good quotes, agree with those that I read :-)
no doubt, no worries, no frustration, no fear, accept and appreciate
less is more :-)
personally I enjoy a walk in nature, sitting in nature, and trance music
all problems leave
trance is like meditation at work... time stops youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OV6Dm4yY7Do i.e.
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19155698 - 11/18/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
#19157116 - 11/18/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Yeah the two seem mutually dependent. I strive for the sort of self you are describing but it really takes form in accepting the negative emotions surrounding death, or said another way, in accepting the interaction between my self and death. An ugly beast of an undertaking in many ways. But that is the only way I know of to then begin cherry picking what elements to cultivate for well being and what elements to cut off.
Yeah well said. 
It is a tough route for sure. Something I've really taken away from this talk was the trap that no-self can produce that you'd mentioned. It can subtly be another way to deny our mortality by promoting permanence of something separate from death when no-self implies total impermanence. It can be used as a good, pragmatic shield though like you demonstrated.
Definitely something I'll be thinking about for a while. 
Life be a lot of smoke and mirrors, heh.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19157149 - 11/18/13 10:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: uniqueness is an illusion enjoy :-) ram dass has a good viewpoint IMO
life is only absurd if you think youre unique
no self/soul in body is my base state, no uniquness, one with others I see many people know this, we are all very similar inside, even old hippies, buddhists etc. we just tend to forget... for some reason..
Most forms of uniqueness are a type of illusion from my experience.
But people like to feel unique to avoid the absurdity. Camus wrote a lot about this. We feel a need to escape the absurdity of life (eat, sleep, reproduce... repeat... die). So we have to try and create ourselves in a unique way to escape the absurdity.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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absols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
#19158676 - 11/19/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: less is more :-)
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OV6Dm4yY7Do i.e.
this is also a lie, less is obviously always nothing objectively, which is how rights are abused and there is no exit for, and why powers are only by abusing others as a way of being always more
if you happen to see an intelligent less it doesn't mean that it became more only because it surprised you of not being dumb while it looks down, but it do mean that less is because of other abuse through powers of evil ways, so it is enslaving something right of forcing it to be its reverse, while it is doing it all but making it appear as someone else but less
anything is reversed and then forced to be possessed since not true like the true thing is what more is always evil, so superiority should not be present and positive should always be freedom so not real
more mean subjective plus, that are denying else rights which exist so lessing objective perspectives rights, which is in killing rights, what is known being basically free superiority, in order to be more
what is not present is the plus of truth conception rights, so infinite values that exist through truth freedom so what is never present in all space as being facts what matter, or matters reasons because no conscious would actualize objective rights value and keep its present fact out of fact truth, like the less that is nothing to, so act objectively as not being present for present true value
truth freedom conception is first what is always beyond everything facts superiority and all positive present realizations, without even being its source nor its reasons
so it proves how less is not more, but an abuse of rights ways known
willingly to appear nothing for what it is an own act so smart is true like consciously deciding the best moves, for best existence in truth perfection actualization as it is always absolutely right, so objective must always be through consciously too
what is acting in knowing being only its fact so the most superior present perspective, when present superiority is present constant, when anything perceived objectively being else is never present sense,
so that is clearly never the less reference as it doesn't even appear existing that is how it is all invented how right people are appeared being less, it is not true it is all inventions forms of reversing the fact so killing the truth rights
but what appear being less is in fact the submission to evil powers will enslaving its conscious, as it cant be existing in truth freedom actualization
conscious is the relative fact of truth freedom knowledge being always beyond what comes first, conscious is relative freedom truth, so it shows how its submissions is meant from evil wills for cheapest and easiest ways to abuse constancy being objective as a weak fact, for powerful ends as superior exclusive present, so abusing its true individual fact too
so evil matters, what is only one objectively as constant existence so its own fact abuse, but also objective recognition being else to own fact, matter too.. while it is too less being so easily enslaved
like who is really submitted is who really consider the powers upon him as being else, so less right but relatively right while what is relative is nothing so any insisting force upon would be the constant meaning will identity
Edited by absols (11/19/13 09:14 AM)
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deCypher



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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19159038 - 11/19/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Who we are changes, day by day--our cells are continually replaced, our thoughts pass like clouds in the wind, and even our personalities change over time from experience.
And yet, I am still ME, even if who I am has changed over my lifetime. An independent, unchanging self does not exist--that much is obvious. But no matter how many boards get ripped out and replaced from Theseus' ship, it's still Theseus' ship. ...No?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Sse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
#19159405 - 11/19/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"The subject of knowledge cannot exist independently from the object of knowledge. To see is to see something. To hear is to hear something. To be angry is to be angry about something. Hope is to hope for something. Thinking is thinking about something. When the object of knowledge is not present, there can be no subject. Meditate and see the interbeing of the subject and the object."
"When you practice mindfulness of breathing, then the breathing is mind. When you practice mindfulness of the body, then your body is mind. When you practice mindfulness of objects outside of yourself, these objects are mind. Therefore, the contemplation of the interbeing of subject and object is also the contemplation of the mind. Every object of the mind is itself mind."
"Contemplation on interdependence is a deep looking into all dharmas in order to pierce through to their real nature, in order to see them as part of the great body of reality and in order to see that the great body of reality is indivisible. It cannot be cut into pieces with separate existences of their own."
"The object of our mind can be a mountain, a rose, the full moon, or the person standing in front of us. We believe these things exist outside of us as separate entities, but these objects of our perception are us. This includes our feeling. When we hate someone, we also hate ourself. The object of our mindfulness is actually the whole cosmos. Mindfulness is mindfulness of the body, feelings, perceptions, any of the mental formations, and all of the seeds in our consciousness."
"The Four Establishments of Mindfulness contain everything in the cosmos. Everything in the cosmos is the object of our perception, and as such, it does not exist only outside of us but also within us."
"If we look deeply at the bud on the tree, we will see its nature. It may be very small, but it is also like the earth, because the leaf in the bud will become part of the earth. If we see the truth of one thing in the cosmos, we see the nature of the cosmos. Because of our mindfulness, our deep looking, the nature of the cosmos will reveal itself. It is not a matter of imposing our ideas of the nature of the cosmos."
The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Sse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
#19159559 - 11/19/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"To practice is to go beyond ideas, so you can arrive at the suchness of things. "No idea" is the path of non-conception. As long as there is an idea, there is no reality, no truth. "No idea" means no wrong idea, no wrong conception. It does not mean no mindfulness."
"Nirvana is the extinction of all notions. Birth is a notion. Death is a notion. Being is a notion. Nonbeing is a notion. In our daily lives, we have to deal with these relative realities. But if we touch life more deeply, reality will reveal itself in a different way."
"the Buddha said, "There is no birth and no death, no being and no nonbeing," and he offered us impermanence, nonself, interbeing and emptiness to discover the true nature of reality."
"Nirvana means extinction, above all the extinction of ideas-the idea of birth and death, existence and nonexistence, coming and going, self and other, one and many. All these ideas cause us to suffer. We are afraid of death because ignorance gives us an illusory idea about what death is. We are disturbed by the idea of existence and nonexistence because we have not understood the true nature of impermanence and nonself."
In Buddhism we talk about the Eight concepts: birth, death, permanence, dissolution, coming, going, one, and many. The practice to end attachment to these eight ideas is called the Eight No's of the Middle Way- no birth and no death, no permanence, no dissolution, no coming, and no going, no one and no many."
In the thirteenth century in Vietnam, someone asked Master Tue Trung a question following a dharma talk, and he replied, "Having offered complete release from the Eight Concepts, what further explanation could I possibly give?"
"Once the eight ideas have been destroyed, we touch nirvana. Nirvana is release from the Eight Concepts, and also from their opposites- impermanence, nonself, interdependent co-arising, emptiness, and the Middle Way. If we hold onto the Three Seals as fixed ideas, these ideas also have to be destroyed." --------------------------------------------------------------- "Look into the self and discover that it is made only of non-self elements. A human being is made up of only non-human elements. To protect humans, we have to protect the non-human elements - the air, the water, the forest, the river, the mountains, and the animals. Humans can survive only with the survival of other species. This is exactly the teaching of the Buddha, and also the teaching of deep ecology."
"When we look deeply into living beings, we find out that they are made of non-living-being elements. So-called inanimate things are alive also. Our notion about living being and inanimate things should be removed for us to touch reality."
"The fourth notion to be removed is life span. We think that we exist only from this point in time until this point in time, and we suffer because of that notion. If we look deeply, we will know that we have never been born and we will never die. A wave is born and dies, is high or lower, more or less beautiful. But you cannot apply these notions to water. When we see this our fear will suddenly vanish."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions. The practice is to remove these notions and touch the ultimate dimension - nirvana, God, the world of no-birth and no-death. Because of the notions we carry, we are unable to touch it, and we live in constant fear and suffering. When the wave lives her life as a wave deeply, she touches the dimension of water that is within her, and suddenly her fears and notions vanish, and she is truly happy."
"The Third Holy Truth is about relative well-being, which is impermanent. Your toothache is impermanent, but your non-toothache is also impermanent. When you practice deep Buddhism, you remove all these notions and touch the world of no-birth and no-death. With that insight, you look at birth, death, old-age, ups and downs, suffering, and happiness with the eyes of a sage, and you don't suffer anymore. You smile, no longer afraid."
"Whether birth and death are suffering depends on our insight. With insight, we can look at all these things and smile to them. We are not affected in the same way anymore. We ride on the wave of birth and death, and we are free from birth and death. This insight liberates us."
"All "formations" are impermanent. This sheet of paper is a physical formation formed by many elements. A rose, a mountain, and a cloud are formations. Your anger is a mental formation. My fingers and my liver are physiological formations."
"When we go beyond signs, we enter the world of no-fear and no-blame. We can see the flower, the water, and our child beyond time and space. We know that our ancestors are present in us, right here and right now. We see that the Buddha, Jesus, and all of our other spiritual ancestors have not died. The Buddha cannot be confined to 2,600 years ago. The flower cannot be limited to its brief manifestation. Everything manifests by means of signs. If we get caught by the signs, we become afraid of losing that particular manifestation."
"Signlessness is not just an idea. When we look deeply into our children, we see all the elements that have produced them. They are the way they are because our culture, economy, society, and we ourselves are the way we are. Many causes and conditions have contributed. When we know how to transform ourselves and our society, our children(formations) will transform also."
"The teachings of impermanence and nonself were offered by the Buddha as keys to unlock the door of reality. We have to train ourselves to look in a way that we know that when we touch one thing, we touch everything. We have to see that the one is in the all and the all is in the one. We touch not only the phenomenal aspects of reality but the ground of being. Things are impermanent and without self. They have to undergo birth and death. But if we touch them very deeply, we touch the ground of being that is free from birth and death, free from permanence and impermanence, self and nonself."
"What was your face before your parents were born?"
The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh
Edited by Sse (11/19/13 01:48 PM)
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