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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19154696 - 11/18/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

but part 2 to that statement is, just because one is 'unnatatched' to the self doesn't mean we still shouldn't 'try' to 'stay in our heart/be here now/inquire into the self' because this is just always a good thing to do. when you can do that AND see the self as yet another object, then i think that comes full circle to your OP


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19155297 - 11/18/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Truth has no path. Truth is living and, therefore, changing. It has no resting place, no form, no organized institution, no philosophy. You cannot express and be alive through static, put-together form, through stylized movement."

"Having totality means being capable of following "what is," because "what is" is constantly moving and constantly changing. If one is anchored to a particular view, one will not be able to follow the swift movement of "what is.""

"How can there be methods and systems to arrive at something that is living? To that which is static, fixed, dead, there can be a way, a definite path, but not to that which is living. Do not reduce reality to a static thing and then invent methods to reach it."

"When you are uninfluenced, when you die to the conditioning of classical responses, then you will know awareness and see things totally fresh, totally new."

"Awareness is without choice, without demand, without anxiety; in that state of mind, there is perception. Perception alone will resolve all our problems."

"Understanding requires not just a moment of perception, but a continuous awareness, a continuous state of inquiry without conclusion."

"Effort within the mind further limits the mind, because effort implies struggle towards a goal and when you have a goal, a purpose, an end in view, you have placed a limit on the mind."

"Thinking is not freedom- all thought is partial; it can never be total. Thought is the response of memory and memory is always partial, because memory is the result of experience. So, thought is the reaction of a mind conditioned by experience."

"Classical concentration that focuses on one thing and excludes all others, and awareness, which is total and excludes nothing, are states of the mind that can be understood only by objective, non-prejudiced observation."

"Concentration is a narrowing down of the mind. But we are concerned with the total process of living and to concentrate exclusively on any particular aspect of life, belittles life."

"Insight is realizing that one's original nature is not created."

"Because one does not want to be disturbed, to be made uncertain, he establishes a pattern of conduct, of thought, a pattern of relationships to man. He then becomes a slave to the pattern and takes the pattern to be the real thing."

"To express yourself in freedom, you must die to everything of yesterday. From the "old", you derive security; from the "new", you gain the flow.

"There is "what is" only when there is no comparing and to live with "what is" is to be peaceful."

"One can function freely and totally if he is "beyond system." The man who is really serious, with the urge to find out what truth is, has no style at all. He lives only in what is."

Tao Of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee


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"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/18/13 05:17 PM)


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19155671 - 11/18/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

good quotes, agree with those that I read :-)

no doubt, no worries, no frustration, no fear,  accept and appreciate

less is more :-)


personally I enjoy a walk in nature, sitting in nature, and trance music

all problems leave

trance is like meditation at work... time stops
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OV6Dm4yY7Do i.e.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19155698 - 11/18/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:hug::yinyang2::happyheart:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19157116 - 11/18/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Yeah the two seem mutually dependent. I strive for the sort of self you are describing but it really takes form in accepting the negative emotions surrounding death, or said another way, in accepting the interaction between my self and death. An ugly beast of an undertaking in many ways. But that is the only way I know of to then begin cherry picking what elements to cultivate for well being and what elements to cut off.




Yeah well said. :thumbup:

It is a tough route for sure. Something I've really taken away from this talk was the trap that no-self can produce that you'd mentioned. It can subtly be another way to deny our mortality by promoting permanence of something separate from death when no-self implies total impermanence. It can be used as a good, pragmatic shield though like you demonstrated.

Definitely something I'll be thinking about for a while. :sun:

Life be a lot of smoke and mirrors, heh.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19157149 - 11/18/13 10:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
uniqueness is an illusion
enjoy :-)
ram dass has a good viewpoint IMO

life is only absurd if you think youre unique

no self/soul in body is my base state, no uniquness, one with others I see
many people know this, we are all very similar inside, even old hippies, buddhists etc.
we just tend to forget... for some reason..




Most forms of uniqueness are a type of illusion from my experience.

But people like to feel unique to avoid the absurdity. Camus wrote a lot about this. We feel a need to escape the absurdity of life (eat, sleep, reproduce... repeat... die). So we have to try and create ourselves in a unique way to escape the absurdity.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19158676 - 11/19/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
less is more :-)


youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OV6Dm4yY7Do i.e.





this is also a lie, less is obviously always nothing objectively, which is how rights are abused and there is no exit for, and why powers are only by abusing others as a way of being always more

if you happen to see an intelligent less it doesn't mean that it became more only because it surprised you of not being dumb while it looks down, but it do mean that less is because of other abuse through powers of evil ways, so it is enslaving something right of forcing it to be its reverse, while it is doing it all but making it appear as someone else but less

anything is reversed and then forced to be possessed since not true
like the true thing is what more is always evil, so superiority should not be present and positive should always be freedom so not real

more mean subjective plus, that are denying else rights which exist so lessing objective perspectives rights, which is in killing rights, what is known being basically free superiority, in order to be more


what is not present is the plus of truth conception rights, so infinite values that exist through truth freedom so what is never present in all space as being facts what matter, or matters reasons
because no conscious would actualize objective rights value and keep its present fact out of fact truth, like the less that is nothing to, so act objectively as not being present for present true value

truth freedom conception is first what is always beyond everything facts superiority and all positive present realizations, without even being its source nor its reasons

so it proves how less is not more, but an abuse of rights ways known

willingly to appear nothing for what it is an own act so smart is true like consciously deciding the best moves, for best existence in truth perfection actualization as it is always absolutely right, so objective must always be through consciously too

what is acting in knowing being only its fact so the most superior present perspective, when present superiority is present constant, when anything perceived objectively being else is never present sense,

so that is clearly never the less reference as it doesn't even appear existing
that is how it is all invented how right people are appeared being less, it is not true it is all inventions forms of reversing the fact so killing the truth rights

but what appear being less is in fact the submission to evil powers will enslaving its conscious, as it cant be existing in truth freedom actualization

conscious is the relative fact of truth freedom knowledge being always beyond what comes first, conscious is relative freedom truth, so it shows how its submissions is meant from evil wills for cheapest and easiest ways to abuse constancy being objective as a weak fact, for powerful ends as superior exclusive present, so abusing its true individual fact too

so evil matters, what is only one objectively as constant existence so its own fact abuse,  but also  objective recognition being else to own fact, matter too.. while it is too less being so easily enslaved

like who is really submitted is who really consider the powers upon him as being else, so less right but relatively right while what is relative is nothing so any insisting force upon would be the constant meaning will identity




Edited by absols (11/19/13 09:14 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19159038 - 11/19/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Who we are changes, day by day--our cells are continually replaced, our thoughts pass like clouds in the wind, and even our personalities change over time from experience.

And yet, I am still ME, even if who I am has changed over my lifetime.  An independent, unchanging self does not exist--that much is obvious.  But no matter how many boards get ripped out and replaced from Theseus' ship, it's still Theseus' ship. ...No?  :wink:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19159405 - 11/19/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"The subject of knowledge cannot exist independently from the object of knowledge. To see is to see something. To hear is to hear something. To be angry is to be angry about something. Hope is to hope for something. Thinking is thinking about something. When the object of knowledge is not present, there can be no subject. Meditate and see the interbeing of the subject and the object."

"When you practice mindfulness of breathing, then the breathing is mind. When you practice mindfulness of the body, then your body is mind. When you practice mindfulness of objects outside of yourself, these objects are mind. Therefore, the contemplation of the interbeing of subject and object is also the contemplation of the mind. Every object of the mind is itself mind."

"Contemplation on interdependence is a deep looking into all dharmas in order to pierce through to their real nature, in order to see them as part of the great body of reality and in order to see that the great body of reality is indivisible. It cannot be cut into pieces with separate existences of their own."

"The object of our mind can be a mountain, a rose, the full moon, or the person standing in front of us. We believe these things exist outside of us as separate entities, but these objects of our perception are us. This includes our feeling. When we hate someone, we also hate ourself. The object of our mindfulness is actually the whole cosmos. Mindfulness is mindfulness of the body, feelings, perceptions, any of the mental formations, and all of the seeds in our consciousness."

"The Four Establishments of Mindfulness contain everything in the cosmos. Everything in the cosmos is the object of our perception, and as such, it does not exist only outside of us but also within us."

"If we look deeply at the bud on the tree, we will see its nature. It may be very small, but it is also like the earth, because the leaf in the bud will become part of the earth. If we see the truth of one thing in the cosmos, we see the nature of the cosmos. Because of our mindfulness, our deep looking, the nature of the cosmos will reveal itself. It is not a matter of imposing our ideas of the nature of the cosmos."

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19159559 - 11/19/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"To practice is to go beyond ideas, so you can arrive at the suchness of things. "No idea" is the path of non-conception. As long as there is an idea, there is no reality, no truth. "No idea" means no wrong idea, no wrong conception. It does not mean no mindfulness."

"Nirvana is the extinction of all notions. Birth is a notion. Death is a notion. Being is a notion. Nonbeing is a notion. In our daily lives, we have to deal with these relative realities. But if we touch life more deeply, reality will reveal itself in a different way."

"the Buddha said, "There is no birth and no death, no being and no nonbeing," and he offered us impermanence, nonself, interbeing and emptiness to discover the true nature of reality."

"Nirvana means extinction, above all the extinction of ideas-the idea of birth and death, existence and nonexistence, coming and going, self and other, one and many. All these ideas cause us to suffer. We are afraid of death because ignorance gives us an illusory idea about what death is. We are disturbed by the idea of existence and nonexistence because we have not understood the true nature of impermanence and nonself."

In Buddhism we talk about the Eight concepts: birth, death, permanence, dissolution, coming, going, one, and many. The practice to end attachment to these eight ideas is called the Eight No's of the Middle Way- no birth and no death, no permanence, no dissolution, no coming, and no going, no one and no many."

In the thirteenth century in Vietnam, someone asked Master Tue Trung a question following a dharma talk, and he replied, "Having offered complete release from the Eight Concepts, what further explanation could I possibly give?"

"Once the eight ideas have been destroyed, we touch nirvana. Nirvana is release from the Eight Concepts, and also from their opposites- impermanence, nonself, interdependent co-arising, emptiness, and the Middle Way. If we hold onto the Three Seals as fixed ideas, these ideas also have to be destroyed."
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Look into the self and discover that it is made only of non-self elements. A human being is made up of only non-human elements. To protect humans, we have to protect the non-human elements - the air, the water, the forest, the river, the mountains, and the animals. Humans can survive only with the survival of other species. This is exactly the teaching of the Buddha, and also the teaching of deep ecology."

"When we look deeply into living beings, we find out that they are made of non-living-being elements. So-called inanimate things are alive also. Our notion about living being and inanimate things should be removed for us to touch reality."

"The fourth notion to be removed is life span. We think that we exist only from this point in time until this point in time, and we suffer because of that notion. If we look deeply, we will know that we have never been born and we will never die. A wave is born and dies, is high or lower, more or less beautiful. But you cannot apply these notions to water. When we see this our fear will suddenly vanish."

"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions. The practice is to remove these notions and touch the ultimate dimension - nirvana, God, the world of no-birth and no-death. Because of the notions we carry, we are unable to touch it, and we live in constant fear and suffering. When the wave lives her life as a wave deeply, she touches the dimension of water that is within her, and suddenly her fears and notions vanish, and she is truly happy."

"The Third Holy Truth is about relative well-being, which is impermanent. Your toothache is impermanent, but your non-toothache is also impermanent. When you practice deep Buddhism, you remove all these notions and touch the world of no-birth and no-death. With that insight, you look at birth, death, old-age, ups and downs, suffering, and happiness with the eyes of a sage, and you don't suffer anymore. You smile, no longer afraid."

"Whether birth and death are suffering depends on our insight. With insight, we can look at all these things and smile to them. We are not affected in the same way anymore. We ride on the wave of birth and death, and we are free from birth and death. This insight liberates us."

"All "formations" are impermanent. This sheet of paper is a physical formation formed by many elements. A rose, a mountain, and a cloud are formations. Your anger is a mental formation. My fingers and my liver are physiological formations."

"When we go beyond signs, we enter the world of no-fear and no-blame. We can see the flower, the water, and our child beyond time and space. We know that our ancestors are present in us, right here and right now. We see that the Buddha, Jesus, and all of our other spiritual ancestors have not died. The Buddha cannot be confined to 2,600 years ago. The flower cannot be limited to its brief manifestation. Everything manifests by means of signs. If we get caught by the signs, we become afraid of losing that particular manifestation."

"Signlessness is not just an idea. When we look deeply into our children, we see all the elements that have produced them. They are the way they are because our culture, economy, society, and we ourselves are the way we are. Many causes and conditions have contributed. When we know how to transform ourselves and our society, our children(formations) will transform also."

"The teachings of impermanence and nonself were offered by the Buddha as keys to unlock the door of reality. We have to train ourselves to look in a way that we know that when we touch one thing, we touch everything. We have to see that the one is in the all and the all is in the one. We touch not only the phenomenal aspects of reality but the ground of being. Things are impermanent and without self. They have to undergo birth and death. But if we touch them very deeply, we touch the ground of being that is free from birth and death, free from permanence and impermanence, self and nonself."

"What was your face before your parents were born?"

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh


Edited by Sse (11/19/13 01:48 PM)


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