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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19152320 - 11/17/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I think I liked the OP because it gets down to the pragmatics of living with death looming. Viewing it instead as a loss of self can be highly enabling. And here's why I say that. Every time we are faced with a situation that threatens our identity we are faced with that good ole primal fear. Whether the identity is tied up with the physical body or tied up with a mental abstraction. Same, same. And although death seems inevitable, dealing with identification is another story. Some degree of identification is necessary for survival but there is a lot of wiggle room. So much of what leads to defensiveness is wholly unnecessary and often a large waste of energy/resources.




I don't see how it's more or less enabling. What does it mean to view it as a loss a self to be highly enabling enabling? I think it's the same thing. It's still, regardless of what we call it, that bone gripping existential terror. I read the rest of your post, but I still don't think that calling it the fear of no-self makes anything any better.

I'd argue that identification with the body is wholly necessary, both mentally and physically. It's what allows us to make sense of what's going on around us.  I don't think calling it the fear of no-self changes the identification that much, it just pin points it a little more. Death and no-self, to me, are really two ways of saying the same thing. They imply each other.

Quote:

Kickle said:
Trying to do battle with death is a guaranteed loss
Whereas wise choices in identification can be liberating
May as well use a shield which enables :shrug:




Yeah, pretty much. The way I see it, the solution to denying and repressing our mortality/impermanence is to construct a fixed identity (an attempt at permanence). I guess after White Beard's comment, I don't see how they're different at all. I guess what confuses me though, is, what shields are you talking about? :lol: No matter what is used, they're all shields. They're attempts to fix ourselves in a place and say that we know something. (An attempt at some form of permanence)


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19152329 - 11/17/13 11:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have zero control over death but some control over my self. So if I see my fear relating to death, it is hopeless because I cannot control this. If I see my fear relating to loss of myself, I can alter myself to minimize losses. I can pragmatically approach the problem rather than being helpless.

I don't think they are the same. I think that viewing it as a fear of no-self is a shield against death anxiety rather than death anxiety itself. A conceptualization of the raw fear which provides a means to approach the issue.

Edit: I agree with you that it is all shields.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Edited by Kickle (11/17/13 11:07 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19152375 - 11/17/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I see now what you're saying. It's used a another shield.

I guess, personally, I don't even think we have control over our egos or self. It's still the same helpless game. I just think that the self "is" because we're biologically programmed to develop a self. We all seem to feel like there's a "me" inside of me. And while I agree that no-self is a conceptualization of a raw fear (just like death anxiety is), I don't think it's off or wrong. It's just identifying what's going on.

If these biological bodies didn't have a self, then there wouldn't be any issue or problem. But it's not the case, and we do have a self. I personally don't think that means we can really get rid of a self, but I think it's still the heart of the same matter. The fear that "I" will end.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19152393 - 11/17/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah no total control over self. But I can think of several things I have linked my sense of self in with unnecessarily and since have become wise to such actions in advance. That is some control IMO.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19152424 - 11/17/13 11:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

By that, sure, I could agree that there's some form of self control.

But just because you linked somethings with your sense of self, would that mean that really are or aren't linked to your sense of self?

I just thought of a way to summarize what I'm trying to say. We seem to be biological built to try, at all costs, to make ourselves permanent and to avoid our death. This is the attempt of a biological organism to do that, and the self allows us to try and do that. If the self isn't real, and there is no-self, then there's nothing that could be done to let ourselves fill that existential void to try and make ourselves permanent. Hence, no-self and death invoke the same fear and the same attempts to overcome these fears. No matter what, it's still invoking the same shields to try and ward this off, and to make ourselves permanent in one form or another.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19152497 - 11/17/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

I really like what you are saying and agree.
I will try to summarize as well my relation to this thread.


As in my first post, I find it absurd to consider where we find ourselves. However, if one does find themselves in this position, it seems best to work with the issue pragmatically. And I see no-self as perhaps the most direct yet still  potentially pragmatic explanation. I view it somewhat through the Buddhist lens. There is loads of suffering here. And if there were anything at all subjectively that is really important, it is lessening that suffering. And so one needs to approach it sensibly, pragmatically, and wisely. To me this necessitates a shield which allows active engagement of the core problem as it relates to subjective suffering. So as to be a warrior who is actively gaining ground on the enemy while behind their shield rather than one who is just hiding out in a fortress hoping the enemy will  forget about them.

Perhaps it is simply youth which makes me want to at least attempt to gain some ground. But the reason is of little importance if gains are seen regarding personal suffering. And in my case I have seen quite significant changes.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19152573 - 11/18/13 12:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
As in my first post, I find it absurd to consider where we find ourselves. However, if one does find themselves in this position, it seems best to work with the issue pragmatically. And I see no-self as perhaps the most direct yet still  potentially pragmatic explanation. I view it somewhat through the Buddhist lens. There is loads of suffering here. And if there were anything at all subjectively that is really important, it is lessening that suffering. And so one needs to approach it sensibly, pragmatically, and wisely. To me this necessitates a shield which allows active engagement of the core problem as it relates to subjective suffering. So as to be a warrior who is actively gaining ground on the enemy while behind their shield rather than one who is just hiding out in a fortress hoping the enemy will  forget about them.

Perhaps it is simply youth which makes me want to at least attempt to gain some ground. But the reason is of little importance if gains are seen regarding personal suffering. And in my case I have seen quite significant changes.




I couldn't agree more with your first line. Life seems to be inherently absurd from a human stand point.

How does identifying with no-self help though? To me, this is the fear that we're trying to ward off. Is it identifying with the "self of no-self" as a shield to help navigate? At least in relation to Buddhist teachings, I just see no-self as a statement of the nature of reality.

I, similarly, take a Buddhist-like lens. (I started going to a temple to ward off my anxieties. :lol:) I feel like we can lessen our suffering and the suffering of others by recognizing that we're trying to avoid suffering (our anxieties and worries) and that we're trying to constantly cling to something stable (like people, or belief systems such as Buddhism). Like you said, even though it's a shield, it still allows us to get at the the core of the problem of suffering.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19153339 - 11/18/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think it likely helps for the same reason that death can be seen as something to look forward to. A release. And it can be tailored to individual stability in each moment. As much or as little identity can come into play as allowed emotionally. Or at least that has been my experience. While I may intellectually understand the absence of any inherent self, the experience is more piecemeal. Say as an emotional link to this event here causing a personal connection which can be worked with - a small and manageable release - as opposed to waiting for death to wipe the whole slate clean.

We want permanence but the active attempts at creating it do not often benefit us. IMO the release of these is the reason to enter into such examinations in the first place. To let needless burdens go. The more comfortably this can be done the better if you ask me.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19153390 - 11/18/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between you and 72:thumbup: 

I think you both understand our human condition very well. Which is also (imo) very rare. :satansmoking:


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19153445 - 11/18/13 10:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I couldn't agree more with your first line. Life seems to be inherently absurd from a human stand point.

How does identifying with no-self help though? To me, this is the fear that we're trying to ward off. Is it identifying with the "self of no-self" as a shield to help navigate? At least in relation to Buddhist teachings, I just see no-self as a statement of the nature of reality.

uniqueness is an illusion
enjoy :-)
ram dass has a good viewpoint IMO

life is only absurd if you think youre unique

no self/soul in body is my base state, no uniquness, one with others I see
many people know this, we are all very similar inside, even old hippies, buddhists etc.
we just tend to forget... for some reason..


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Icelander]
    #19153471 - 11/18/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchange between you and 72:thumbup: 

I think you both understand our human condition very well. Which is also (imo) very rare. :satansmoking:




The gift and burden of introspective intelligence :smirk:


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19153541 - 11/18/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

what I see from your conversation here is that exclusive mean of own-self, it is like you wont care for an objective matter, for what it must be about oneself.. as if you mean to use objective thinking ways to be an answer for you.. and it is not a problem for you to mean being the answer for all where you would feel getting a point

we are different, In what I don't sense the issue like you

I am saying this from what I see what you mean now, you live in the concept of being so you are not real to yourselves..that is why actually you don't know or you are not sure actually how death can bother you

I live the issue from life, so totally objectively by being present with everything as they are

and I am telling you, the problem is not you, death in life is from being killed.. that is why you are right in not identifying yourselves with the issue, like knowing that you are not concerned by death or self being

it is true what animals fear death more then humans, while they are selfless hundred percent, and live objectively like things, but they do fear the aggressors ends they see

being killed is huge issue because of truth.. we are not supposed to be killed even as things

this is what bother the thought where it is hard to find a concept that could justify death, even if our freedom accept it fully

truth is positive and when existence is about true realities, and when any concept of being is only through best ends, then the mean of getting back or becoming negative, is about being wrong certainty, in the objective sense of all existence being wrong and not true nor right

maybe you identify yourselves with the idea of enjoying created life, so you deal with death in knowing how you mean it right, like what you enjoy being for a while in dreaming about something to do and then die ...
this is why maybe the reference of anything is personal to you, as it depends on your dream while everything else must be not true

maybe you know where the whole life is fake
but I know where the whole existence is true

maybe it is the fight between life and existence, completely two different thing

life depends on positive confusions with every other will around as the objective thing

existence depends on facts constancy generating a plus energy out of it as the reason of free different realities beings the matter of existence fact

that is why also being is individually, the free positive mean reality out of the same fact

but when the fact is false through creators, then life prevail over true existence, even though life is about killing else as the way of free positive self reality

but existence is true where truth exist, which has nothing to do with our beings physically and mentally

and it seems that truth freedom is against creations at some points far away..that can be perceived only beyond absolute facts of all life

but anyway, this confirm how anyone is doing the best possible, by caring first about himself positive reasons it knows being for
as it seems that we are alone really, those fighting are abusing us from both sides and don't mean to give us our beings to us and do their things life and existence with their own beings where they are


Edited by absols (11/18/13 11:11 AM)


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19153616 - 11/18/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What I understand about how existence works is what I experience first hand. I take the simple path because I am a simpleton.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19153653 - 11/18/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
We want permanence but the active attempts at creating it do not often benefit us. IMO the release of these is the reason to enter into such examinations in the first place. To let needless burdens go. The more comfortably this can be done the better if you ask me.




I see what you're saying now. :smile: (or at least I think) It's a shield that can help one. It can be really useful then.

Something that I just can't get over though is along the lines of this:

Quote:

I think it likely helps for the same reason that death can be seen as something to look forward to. A release.




I don't think death is something to look forward to because it's "good." Even re-framing it like this doesn't change the nature of it. The same goes for the opposite of it, which would be, shying away from it because it's "bad." It's neither good nor bad -- it just is. Death just is. It's only in relation to an organism who can think about it abstractly, that has a self to pass judgement on it. Death isn't a problem, it's just a self that creates a problem. If there was no self, wouldn't there be no problem?

Even the word that I used in that context, "reframing," show how it's something being able to change. It's a self that's changing it. And now I see what you're talking about with being able to feel like one has some control over the situation as opposed to feeling helpless about it.

So now my mind's changing a bit. Maybe we do have some form of control over the situation? Maybe we can create a self that can accept the helpless nature of it while at the same time coming to terms with it.

Death is a lost battle -- that just seems to be a fact of nature. We're going to die. But maybe we can, not "overcome" death because that implies going beyond it, but integrate it fully without judgement?

I still whole heatedly think that a self is needed in order for death to be a problem to start with.

EDIT: Something I'm trying to get at is that death and a self seem so intertwined that they're hard to separate. :sad:


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Edited by r72rock (11/18/13 11:18 AM)


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19153684 - 11/18/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What I understand about how existence works is what I experience first hand. I take the simple path because I am a simpleton.




the thing is what existence don't work, existence in concept is not relative, it is about true reality, this is what the word exist mean

that is why existence is free different wills, like the fact of existing would invent what to do relatively, the fact of existing wont do itself it would be absurd .. nor of course doing what is against itself which would be absurd too

communication with positive else seem something to do relatively but it is shown not being right .. the idea of exclusive love is also meant .. but also shown being not true.. this is I think a big issue of everything true existence as it doesn't have an answer so evil is stronger

this is why my guess is what existence sense is for the destruction of evil first, then existence possible facts to do would be more clear according to true existence beings and not conceived when evil is also there

for now truth suffer of giving life to its contradiction, because truth wont invent something and while its fact must stay free constancy results which happen alone, meanwhile evil is getting there before

there cant be but truth in freedom ways for sure, only truth is in nothing the exclusive positive source, as superior fact clarity value



Edited by absols (11/18/13 11:35 AM)


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19153737 - 11/18/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well like I said what I understand is what I experience. And I don't experience any true reality so I guess for me there is no existence to speak of. My experience is relative and changing.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19153787 - 11/18/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah the two seem mutually dependent. I strive for the sort of self you are describing but it really takes form in accepting the negative emotions surrounding death, or said another way, in accepting the interaction between my self and death. An ugly beast of an undertaking in many ways. But that is the only way I know of to then begin cherry picking what elements to cultivate for well being and what elements to cut off.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19154358 - 11/18/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

death is not a concept to create a self for, death is through many different realities forcing its negative constant nature till death

dealing with death is dealing with pain, physically and morally when it is always what aggressions cause, whether of a very serious disease or living more powerful conscious that can destroy another by forcing it to die and gets bigger while gaining powers of that, it is too easy to invent hating others from loving own self to be in power

any condition of being is forced to be by accepting others conditions able to kill it, like any man can easily kill a woman, physically and mentally by condition of birth, and there is nothing to do about it, whatever the particular case of woman being intelligent and the man being inferior in all means, metaphysically she must fear and he can force

it has nothing to do with truth, at all, while all to do with life inventions of existence through same free wills to profit from possible free pretenses for granted

the issue is also what truth don't care, i cant understand how such obvious lies can be called being for truth, existence is a value not because of free wills, there are free wills for true existing value out of nothing, how did it became the reverse prove the opportunism at the head of it 

another big lie, is what says that truth whether free or existing is only at one point, so only one that justify all others to be liars... it is not true at all
what is true is obviously what actualize objective superiority to else meaning its freedom randomly out of it for any other random reason or not.. but fast opportunism are after any right move or mean to get everything easily by enslaving others to do the hard thing and enjoying the sense of freedom got of realized knowledge as power over superiority of truth


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19154648 - 11/18/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.





right on man...whether you feel yourself to be in a manifest or unmanifest state, if one is unattached to the self, then yes that removes virtually all obligatory effort and you can just accept the inevitability of death (of the body...) to me that is a very freeing thought.


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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Kickle]
    #19154683 - 11/18/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Well like I said what I understand is what I experience. And I don't experience any true reality so I guess for me there is no existence to speak of. My experience is relative and changing.




the idea of true reality, is seen when the conscious enjoy to know true things sources... then it becomes clear how for a thing to be a fact it must be out of any causality chain, otherwise it cant be a whole objective independent thing, so it means that positive thing is out of free superiority so nothing to all, then it becomes like a hobby to search in anything even a thought what freedom value actualize the existence of a free point and what positive source is objectively constantly in that point fact alone, and realize a sense of too in what own self could relatively agree with fact and in what terms to realize it too... this is just the beginning out of human being random mind

what is more hard to explain is the process of realizing being the positive source of any superior point out of comparing different present realities of things, this is how individuals really exist by doing a plus to a standard they realize as objective being

it is a different way of being i mean that should be justified fully being as valuable as yours for example
meaning your reactions for being constant success, is a way that could be right you are the one that knows it, as my way is also right for me and others, we are not positive for being constant but we are positive for superiority to be real, like people who are more true, cant invent being positive, it must be true first

again it is not a state of mind, it is more about freedom rights which should not be discussed when they are assumed by the free themselves

what is to discuss is what is wrong, how to deal with what is clearly known being wrong

someone like you who would mean itself being well, wont care about being wrong in the objective sense, since wrong is always else, one is always right to itself, which is normal

so people that are more true, then without particular positive will, would care about wrong a lot, as they would react negatively to wrong objective things, since they don't have positive wills so they don't have personal negative reactions towards any else

this is also the issue of their slavery because they are more true, how things in depth are forced for creations of being superior, to suffer a lot of negativity that has nothing to do with while enslaved to give positive that way

there is a real issue, and i don't understand how someone is alone to mean such infinite facts happening together on living rights


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