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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19137777 - 11/14/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing.






I actually came here to post this because this thought crossed my mind today. :lol:

I think when we look into it, we fear death because we fear the loss of a self. They aren't any different. Death implies the loss of "me." And no-self implies the loss of "me." I think they're really the same thing.

I would say though that one could transfer the fear of losing the self, or the idea of there being no self, to it being a fear of death. The fear of death actual puts the problem in a more abstract, far away problem, rather than dealing with the idea of there being no self now and the idea that "I" do not exist. It's a defense mechanism that the self may use to say that the problem isn't that a self (itself) exists or that it's its fictitious nature that creates the problem, but that this death and the finitude of the self in the future is the problem. It could just be more mental games that the self plays to try and preserve itself. :shrug: In the end, they both star this idea of "the end of oneself" and impermanence. Death is in relation to a self. Without a self to write a narrative in our heads to make sense of things, we wouldn't have these fears or anxieties.

I think it's in the beginning of the movie Flight from Death, where the narrator talks about life in the sense of being thrown into the world, to be given a name, to become a person, only to die in the end, and this is what creates the human problem. While there's something right minded about that, it does make the assumption that there is a self that was thrown into life, given a name, to form a personality, and then to die -- but if we had no self that felt thrown into life, didn't form a personality, and didn't have a judgement on death, what would the problem be? The problem's only in relation to a subject. I don't think the assumption is wrong, (because we do feel like there is a "me" inside of ourselves) but I think the premise that death is the problem is wrong. I don't think that means that this self isn't a problem, on the contrary, I think it's the source of all the problems. Death just is -- it's the formation of a self that creates an issue with relation to itself and death that makes the problem. The self is what turns it into a problem, puts judgement onto this "problem", and says that we can't and don't want to die. Without a self, the problem isn't. I'm not trying to downplay Becker's work, I'm just saying that his entire philosophy hinges on this idea of a self, and I feel like Becker could have expanded on it more. The problem's still there, I just think it's a little bit deeper than death. It's death in relation to something.

The other questions that you brought up are intriguing for sure. I'm not sure if experience could exist without a self. I, again, look at animals and think about how they experience life. They don't have this story of themselves, and therefore, they don't have these anxieties that humans have. At the same time though, this anxiety that humans have to preserve the self, has lead us to great things -- great works of art, great advancements in medical science... So I think a question could be, do we want to get rid of the self? We need these fictitious self to operate in our idea of a society. It's why we're human.

As for Enlightenment, I guess I personally feel that glimpses of it can be seen, but I don't believe it can be sustained. The self is really wired into us, culturally and biologically. I guess I feel like while the self creates problems, the self also has a great side to it. It allows me to love and feel, and it's what allows me to be human. When I think about it more, maybe it's because I'm so attached to it, but I wouldn't want to totally have no ego/self, because then I would just be this emotional rock that doesn't feel a thing. I wouldn't want to be like that when a loved one dies; I loved them, they shaped me (this fictitious self) into what it is today, and I'd want to show that through my ego that I did care for them and that I will miss them. The ego/self is the one that does all of this, but I don't know if we can get rid of it fully to be honest. We just may be hardwired to harbor a self -- but I still think that it's this idea of the self that creates the problems. Without the subject, there wouldn't be any problems. We can't help but create problems; yet we maybe hopelessly stuck with them. :undecided:

In an objective sense, there's no problem with death, it's only the self's wish for it not to be. There has to be a subject which objects to death. It's a problem of the ego and the self wanting it to be a different way than it is. At the same time though, I tend to be okay with the trade because the illusion can be fun (as well as extremely painful at times). :sun:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: r72rock]
    #19139464 - 11/15/13 01:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

self is not an illusion it is the only present thing.. I think that it is very wrong how you come to despise yourselves..how could you then see anything or consider any value when you reject yourself value

gods including nature is cruel because of what they must mean themselves... they wont do anything for nothing, it is the power of willing that justify everything life through gods...

you are seeing self as an issue because it is alone and weak and also mortal for sure ... but again we are killed and animals fear a lot more then humans while they are never any self, but only because of death being a killer always ...

you don't want to stand for yourself pains and issues.. this is logical, since it wont change the negative objective fact, on the contrary, facing it when it is the fact would makes it more real
so it seems better to play the game like everyone else and ignore the reality sense ..wishing that maybe the end would be ok for own self ..

in a more metaphysical note, self force the sense of being finite so not true, first because of else existence, the fact when others exist too objectively on the same dimension of being, the being cannot move freely for what it is not the others so it cant move through realizing what is present according to him, to be free positively out of that objective realization ..

but there is a way to stay free out of everything right, is through superiority sense, by conceiving objective perspective on others of its possible positive end value while meaning to realize that value whether it is here or not

what is realized over what is there is all to true existence facts, so the self stay free right, but no one do that for what everyone mean to get superior support or positive sense from others and not themselves ..

the universe or existence is not a source..on the contrary, it needs a lot more then anyone of us .. there is nothing to expect from

truth by definition is not a source, truth is a fact that cannot change, so anyone is the hope of positive corrections to what facts realities generate of bad..

the idea is what the self is the freedom value, what is light because it can change and move consciously out of what is wrong or not positive end, but also it can do the right thing when others wont, so could be related to all superior freedom dimensions which is out of positive truth fact more then anything existence, the positive source

reality so existence is the highest value of anything, it exists because infinite superiority led to ... but also that is why existence as an objective fact loose its value continuously .. the thing is to keep it up right by conceiving objective superiority right so to be through abstract superior dimension continuously ...
the fact that self being is always nothing to all and barely something real, gives it the character of infinite in fact, when the self stays true

dying is not a problem for anyone, on the contrary, everyone knows how it gets tired in being and wish constantly to stop being and not being forced to exist .. the need in beings constant are huge especially through all kind of abuses ... so the fear cant be about death
and if the mean is to stay in being positive will, then it cant be about fearing when it is about something plus to get or to want...

again, we are alone because in truth, so anything is different reality in same conception of what is right, while any is also free of what everything is also right at a relative point so objective freedom is the constant existence of plus ... while all that is happening on a relative dimension, but true relativity is like absolute one when truth is the reason of absolutes fact

so we are alone ultimately, but actually we are forced to be out of others realities and wills.. which is obviously abused ..
that is why the relational point of conscious is the issue to resolve by being conscious now

it is clear how there is no communication between one and another at all.. it is all whether through life so positive common will, or through dealing with others through their needs or weakness of others .. like gods mean their need to worship them as to give them ourselves value in being for their free life

ultimately we are ourselves only, because what is present must be true so consciously held, as what is first is always the conscious when only truth exist.. so constant objective realizations and independence in filling our needs through the same conception of possible ways, is the reason of existence to also invent a right resolution out of all truth conceptions, for how to deal with plural presence, when each reality is an individual conscious free source constantly for ever .. what is the constant right way of the fact including different beings?? where that right can head or lead to ? since any existence right{freedom} starts from its positive ends


Edited by absols (11/15/13 02:11 AM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19140334 - 11/15/13 10:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

9.  the attribution to another person or object the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself.

you are projecting your views on to me and the rest of the world

I haven't read anything but the first sentence but silence is where its at imo the rest is nonsense, including my own nonsense.

and the buddha's nonsense

everyones nonsense

except science but still nonsense prevails


Edited by Sse (11/15/13 10:21 AM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19140516 - 11/15/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you don't exist but to yourself, especially on the net where there is no reality but of subjects words individually realized

so objectively there cant be another for any projection to do

but if you are attacking others intent, this what reveal yourself offensive will 

and sciences miss is never present in the objective sense of being a reason of anything, or what could matter


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19144802 - 11/16/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

tbh its painful to try to read/make sense of your word structure. Maybe I have misconstrued your message... I haven't yet delved into your recent writings.


"you are forcing the reality that others don't matter to you"

"this question shows the depth of wrong, you are consciously rejecting what you know for sure, which is not knowing anything
for the fanciful belief that you are everything too so you can enjoy talking about all as it pleases you ,,"

"you believe that you are like all... this is wrong "

"it is clear that your ways are consciously through projecting yourself in anything as being everything the same"

"it is your choice to cultivate christian beliefs, like you are insisting that yourself existence is about everything existence the same, that all opposites are one same created life  "

"still the way you mean to force the equality between right and wrong"

"here again you show how your mind is only about you, how you are blind to anything else then you "

stuff like this makes me feel you are projecting your views onto me... filling in the blanks with your subjectivity.

But I'm sure I'm losing a lot due to the way much of what you say is constructed... it just doesn't make much sense to me. This discussion and confusion has been a reminder for me that we "construct" our world with our thoughts/conceptions/labels. In simplicity/objectivity it is without these conceptions... raw existence. Perhaps if I wasn't raised constantly being told this is negative this is positive, these people are superior then I wouldn't have had such conditioned reason to look down on people, or to feel inferior or to dwell in a state that I felt is negative and should be met with a negative reaction.

Many negative states can be faced with just as much positivity as the conditioned positives but I wasn't conditioned to face them in that way.... now I am conditioning myself to lose all of that because subjectivity swells up and flashes of conceptualization help themselves and build my perceptions/perspectives. So by constantly bringing myself back to equanimity and facing my conditions with an even stance I can slowly resolve the unwholesome reactions and face all with love and learn to dwell happily in whatever life has in store.

If I keep going around saying this is most positive this is the superior way... then for myself personally I am reminded of and am unconsciously perpetuating these stereotypes. Instead I choose not to continue these thought processes. For me they perpetuate polarity when reality is non-dual.

"All these [practitioners] stray from the point because they polarize the non-dual reality,
And since they fail to unify [these extremes] in non-duality,
they do not attain Buddhahood.
Thus, all of those beings continue to roam in cyclic existence,
Because they persistently engage in [forms of] renunciation,
And in acts of rejection and acceptance with regard to their own minds,
Where [in reality] cyclic existence and nirvana are inseparable"

Maybe one day if enlightenment occurs I can go about participating in subjectivity without being conditioned in such a way... for now training wheels :smile:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (11/16/13 11:09 AM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19144889 - 11/16/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you keep meaning yourself, what you mean to do in life and how to justify yourself .. you have no respect for objective rights
you cant but value individuals while at the same time denying subjects value of humans in truth

an individual is nothing.. you are not all
and the majority is only the number of individuals ...


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145033 - 11/16/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

yes there is no concrete self, how I relate today is not how I related a year ago or yesterday or tomorrow or five minutes from now... ever flowing process and conditioned since birth conditioned before birth continue to be conditioned. In reality I am nothing... just a bunch of interdependent conglomerations, into what you see speaking before you today.

I'm not sure what you mean by objective rights.

denying subjects value of humans in truth? I'm not denying anyone or anything. For myself I am not perpetuating it. It may be true with the subjective majority but objectively there is no right or wrong or positive or negative or superior/inferior.

the only person who said I was all was your implications and I don't know what context you are applying... I guess you took that from the word equanimity. I'm not sure. Interdependency is undeniable, you effect one strand of the web all strands will be effected. Everything that is came to be because everything else is exactly where it is. Though I think where there is perceptions there are deceptions so I just try to dwell in the mystery... leaving it unknown, unfigured out... because it would be a delusion to say I know.

The truth:



everything thought and conceptualized is serving a degree of delusion.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145059 - 11/16/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

more power to you if you think you've figured it out and have the truth conceptualized in the palm of you hand... much of it has served me in finding my one pointedness but now that I am able to sustain that one-pointedness the less I find I need those reminders and need to be told the right/wrong way. All that matters for me is establishing equanimity and sustaining it. The rest will unfold, there is nothing else to do or seek imo.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19145099 - 11/16/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

keep the power it is all wrong, as you might confuse yourself with your god powers

and you keep meaning to support contradictions

there cant be equality when wrong and right are the same thing as superior and inferior.. on the contrary the more you believe that edges do not exist the more freedom is negative, so all would be real gaps opposite

equality exist only because edges are true, so everything is positively through one way only which is the way of all existing things


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145117 - 11/16/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I never said they don't exist but it is a mental game that has been perpetuated, for good reason I'm sure.

I say within my own created self I choose not to perpetuate them. I've explained how I view equanimity already and how I use it and why I use it. Its to unify the extremes because they are littered with subjectivity generation to generation.

I agree everything can be positive through objectivity but that's only because life has been polarized. In actuality positive is positive and negative is positive they cancel themselves out; objectively everything just is


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19145142 - 11/16/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

that is your will, because you mean to benefit yourself

i am being subjective you will say .. NO it is obvious how you don't enjoy meaning others rights
and that is what makes you believe that selves do not exist, which is not only absurd with the presence of everyone else, but also cruel really

objective is the fact present which is not the truth, so no objective is not the positive anyhow
while it is obvious what the fact of existence is only negative inferiority in all ways.. what objectivity are you seen positive mrs..??


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145166 - 11/16/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

" If there is no self, then there is no sense of death."
-this be true.

"This seems to make sense. Now I wonder, can experience exist without a self, or is a self needed to process the data? Is having no self any different from death? Deep sleep doesn't seem to be an experience to me. Perhaps the original question doesn't matter- if they are ultimately the same thing."
-It may not be an expereance to you, an ego, but how can even you expereance something that is not?  I think you will still expereance, but one would not care about the aspect of positivity and negativity no more...

"I think if experience can exist without a self, then enlightenment can exist."
-this is likely.

"This is wrong"
-this is sending a denial. All is relative, so one cannot know anything; thus saying someone else is wrong or right for that matter serves no purpose other than sending a positive or negative energy.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145172 - 11/16/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Right my will to benefit myself and others.

Right it would take a subjective thought/experience to say that objectivity is positive.

no concrete, solid, eternal self. We are constantly changing and the self you know as yourself is because of the conditioning experienced throughout life. There is no self, only a process that continues to be conditioned.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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OfflineSse
Saṃsāra

Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
Loc: Interdependent Co-arising
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145205 - 11/16/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have a feeling your thoughts on all and self are different then mine due to the data/encounters you've received.

regardless

Leave everything as it is in fundamental simplicity
and clarity will arise by itself.
Only by doing nothing will you do all there is to be done....


off to start my day :sun:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19145760 - 11/16/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it is incredible how hateful you are to anyone else

everybody miss is alone handling his life, while you obviously are living by receiving data and encounters...enough said about your love to enslave others

I will never get how people can claim such things as if they are illuminated from being up and not the only present willing mouth there..
like if you are conditioned to believe certain things you would die through without ever seeing it, to even think the possibility to say it ...

while you are clearly seen being the same always meaning to point others as being slaves for conditions of your equality my arse

obviously all the nothing you do didn't serve the least of you to appear meaning well

you have it all wrong, freedom is superiority so positive source which is why it is everything.. so the nothing you claim being is to what should never mean a thing

but don't worry, it is obvious how at the end there going to be two different existence, the nothing and less / the something and everything

and no there is no change ever, while you clearly demonstrate it by keeping repeating the same positive will
but also for true selves so real depth of free states, superior sense is to constant absolute fact first so always the same while more positively free

so bye-bye from now, since all between us is already clear



Edited by absols (11/16/13 03:42 PM)


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19145871 - 11/16/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

experience without being free is about positive sense

that is why the positive nature seem to be transferred into things to get instead of being free as a positive source, so positively existing


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19149166 - 11/17/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's all relative

I'm pretty confused by your assessment but to each their own... we are creating our world with our thoughts.

I feel like I was matching your intensity but that could be delusion on my part as well.

What things do I claim that make you think these things? Obviously my conceptualization is relative to my experience... I wouldn't expect a complete understanding from another.

Regardless its all created nonsense anyhow. The objective truth is without elaboration... everything else seems to have risen from our means of surviving in this world and relating to our experience based on our past experiences... shuffled over from generation to generation. To the point now where much of it is unnecessary for myself personally. Unification and abolishment of the internal extremes is my path for my own well being... the path is personal, life is complicated. I cultivate equanimity because it helps me a long the path to silence... where nothing can be misconstrued or deluded. Where objective truth awaits.


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Sse]
    #19149504 - 11/17/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you are the objective truth.. objectively you cannot be but true...which again prove how your mean is to take advantage of truth as if you can be over the truth or a physical lie..which is absurd

when truth is the fact then any objective conscious is individually the object reality freely as a matter of fact..

the truth is never an object it is the perspective that is objective but as relative to truth fact

and that is why equality don't exist, honey
but you can be all equal to yourself as an absolute thing out of everything and everyone else since you are a free present individual reality as a matter of fact alone relatively true too


Edited by absols (11/17/13 12:24 PM)


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OfflineSse
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: absols]
    #19149854 - 11/17/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

objectively true as in "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions" represented by emptiness/void/signlessness but I'm not sure if it can truly be represented. Everything else is "mere temporary appearances" cause and effect. Impermanent interdependent originations. Relative.

"all things are projections created by the mind" "expression of various conditions temporarily coming together- like the sound of the drum."

"there is nothing concrete or absolutely real behind the sound- or behind anything else."

"nothing behind appearances"

"its not just the self that's inherently empty, but anything-and everything" -Lama Surya Das Awakening the Buddha Within

equanimity comes naturally when letting go(releasing attachment), just being, dwelling happily in what is, not bound by one side or the other. Without discrimination, impartiality, prejudice, bias, clinging. The rest just dissolves away.

obviously I am a work in progress :sun:


Edited by Sse (11/17/13 02:02 PM)


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19152255 - 11/17/13 10:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think I liked the OP because it gets down to the pragmatics of living with death looming. Viewing it instead as a loss of self can be highly enabling. And here's why I say that. Every time we are faced with a situation that threatens our identity we are faced with that good ole primal fear. Whether the identity is tied up with the physical body or tied up with a mental abstraction. Same, same. And although death seems inevitable, dealing with identification is another story. Some degree of identification is necessary for survival but there is a lot of wiggle room. So much of what leads to defensiveness is wholly unnecessary and often a large waste of energy/resources.

Trying to do battle with death is a guaranteed loss
Whereas wise choices in identification can be liberating
May as well use a shield which enables :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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