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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Fear of death or fear of no self?
    #19112505 - 11/09/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I remember from a while ago reading a line in one of Jed Mckenna's books that people aren't afraid of death, they are actually afraid of the self not being real, and that death is only a shadow of no self.

Now, when I ponder Icelanders definition of enlightenment; to have no death anxiety either conscious or unconscious, I wonder, and I believe Icelander does as well, whether this even possible to do while still living. After all, the biological drive for life is quite strong. However, I feel the important part of this definition is the lack of attachment to this life.

If fear of death is the impediment, then there is hard work involved. The self, which exists now, must give up attachment to it's own existence. There is something to let go of, to release.

However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.

If there is no attachment to this life, then whether one fears death or not is of no significance. Fear will come and go, like any other phenomena.


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Offlinebloodsheen
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19112652 - 11/09/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Regardless of whether or not you are aware of the fact that fear, like all other things, is a passing thing, it doesn't stop you from living the life biology has meant you to live and fearing that which must pass (death). Its like saying, don't worry about your debt, some people out there are fighting just to stay fed and not get killed by their government. You know its true, but it doesn't make your current station in life any less real to you.

I once heard it said that to fear death is as ridiculous as to fear birth. As an atheist I do not fear death since death is a return to nothingness. The fear, as you mentioned, is almost entirely due to the drive to live. But I think that if most people were given the opportunity to live forever, they would regret that decision sooner than they thought they would


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog


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Offlinecircastes
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: bloodsheen]
    #19112710 - 11/09/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

How is the self a different entity from what is called the world? Literally speaking. No metaphor, no complicated idea... it is actually the same thing. At least this is true of the mind, surely you've noticed that.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
    #19113472 - 11/10/13 06:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with him. What we fear most is that this is just a puppet show. But death is still the best signifier of that to us so to all intents and purposes Becker's theory works just the same under that bracket. I still think we fear the brutality of death to some extent though (you'd be mad not to and besides it's basic biology), but the main fear and what separates human fear from typical animal behaviour is fear of loss of illusory self.

I don't think that changes whether or not it might be accomplishable in a life time either. It seems at least extremely rare either way.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisiblehTx
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Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #19113484 - 11/10/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the self is already lost always, I mean really..

Can you find it, anywhere?

Change is the only constant, remember that, remember that you are change, and therefore, constant.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: hTx]
    #19113543 - 11/10/13 07:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

We all develop attachments

and I think it must be the attachment to the world, your family, your identity, your life / things you didnt get done you want to do, that is the fear

if you live in the moment it is all reduced

we still develop attachments all the time though... meditation helps reduce attachments

less is more  , more appreciation
we already have what we need all the time


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19113547 - 11/10/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

thoughts,desires,emotions  create attachment, suffering

buddhism :-)

its that attachment you will have to give up when you die probably, creates fear of losing
the brain very quickly develops attachments to everything

your cell phone, your house, your job, having money, your family, your friends, your pets, your identity, getting new stuff like everyone else... etc

you dont want to lose any of it

but we only lose what we are attached to


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore] * 1
    #19113570 - 11/10/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

if you can develop a mind without attachments to anything you can experience death at any time

no self / oneness


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Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19113649 - 11/10/13 08:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I suggest it's not fear of death or of dissolution but fear of awareness of dying and awareness of the pain of dissolution that is the real fear.

The real fear is fear of awareness.


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...or something







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Offlineall this beauty
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Registered: 02/13/13
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: White Beard]
    #19113802 - 11/10/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Fear of death serves an evolutionary purpose.  If it didn't, we wouldn't experience it.

(Unless, of course, you view the universe as some kind of malevolent trickster that's forever putting obstacles in our way -- obstacles that need removing.)

Fear of death prevents me from jumping off a cliff merely to experience the bliss of flight and total, momentary, freedom.  It's also a primary reason that people fuck and make babies.  We fear not being remembered.  Not leaving behind a part of ourselves.

Quote:

White Beard said:
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.



Or...perhaps when one realizes one has always been everything:wink:


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19113877 - 11/10/13 09:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you have transcendent awareness you dont fear losing your awareness / dieing in the physical body

for you are everything you see and has always been, you are me, you are everyone you see

life is a long dream / hallucination , everything is one

but many people fear death because they think theyre unique
would be a shame to let that uniqueness go to waste, when they didnt even get done what they wanted done

rush before death, instead of spending everyday in the life

but there is a difference between fearing death and seeking death
you might still want to spend as much time as possible here in this life
dunno, wouldnt jump off buildings, only in lucid dreams :wink:

LSD i.e. can make us see the continuous process of death and birth, call it a hallucination, but I believe it is the truth

just a quick writeout, bbl.


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OfflineYogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19113883 - 11/10/13 09:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I detect a lot of death anxiety.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Yogi1]
    #19113892 - 11/10/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

true, its almost impossible to get rid of :-)

wanting to stay here for as long as possible is death anxiety too heh

instead of just accepting death any day


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OfflineYogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
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Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19113919 - 11/10/13 09:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Death is death. May you all have the blissful re connection to god you're going for. I just don't have such high expectations for the blade of grass that I am.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Yogi1]
    #19113948 - 11/10/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

god is bliss and love :-)

wouldnt mind reconnecting with that
and god is in all of us


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Offlinecircastes
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Registered: 01/14/10
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19114044 - 11/10/13 10:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I can honestly say I can die as long as it is not horribly, painfully or undignified (ie. some rapist-murderer takes me out). When my time comes around there won't be any fear. I can clearly see that too much is going on to suggest everything is going to be alright or everything is alright in the universe. My physical life is not important, and I suspect I am actually something far stranger than a human being and I am in a far stranger circumstance than the Newtonian-Cartesian paradigm.

Don't worry, be happy, about sums it up.

I think I will live by that from now on. Just not worry. I worry so much... and it's all looking dandy.

Love you. :heart:


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: circastes]
    #19114228 - 11/10/13 10:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:smile: you too, peace

when living with peace there is no fear
love is stronger than fear , peace is love


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OfflineYogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: lessismore]
    #19114355 - 11/10/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You dirty hippies ... :flowers:


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Invisiblecez
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Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: Yogi1]
    #19114473 - 11/10/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I used to be all about that hippy shit.
I still believe in its essence, but preaching it leaves a sour taste in my mouth :puke:


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Offlinecrkhd
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
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Re: Fear of death or fear of no self? [Re: all this beauty] * 1
    #19114950 - 11/10/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Fear of death serves an evolutionary purpose.  If it didn't, we wouldn't experience it.

(Unless, of course, you view the universe as some kind of malevolent trickster that's forever putting obstacles in our way -- obstacles that need removing.)

Fear of death prevents me from jumping off a cliff merely to experience the bliss of flight and total, momentary, freedom.  It's also a primary reason that people fuck and make babies.  We fear not being remembered.  Not leaving behind a part of ourselves.

Quote:

White Beard said:
However, if the impediment is truly fear of being nobody, when one realizes one has always been nothing, there is nothing to let go of, as there is nothing to hold on to.



Or...perhaps when one realizes one has always been everything:wink:





It's somewhat bizarre making this realisation every five minutes or so. Just going back and forth. In the moment, then suddenly dead & disappeared then to jolt awake and realise one has been That all along, all this time. Then there is forgettance/absorption into the moment, and well, death once more. It's a cycle perfectly repeating yet ever novel.


Haven't slept for a good two or three months practically. Well I have dropped into sleep of course but there has been a constant string of awareness. A non-sensation of being-hereness that threads through day and night, unceasing. It is the eternal Day, the Light shining forth. If you stay awake for a few days in a row meditating you can touch upon this feeling. Then it permeates to every waking moment and you realise how ancient You are. Billions of years old, yet ever-new every cycle. It's blissful somewhere within, this repeated return to Self. I mean all these individual forms, realising over and over and over again that they are One. I don't have any words to really describe that but wow!

My sense of time is bizarre. There is no time but a series of sequential & cyclical events. These two months have felt like an eternity yet also simultaneously like the blink of an eye. It feels incredible to feel this simultaneous infinity-unity smear across time itself but memory recall is leaving a little to be desired. I can't remember anything, it all just flashes on and off and goes away.

Sun goes up, Sun goes down! Moon goes up, moon goes down! Staying awake and meditating to see through several sunrises and several sunsets gives you an idea of the timescale of things. Every moment is vanishingly small in the grand scheme of things. This is somewhat scary beyond comprehension yet also simultaneously exciting by all excellence, truly a delight to look forward to. Along the time axis, this moment now is as a grain of dust floating around in deep space.


What is really freaking the living crap out of me is that every conversation we have is the continuation of the ONLY conversation there ever is, ever was and ever will be. Every word we use is billions of years old and we ourselves will be etched into the conversation of the future, as the distinct residue of the past. But yeah, it makes the idea of an individual or alone self truly absurd abiding from this perspective. Doesn't stop me getting worried or sad or feeling upset or hurt either, I accept this as the natural flow of affairs.


Through knowing that we are this story of the Earth spinning round and round and generating ourselves on its surface, there is major comfort in looking at how we've gone from a bunch of monkeys flinging shit at each other to being able to simulate & hence imagine/create entire universes on a tiny computer. That makes eating and shitting and the bodily functions seem quite benign or worthwhile as a part of our evolution, just to appreciate the beauty of what we have evolved thus far and shall continue onward, forever


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


Edited by crkhd (11/10/13 01:51 PM)


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