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OfflineCuriousGG
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Registered: 11/05/13
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Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online
    #19107223 - 11/08/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey guys I am now considering ordering some San Pedro cactus through Amazon or any other site. My main concern is if ordering San Pedro online will get me in trouble with the law and get me arrested. I'm not going to purchase it as a powder form, I was going to order as large cuttings. Can anyone enlighten me on this please?  It seems like a large majority of people just order it and have NO trouble at all... Is there any  law limiting how much you are allowed to purchase? I was going to purchase multiple 12 inch cuttings(3 or 4)?  By the way I DID try looking this information up(such as erowid) but I need to be absolutely sure. I live in CALIFORNIA by the way!

P.s. Anyone know any good sites I should look at when purchasing SP? How much should each foot cost?


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InvisibleDety
Old No.7
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Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 1,685
Re: Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online [Re: CuriousGG]
    #19107268 - 11/08/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Found this but its really old.

Lots of good info here about growing your cuttings

Quote:


Description of the
U.S. Legal Status of Non-Peyote Mescaline-Containing Cacti
in 2003-2004
by Erowid
v1.2 - Jan, 2004
First, it is important to state that the legal status of mescaline-containing cacti is complex because the law is not clear. US Controlled Substance laws are unclear, confusing, and not based on any clear, rational criteria. The following is an attempt to draw out some of the issues we see as relevant to the legal status of these plants.

San Pedro and the other columnar mescaline-containing cacti are not specifically scheduled, but they contain the controlled substance mescaline. Mescaline is a Schedule I substance in the U.S. The wording of the Controlled Substance Act is that "any material, compound, mixture, or preparation, which contains any quantity of [a Schedule I hallucinogenic substance]", is also a Schedule I substance. In practice, there are many common plants which contain measurable quantities of Schedule I substances like mescaline and DMT. While peyote (Lophophora williamsii) is specifically named in the law as a Schedule I substance, columnar cacti, like the San Pedro (T. pachanoi) and Peruvian Torch (T. peruvianus), are not.

Since we are unaware of any convictions involving whole San Pedro and the case law contains no cases on point, it makes their legal status unclear. It is possible for a prosecutor to argue that it is illegal to possess or distribute San Pedro with the knowledge that it contains a controlled substance. This is based on somewhat analogous cases dealing with unscheduled plants like khat and mushrooms, but there aren't any exactly parallel cases. The main differences are that cacti are most often possessed as ornamental plants not for ingestion (unlike existing cases involving khat and mushrooms), they are widely available from legitimate retail outlets, and they are grown openly in arboretums and in gardens. In contrast, khat is listed in a Federal Register entry where the DEA says it considers khat a controlled substance container.

Please Note: The fact that there have been few, if any, criminal convictions for the possession of San Pedro does not mean one is immune from police arrest for the sale or possession of these cacti.

We do know of one case where a person was prosecuted, and eventually plead guilty, for purchasing and distributing dried, powdered mescaline-containing Trichocereus cactus under a Illinois state law. Because the case did not go to trial and there was no apellate-level decision, it is hard to extrapolate from this one prosecution. It stands as an important reminder that selling prepared mescaline-containing cacti products skirts the edge of the law and could easily be considered "manufacturing" or "distributing" a controlled substance.

Practically speaking it is very unlikely that someone would be convicted for simple possession of San Pedro. There is a much higher risk to those who sell the plants with information about their psychoactive properties. Prosecutors are more likely to target sellers who advertise their cactus for "getting high". Preparing San Pedro for ingestion also makes it more likely that the plant would be considered a "material, compound, mixture, or preparation" containing a Schedule I substance. There is little question under federal law about the legality of possessing or selling the cactus with the intent to use it as a source for mescaline.

These columnar mescaline-containing cacti are readily available from plant vendors across the country. They can be purchased at mega-chains such as Target and Home Depot and are cultivated on government properties and in arboretums. Because of this, simple possession with no intent to ingest is de facto legal. Cutting a propagable section (over 5 inches or 12 cm) off of a live cactus would generally not count as preparation. However, slices, blended or boiled cactus material, pulp, extraction equipment, or any process of extraction could be considered preparation and immediately turns the plant material into a "container" for a Schedule I substance.

The only case we know of is that of M. Coblenz who was charged, under California law, for selling San Pedro. His lawyer defended the case by arguing selective prosecution. He was not convicted, but we have no details about whether the defense succeeded, there was a plea agreement, or if some other circumstances resulted in the charges being dropped or dismissed.

As a side note, Richard Glen Boire of the Center for Cognitive Liberty and Ethics points out that it could be argued that the "mescaline" that is a federally controlled substance refers only to synthetic and/or artificial mescaline. Because of the wording of Schedule I, where peyote is scheduled by name, and because the wording which specifically mentions chemicals "of vegetable origin", it could be inferred that the explicit intent of the Controlled Substances Act is to not include substances "of vegetable origin" in Schedule I unless specifically listed.

Related Case Law:

    Khat : US Federal: US v Hussein, US District of Maine, 2003 (351 F.3d 9)
    Khat : Ohio State: State v Samatar 2003, 787 NE 2d 691, Ohio App 10 Dist
    Ayahuasca : US Federal : UDV-USA v Ashcroft 2003. Apellate Decision





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Offlinenicechrisman
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Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 33,241
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Re: Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online [Re: CuriousGG]
    #19107270 - 11/08/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

many people order many different kinds of cactus cuttings for landscaping purposes. There's nothing illegal about growing any of the trichocereus cacti. It is illegal to prepare and consume them, but perfectly legal to have them, plant them, and grow them.

Welcome to the world of cacti. You might do a bit of research to figure out which ones are consistently the most medicinal.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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OfflineFunkySkunk
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Registered: 10/04/12
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Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online [Re: CuriousGG]
    #19107469 - 11/08/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CuriousGG said:
P.s. Anyone know any good sites I should look at when purchasing SP? How much should each foot cost?



Check out some of the Shroomery sponsors. Just look around a little and you should be able to find a good place that suits you.

Personally, I like to buy as local as possible. I feel like the least amount of distance/travel time with live specimen makes a difference. :thumbup:


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Invisiblenannybooboo
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Posts: 325
Re: Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19108572 - 11/09/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
many people order many different kinds of cactus cuttings for landscaping purposes. There's nothing illegal about growing any of the trichocereus cacti. It is illegal to prepare and consume them, but perfectly legal to have them, plant them, and grow them.

Welcome to the world of cacti. You might do a bit of research to figure out which ones are consistently the most medicinal.



From what I've read you could actually be charged with possession of mescaline even if you have psychoactive plants as ornamentals. Pretty lame seeing that in the US it's much harder to obtain lophs than pachanois.

edit--------------------------

This is based off of what a moderator once said here. I can provide a link in the morning im way too tired to get digging. :tongue:


Edited by nannybooboo (11/09/13 12:41 AM)


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online [Re: nannybooboo]
    #19109071 - 11/09/13 05:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think there is no risk if you buy plant for ornament.. I don't know lots of usa and it's states law but in europe are also very different rules depends on country but law is almost same.

In my country, there are illegal to grow mescaline containing cactus for consumption or extraction. But there is not any species listed to law what are "mescaline containing cacti"

Also I have never heard anyone is prosecuted about growing cacti here, only heard police have seize one person collection and later on return them where lots of young seedlings was dead cause they have been without care.

USA and EU are kinda different cause in USA are actually listed lophophora williamsii, peyote to law as illegal plant. Some europe countries have listed only "mescaline containing cactus" and they are legal if they are ornamental plants. Actually in my country are probably illegal to grow large number of same clone mescaline containing cactus but few different clones and collection of various plants is not so simple to say is that garden for mescaline production or not. Also whole cacti are very rare there so most people don't even know what really is mescaline cacti if they are not study the plants further.

I remember in california are actually trichocereus cactus vendor(s) anyway and they sell plants online for ornaments.

Anyway, I could not fear of prosecution if you buy living cactus from vendor who doesn't mention dosages, preparation information and so on. Only cacti growing information with cactus can be sold easily and buy without fear of prosecution if plants you are going to obtain is not actually lophophora species cactus. I have get to understanding that actually all lophophora species can lead to prosecution in states cause difference between peyote and other lophophora are not so simple to see for person who doesn't actually know this genus further.

I am very confused somehow about my country law of growing mescaline containing cactus plants but cause I don't hide any of my collection and I don't have lots of potential mescaline containing cactus anyway. Most of my trichocereus are total mystery to me and actually for everyone how much they have mescaline or do they have mescaline at all.

Anyway, I have seen here sometimes young trichocereus can be find from regular plant vendors along various cacti but there is no plant vendors who actually sell cacti under name of any species.

If I think you are in california and think about buying living cactus, you should no fear if you don't buy cuttings from vendor who offer you information about mescaline content, dosage, preparation info, and so on.. You buy plant from ornamental vendor and keep it as ornamental so there should not be any problem. In california, you have lots of cactus vendors and some of them are selling trichocereus as ornamental in larger scale and I have not heard no one have problem with them. Only problems I have heard from internet are peyote cactus and extracted mescaline salt but never heard living trichocereus can cause problems with law if cactus are ornament. In fact I have seen pictures from wall mart selling san pedro cactus as ornament so I don't think there are any problems to buy that cactus.. Assuming your vendor doesn't offer you any guidance of consuming or extracting the mescaline and other chemicals in cactus.

If you fear about prosecution, make sure you are not using vendors who sell plants for consumption and you don't get any information to ingest or extract mescaline with plant.

In EU I have been always clear cause I use only vendors who sell plants as ornamental. I have never think of using vendors who offer dosage and consumption information with the plants cause they are illegal in my country obviously. I have never be in trouble with vendors and customs if I buy ornamental cactus plant, no matter of species.
Also I have avoid buying cacti from smartshops cause they can send cacti parcel what contains dosage information and preparation guidance.

Think what vendor you use before you buy your cacti so you probably avoid problems with law then. Anyway, I cannot advice how to buy cacti in states but law seems to be similar with trichocereus than law in my country what does't define exactly what is illegal or not but seems ornamental gardens can ship plants to my country and any plant can be obtained when using common sense when collecting plants. But as I said, law are not so simple here also but it doesn't have stop my hobby cause these possible mescaline containing plants are only small margin of all plants I have in my garden. I can collect as well as peyote or san pedro without problems by using common sense with amount of plants.
Law seems to be same in states than my country but we have no illegal species listed anywhere so in fact all cacti can be illegal and legal same time.
Seems our law enforcement are as well confused as people who collect these plants and because there are never have major problems with cacti compared to another drugs people abuse, these plants can easily obtained to own garden without fear of prosecution or so if number of plants are collected using common sense and only small amount of plants are actually mescaline containing cacti. I still know few cacti enthusiast who fear to obtain mescaline containing cactus of any kind to own garden but they don't know the law.

Back in the 80's and 90's in my country had peyote and other mescaline containing cacti available easily and most people have get their plants from that time anyway. Later on I have actually seen there are not much trichocereus/lophophora sold with regular cactus plants but cause most vendors inside my country buy their plants as "cactus mix" it's not unheard of find one or two pot with these species also. Nurseries there doesn't know or sell cactus plants under name of species. They are mostly selling all cactus plants as "cactus mix" so finding "illegal" cacti from mixture of species are very possible and most people really don't know anything about cacti and these plants are not even seen as possible drug of anykind. They are just ornaments. But because of unclear law about cactus, some collectors doesn't dare to obtain any of these species here. Some collectors will have them and they don't know they can be mescaline cacti, some people know they are mescaline cacti and have them anyway in their plant collection.


Edited by intelligentlife (11/09/13 05:32 AM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Ordering San Pedro Cactus Online [Re: nannybooboo]
    #19109744 - 11/09/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

nannybooboo said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
many people order many different kinds of cactus cuttings for landscaping purposes. There's nothing illegal about growing any of the trichocereus cacti. It is illegal to prepare and consume them, but perfectly legal to have them, plant them, and grow them.

Welcome to the world of cacti. You might do a bit of research to figure out which ones are consistently the most medicinal.



From what I've read you could actually be charged with possession of mescaline even if you have psychoactive plants as ornamentals. Pretty lame seeing that in the US it's much harder to obtain lophs than pachanois.

edit--------------------------

This is based off of what a moderator once said here. I can provide a link in the morning im way too tired to get digging. :tongue:




Yeah there's often a disconnect between what you technically could be charged with if they really wanted to get you, and what is actually going to be worth anyone's time to try to get you for. Still though, it's a good idea to be aware of both. Many people believed that MHRB was "100% legal" even though it contained the controlled substance DMT, just because the species is not named in any laws and numerous vendors were selling it openly without getting busted. Then shipments started getting intercepted and domestic vendors started shutting down, without any new ban on the species. Psilocybe mushrooms are not banned by species either (at least federally in the US,) they're illegal because of chemicals they contain and people can and do go to jail based on that.

That said, I don't believe it's likely that people will suddenly start getting busted for live cuttings of Trichocereus, just because there's so much out there as ornamentals (a far more convincing cover story than using MHRB to dye t-shirts.) Powder seems far sketchier. Keep in mind too that if they did decide to charge you, weight factors into the severity of the charge but purity does not. A kilo of powder that contains a detectable amount of mescaline could be claimed to be a kilo of mescaline.


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