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 PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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 The Seven Seals... what do you think? 
#1907942 - 09/11/03 11:52 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know that many people dont believe in christianity in this forum. However, this is directed to those that do. In Revelations, John speaks of 7 seals that will be broken by the lamb (Jesus).
1st seal - (Rev. 6:2) "I looked up and saw a white horse. Its rider carried a bow, and a crown was placed on his head. He rode out to win many battles and gain victory"
2nd seal - (Rev 6:4) "And another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to remove peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere."
3rd seal - (Rev 6:5) " And I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. And a voice from among the four living beings said, " A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley for a day's pay. And dont waste the olive oil and wine."
4th seal - (Rev 6:8) "And I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green like a corpse. And Death was the name of its rider, who was followed around by the Grave. They were given authority over 1/4 of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals."
The remaining seals seem to relate to things that one could not possibly miss. Which seal do you think has last been broken? When do you believe that the rapture and tribulation fall into this time frame?
Personally, I feel as if the second seal has been broken, metaphorically.. and I have a quandry as to where the rapture and tribulation periods fall into all of this. Im curious to hear your views and would appreciate those that have nothing constructive to say on this matter leaving it well enough alone. Thanks.
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NariusFractal
Sat Chit Ananda
Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 804
Loc: USA
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1908044 - 09/12/03 12:24 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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what do you think the second seal was?
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1908046 - 09/12/03 12:24 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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the Prime seal - (Rev. 6:0) "I looked out and saw a method of control: fear. I fed it to the masses and they dropped to their knees."
Yep... this seal was broken a long time ago.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: NariusFractal]
#1908113 - 09/12/03 12:43 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Personally, I believe the second seal is a metaphor more of an age then of an actual incident. Wether we relate this back to the crusades or the holocaust or the beginning of the cold war. Earlier in Revelations, they speak about the letters to the 7 churches which are metaphors for church stages or ages of growth or recession... I think this is similar. I also believe that our current president is a dispensationalist which aids in the belief that his messianic complex has aided in the hastening of any biblical end time. However, if we could pin down exact dates there would be no use in the statement that we would not know the day or the hour...
As for Sclorch, I dont exactly understand what the breaking of the seven seals, the rapture or the tribulation has to do with fear.
For most Christians these things actually hasten joy, not fear. Dont get me wrong, Im not doing dances in my backyard calling down the armeggedon. I dont fear it either. I just accept that as a tenent of my faith it is prophesied to happen. Personally, I recognize that I am a pretty pessimistic person so I focus more on signs of our times that actually relate to prophesy, while some deduce that revelations is simply metaphorical to the consciousness of man.
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 Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1908547 - 09/12/03 02:46 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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>> And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Rev 6:6 KJV)
Might this make reference to the stranglehold capital has taken on the people of earth?
>> And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. (Rev 6:12 KJV)
The only two things I know that can blot out the sun are ash and floating debris. I know from recent forest fire experiences that smoke can cause the moon to appear red. What, aside from George, can cause either of these phenomenon to occur on a global scale?
>> And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. (Rev 6:15 KJV)
Sounds like a catastrohpe not perpetrated by man against man to me.
>> And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. (Rev 8:10-11 KJV)
This is what was prophecied to occur after the third trumpet was sounded. I find it the most chilling reference in Revelations because "Chernobyl" (Tschernobyl) in Ukranian translates to "Wormwood". There is a Russian equivilent which also translates similarily. Chernobyl as we're all aware was a nuclear power plant "burning as a lamp", which underwent uninhibited meltdown, contaminating the adjacent rivers and water table with radioactive material.
"And many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."
Fatal birth defects and cancer still plauge the region.
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Mystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught
Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1908601 - 09/12/03 03:04 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I once ran across a guy online that went by the handle rev64...he was convienced that he was the second horseman of the appocolypse, and was going on and on about how he felt like God wanted him to instigate a major world war, but that he didn't want to because he felt very strongly against it. If I remember correctly, I told him something along the lines of: "God has chosen you for this mission and created you specifically to carry out this particualr part of his plan...by not going through with it you're basically rebelling against God and ensuring your own eternal damnation because of it" and then he said some shit like: "but if I'm responsible for so many innocent lives being lost, then won't I be sent to hell anyways?" to which I replied: "not if it's commanded by God" ....... I think I may have inadvertantly given birth to a terrorist that day. But oh well, such is life.
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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1908742 - 09/12/03 05:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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...then, of course, was Charles Miles Manson's interpretation, circa 1969, in which the Beatles were the Four Riders of the Apocalypse whom you mention. Their songs - especially the White Album - was The Last Trump[et], calling the Aryan remnant of Earth to prepare for the final conflict, which would begin as a White-Black race war. The physically dominant Black 'race' would win, but during the great battle, the Manson [Man-Son / Son-of-Man] Family would descend on a Golden Chain (some of which was purchased) to a cavern in the bowels of Death Valley, and there, wait out the fight. Then, after the Blacks had obliterated the Whites (Helter Skelter), and find themselves completely unable to govern themselves, running around like helpless children in search of a Master, the Mansonoids would arise from the Earth on the Golden Chain, and emerge into the light of day to rule the Black peoples, and the Earth. The End.
What?! Unacceptable version of The Apocalypse of John?!!!! Indeed. Well, it should be noted - before one puts all of ones apocalyptic eggs in one basket, that Revelations was almost not included in the canonical Bible (according to Irenaeus) but that there were a good number of Apocalyptic visionary stories floating around at the time, and THIS one was 'selected.' It did not crash through the Bible editors' roof and fall out of a flaming meteor. People need to know this - that Bible writings were selected from many, and that those who did the selecting were deciding what people would call the Word of God for centuries to come.
Revelations has embodied a separate mythology and a set of prophesies that are not rooted in Old Testament prophesies, which are the basis for the New Covenant and the Messiah. The time periods appear way to brief (1000 years, for example) to be taken literally, and should be regarded symbolically as a cosmic 'pendulum-swing' between the forces of Good [God] and Evil. The Hindu mythologies also write about this principle with their 'Yugas' [ages] of Gold and Iron, respectively. The myths need to be read as ever-present Realities, even though the story lines are depicted as linear history. Myths represent timeless events, portrayed in story form. The meaning needs to be 'compressed' and experienced in the Present, not waited for in a future time. This is the error that people made at the time of Paul, who seemed to believe that the End Times were a historical event, heralded by the reappearance of the Risen Christ. The End Times, may well be the End-of-Time - the Transcendence of time in each moment of time, namely, NOW. Obviously the end of the earth will occur, one way or the other. The 'stars' [aster, in Greek - asteroids, no doubt] may pummel the planet, and the Sun will oneday go supernova, engulfing us, but this is not what Paul, or John, or the other numerous Apocalyptics may have meant. THIS interpretation is the unpopular and 'Gnostic' interpretation of a 'fully realized eschatology,' rather than the 'partially realized eschatology' as taught since Paul. Personally, I think Christianity needs to be viewed in the fully realized sense - as Transcendence from the tyranny of time, not as being embedded in time - but that's just me.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1908749 - 09/12/03 06:06 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Deleted by admin
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
Registered: 08/05/03
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: World Spirit]
#1908790 - 09/12/03 06:34 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with Markos..............
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: Spokesman]
#1908891 - 09/12/03 08:17 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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the apocolypse (the revelation of st john the divine) is similar in tone and content to other "end-times" literature: some of which was christian, some of which was jewish (especially some of the essene literature), and some of the gnostic texts...
the book itself was probably concerned with eschatology of the late 1st century of the common era, with the memory (still fresh) of the destruction of the temple in jerusalem by the roman legions during the uprising circa 67 c.e. (and there was another uprising around 130-something as well)...
the forces of the empire were expected to be laid low by the coming (or the immanent return) of "the just one" with armies of angels and the might of the lord... and time itself would be ended, and a new order of justice and righteousness established, with all the world bending knee to the one true god, and god's people ("original flavor" jews, _or_ "the people of the way" (new covenanters, nazoreans (notsrim), christians) acting as a royal priesthood for all the peoples of the world (with those who would not submit being cast into the outer darkness, or into the pit, or ground into dust...)
~
i suspect that people who are seeing in 20th & 21st century headlines the template of 1st century "prophecy" are, well, reading too much into it, hehheh...
ymmv...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: World Spirit]
#1909703 - 09/12/03 01:15 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Could you point me towards the writings of said Christians?
Thanks.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: Spokesman]
#1909931 - 09/12/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Markos agrees with Thomas (and some of the other Gnostic interpreters).
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Lazerouth
Drunkard
Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: England
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kitty, i dont know who your talking to but www.gnosis.org/library is full of good christian writings.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: Lazerouth]
#1910714 - 09/12/03 06:42 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Aye, matey...Christian they may be - early Christian in fact - but NOT canonically Biblical. Rejected most of them, and held to be of 'wrong view,' i.e., 'heretical.' Some of the Gnostic writings developed out of creation myths other than Genesis, and may be far more revealing of the psychological makeup of early believers than a faithful reproduction of traditional Jewish religious myths. C.G. Jung found this to be true of the Gnostics, and I had over 8 years of Jungian analysis with 3 different analysts, and so became aware of the value of Gnostic thought. But please bear in mind, that people who have not taken a couple of steps back psychologically to look at the unconscious assumptions under which they have been living (e.g., the canonical Bible ALONE is the revealed 'Word of God'), will reject an occult-laden word like Gnosis (even though it IS used in the canon to denote true Knowledge imparted by the Holy Spirit). Listening to Professor Elaine Pagels from Princeton, at that site you named is an edifying experience. I admire her work and own all but one of her books. I love her mind!
Also be aware - from a Gnostic psychological point of view - that there are three degrees of people (Hylic or Sarkic [fleshy], Psychic and Pneumatic [Spiritual]). The Psychics and the Pneumatics comprise Christian believers, only the former receive Light through the mechanics of belief, faith and works, while the latter receive Light through spiritual or mystical experiences, called Gnosis [Knowledge]. Because some Gnostics could not handle the experiences without great ego-inflation, St. Paul called THOSE Pneumatic Christians "puffed up" - an apt term for inflation. Pneuma also means 'air,' so the double meaning is poignant. Historically, ALL Gnostics became tagged as 'bad,' just as all Jews were deemed evil because of specific references to "the Synagogue of Satan" in the NT. People uncritically take specific historical references, and wrongly generalize them. The worst examples come from Paul, who was clearly misogynistic, didn't question the institution of slavery, claimed that it was "shameful" for a man to wear his hair long, and a host of other non-PC proclamations that derived from his particular cultural time and place. For centuries the ignorant masses have taken these Pauline letters as The Word of God, when they were merely intended to be inspirational letters written by this Christian disciple and mystic to budding churches.
So, generally speaking, Gnostics are introverted intuitives whose psyches are predominated by the inner world, while the extraverted sensing types hold a book in hand, and insist that the Word be read with their eyes - taken 'in' from 'without' their mind-bodies. We all need to recognize our constitutional differences in order to understand our different points of view on these things.
The Gnostic regards the Word in Spirit as having priority over the Word in letter. My own inner experience needs to be checked against Scriptural writings, but the writngs that I value include the Bible but encompass additional writings. Moreover, I regard Scriptural writings - Biblical and other - as highly symbolic and hence deeply psychological - not as historical writings, past or future. But again, that's just me.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: Lazerouth]
#1910737 - 09/12/03 06:56 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Laz, I was asking Enter.. as he had said that there were Christians that believe none of the seals have yet been broken and in the majority of my readings of both contemporary and past biblical scholars most had agreed that seals had indeed been broken and that the tribulation laid upon the timeframe, not during it 
Thanks.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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What about the people who have taken steps backwards and forwards and believe indeed that the Bible is the word of God? And when exactly did this topic breach off into a monolouge about Gnostics? Although I appreciate your opinions, I just dont see what it has to do with the topic or the threads train of thought.
Im sure you will enlighten me tho
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: Ped]
#1910756 - 09/12/03 07:03 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ped, you make interesting points and touched on something I struggle with.. wether the trumpets sound during or after the seven seals. Did John just break it apart like this to keep a logical flow with all of the things going on? Or does it occur in said sequence?
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1911115 - 09/12/03 09:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: World Spirit]
#1911523 - 09/13/03 12:33 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Enter...
Okay,
Im confused. Although I do appreciate the opinions of you and Markos, please dont get me wrong, I just dont understand how that relates to the question of pointing me to christian writers who do not believe the seals have been broken yet. I've read the bible and studied it so the link you gave me doesnt do me alot of good.
At any given time I can reach no less then 2 feet from my person and read the book myself. As I too have read alot, listened to alot and have the gift of having a future father in law who has studied the bible in its original hebrew text and makes his life being a man of God, someone Im sure is regularly inhabited by the holy spirit..Im pretty versed in what the bible says. I agree with your points but am just having a bit of a hard time trying to figure out how they are relational.
But what I was asking was if you could tell me what Christians you were referring to in your earlier post. You also make a reference to a mid tribulation rapture theory that is highly disputed. No matter if you aspire to mid, post or pre rapture theories, it seems to be pretty universal that Jesus' second coming occurs 3.5 years into the tribulation not at the beginning of the 7 year period.
The strongest evidence seems to be for the pretribulation rapture theory, biblically speaking. For exmaple, the Day of the Lord is one of the names of the Thribulation and Zephaniah called it a day of wrath ( Zephaniah 1:14- 1:16).. However, Paul says that "God hath not appointed us to wrath"( 1 Thessalonians 5:9. He said God's Son (Jesus) had "delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thess 1:10) -- Jesus also said, " Pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass." (Luke 21:36)-- Paul also speaks of the Holy Spirit as the "restrainer" holding back the appearance of the Antichrist.. which leads to the deduction that since the Holy Spirit is indwelled with the church, it must be taken up before the rapture takes place.
In any case, thanks for your opinion. However, if anyone knows of any authors that actually speak on the subject of all of this Id appreciate it.. I've read Lindsay, Bisangno, Robie, LaHaye and Jenkins, Lieth, Pentecost, Brown... and more I cant think of
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: The Seven Seals... what do you think? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1911548 - 09/13/03 12:52 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten, I hear where you're coming from. Back in the seventies I went to see Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" with my Dad. It had a big effect on me. I began to see its patterns everywhere. Perhaps because I was looking for those patterns. Like patterns in a cloud?
I just wanted to give you that preface so you know where I'm coming from. The four horsemen info you gave was so abstract, it could mean anything. Everytime the old century clock rolls over there is a revival in the interest in this portion of the Bible. It is natural to be curious about it. Natural to believe God has written a script for the end of days and wants His special ones to ride out the storm..
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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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