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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,985
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
#19105866 - 11/08/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I didn't say you were committing a crime. I said it was illegal. Whether it rises to the level of a crime or not depends on other factors.
The internet isn't the ground.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
#19105880 - 11/08/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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shitty metaphor but nevertheless, it's still just me finding something. i'm not copying for the purposes of distribution, i am copying for the sake of my own personal use; and i'm taking something i found, not something i've "stolen".
regardless, i don't want to see artists go out of business because of piracy. i'm considering the moral value of this, not for legality, but as an artist myself.
i figure people who DL music, will actually buy it at some point, but it doesn't stop the fact of music being available for free without anything going to the artist. that is a problem, for sure.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,467
Loc: 613
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
#19105890 - 11/08/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: It comes down to the same thing I said before. Either you believe in the concept of intellectual property or you don't. Either my creations are mine to choose what to do with them or they are public domain. My reasons for wanting only one copy of my movie to exist are my own, and it's not your call.
I don't think it's quite that black and white. I don't "believe in" the concept of intellectual property in the sense that one might believe in a religion, but the concept itself undeniably does exist in our world and many would agree it has some important benefits. Some see it as a "natural right" that's absolute and not up for debate, some see it as a means to an end (e.g. encouraging desirable innovation,) and some see it as totally useless and a limitation on their freedom to innovate further. To me it seems pretty obvious that it's a construct, a means to an end. Different forms of IP expire within different time periods, and those are decided with the idea of striking a balance that makes sense for the affected field. The stance that authors simply have a natural right to absolute control over their works is not consistent with allowing those protections to expire (IMO.)
If the simplest inventions and creative works were protected in perpetuity, the effect would actually be to discourage further innovation. If someone held a perpetual patent on the wheel and axle or a copyright on the diatonic scale and its derivative chords, a likely result would be near-total stagnation in affected fields. Luckily though IP protections are substantially limited.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,985
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
#19105899 - 11/08/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, you're copying something that is on the internet without permission of the copyright holder and then treating that copy like it is your own.
It's no different than if you went to a movie theatre and videotaped the screen. After all, you're just recording something you saw, right?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,985
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: psi]
#19105909 - 11/08/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
I don't think it's quite that black and white. I don't "believe in" the concept of intellectual property in the sense that one might believe in a religion, but the concept itself undeniably does exist in our world and many would agree it has some important benefits. Some see it as a "natural right" that's absolute and not up for debate, some see it as a means to and end (e.g. encouraging desirable innovation,) and some see it as totally useless and a limitation on their freedom to innovate further. To me it seems pretty obvious that it's a construct, a means to an end. Different forms of IP expire within different time periods, and those are decided with the idea of striking a balance that makes sense for the affected field. The stance that authors simply have a natural right to absolute control over their works is not consistent with allowing those protections to expire (IMO.)
If the simplest inventions and creative works were protected in perpetuity, the effect would actually be to discourage further innovation. If someone held a perpetual patent on the wheel and axle or a copyright on the diatonic scale and its derivative chords, a likely result would be near-total stagnation in affected fields. Luckily though IP protections are substantially limited.
All rights, morals, and laws are constructs...and none of those are ever absolute. Beyond that, what exactly is your point?
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
#19105926 - 11/08/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah, but if i keep that video for myself, i don't see how it's stealing, i payed to go fucking see the movie. but i see you're point, but for clarification, this is what i disagree with.
if I DON'T MOVE the product, past what my personal use of it is, then how the FUCK am i doing something morally wrong? legally, it just "is what it is", right. but WHY?
i don't MOVE or DISTRIBUTE. I KEEP, what i payed for, in the case of the movie example.
in the case of the downloading, again, i might be legally committing a crime... but how am i morally committing crime? i didn't PUT the item on the internet, to break the permissions from the artist. someone else did. how am i morally responsible? maybe in principle i am guilty of being negligent of the fact that it's there illegally. however, then i don't know how i can be held legally responsible; when i am not the one who put it there to be taken. i get it, the law is crystal clear, it's illegal. but WHY am i the one committing the crime, if am not aware of the publications/movie/album's permissions and copyrights in the first place?
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,467
Loc: 613
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
#19105952 - 11/08/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: All rights, morals, and laws are constructs...and none of those are ever absolute. Beyond that, what exactly is your point?
Mainly that I believe it's an oversimplification to say that IP is something that you "either believe in or you don't," and that weaker IP protections can often be desirable. For the rest of my point, refer back to the post itself.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,985
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
#19105965 - 11/08/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, because someone else made it easy for you, you're not morally responsible?
If a woman was already tied up and unconscious in an alley and had been raped by seven guys, would you not be morally responsible if you gave her a poke too before you got her to a hospital? After all, you only used her for your own personal use...you didn't share her.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
#19105983 - 11/08/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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no, i'd absoutuly be morally responsible. but in the case of downloading a music album or movie, if someone else made it as easy as picking it up off a website for free, i might be morally reprehensible to you for taking it, but am i legally responsible for it having been there? i don't think so. so in that sense, i don't see how i'd be committing any real crime. just a matter of happenstance, that i happened to click on a link that happened to lead to a download of files on my computer that happened to be invalid of the IP laws of ones respective country.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,985
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
#19105992 - 11/08/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're legally responsible for taking it. Again, I didn't say it was a crime...but it's certainly illegal.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
#19105994 - 11/08/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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ok, point taken. i'm just curious if i should have cause for concern, considering i have DL'd music. i actually kinda feel bad about it, with the ramifications of musicians futures in making music for their livelihood. if i was trying to make money off of my music, i'd like to sell it at an acceptable price online... an album shouldn't cost 30 something dollars, in my opinion. the music itself should be worth more then the plastic and paper it comes with. it should be an option, ALWAYS, to purchase an album online, in high quality FROM the artist themselves. so the proceeds go to the artist directly. 15 bucks to an artist directly, per pop, should be a livable and discernible payment for their work; and i said, it should simply be AN OPTION. this is just conjecture on my part however, as i don't know what costs record companies would get hit with doing that.
Edited by akira_akuma (11/08/13 02:50 PM)
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lighthouse09
Stranger thats mr. stranger



Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 699
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
#19106036 - 11/08/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i do pay for movies from time to time and go to the theater sometimes but to watch a movie thats not in theaters anymore and they charge $20 to download not even own the disc i think is to much usually i just wait and it comes to netflix . times do seem to be changing and downloading is getting cheaper now so maybe movies are an exception and maybe they should'nt blow so may billions into making all these huge budget films.
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<--This fuckin guy
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hidenseek1
Its got all the dinks.
Registered: 12/22/12
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Loc: poop
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: lighthouse09]
#19106076 - 11/08/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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one time in my teens i dl some musics, and then i downloaded an album that must of been a virus and it wiped all my music, even ones i didnt even illegally down load (i had it all in the same folder)
i think it might have even been Metallica album that did it but im not 100% sure on that
-------------------- You can drink at 7 A.M., because the Beastie Boys fought for that right -------------------------------------------------------------------------- pons asinorum -------------------------------------------------------------------------- lsd and the vietnam war changed music forever
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: hidenseek1]
#19106093 - 11/08/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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that would been the best virus if Lars Ulrich came up on your desktop ala Hackers/Jurassic Park style, going "HAHAHAHAHA that's what you get!"
PS: Quote:
Like so many others, your morals are defined by your desires.
isn't everybodys? even as ethical and rational as you can be, your morality is till based on your desires.
Edited by akira_akuma (11/08/13 04:04 PM)
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