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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105120 - 11/08/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Poor Boy said:
thanks for ruining my thread guys...



We made your thread interesting.  Your threads, as a rule, suck so badly that you should be glad that someone other than you took the initiative to improve one of them.



^^^^^^^

Quote:

Enlil said:
If you buy a song and then give it to someone else and delete it from your computer, you're no different than the library and you're not doing anything wrong.

If you buy a song and give it to 10 friends along with keeping a copy for yourself, you just fucked the copyright holder over.  Telling yourself otherwise is just intellectually dishonest.



in the case of people who care about intellectual property. yeah. otherwise. you could argue that, it's yours; you bought it, and fuck anyone tell you what to do with WHAT YOU BOUGHT YOURSELF. that is, if you really don't give a flying fuck about intellectual property, i mean.

1: intellectual property rights in practice is useful for the music industry, but on principle, it's rather despicable to the customer to restrict the freedom of use for the items and wares THEY BUY with THEIR MONEY.

2: i don't agree with the notion that the music industry is run well. as a business it maybe is (but not even as good as it could be), but as a distribution industry of musical wares, it serves no purpose to artistic freedom or merit. it serves only the artists that are mainstream and popular, and even then, those artists and others don't get their fair share from the industry.


Edited by akira_akuma (11/08/13 11:36 AM)


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Juicin]
    #19105250 - 11/08/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Juicin said:
You honestly think patenting things like medicine and technology is helpful to society?




Absolutely.  Without patent protection, many innovations simply wouldn't happen.  Why would a company invest billions in developing a drug if, after they did, another company could simply make the product for cheaper, thus never letting the developing company recoup their investment?

Without IP protection, there would be very little incentive for anyone to create new stuff.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105277 - 11/08/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

it's little more important for an industry and actually advances things for us humans, on an evolutionary standpoint. ie being able to deal with disease and have great expansion and communications capabilities. the entertainment industry though, it's kinda fruitless.

1: people will pirate and 2: people still make shit that is at the very most, only ALMOST the same as what someone else made previously, though it's still considered original. it wouldn't be any different with no IP protection, except for the fact of material gain.

for the adage of innovation, it helps the entertainment industry very minimally, form what i can see.

could be wrong though. :shrug: personally, i plan a buying lots of the records i have DLd because i like them, and since i don't distribute, trade or even lend music, i would feel like i've profited by having DLd a copy first, before buying it. if i still buy it afterall, then aren't i evening the scales, so to speak?


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105302 - 11/08/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Juicin said:
You honestly think patenting things like medicine and technology is helpful to society?




Absolutely.  Without patent protection, many innovations simply wouldn't happen.  Why would a company invest billions in developing a drug if, after they did, another company could simply make the product for cheaper, thus never letting the developing company recoup their investment?

Without IP protection, there would be very little incentive for anyone to create new stuff.




Less incentive, not very little

And you could publicly fund cures instead of proprietary treatments. Monetizing important information is rarely a moral thing. Polio vaccine? The patent system gives people incentives to do bad things in the medical industry.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Juicin]
    #19105382 - 11/08/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The patent system gives people incentives to make better products because they know they can recoup the cost to develop it.  Without patent protection, a company would develop a drug and then go under as another company takes advantage of the billions spent by the first company. 

Public funding is a terrible idea.  That only encourages endless research without actual development.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19105456 - 11/08/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Without IP protection, there would be very little incentive for anyone to create new stuff.




In the case of music, I don't believe that's true. Numerous people I think of as great musicians have day jobs and play music for fun and perhaps a couple hundred bucks here and there for weekend gigs. People like this will always make music whether there's money in it or not, because they love doing it (in other words they're amateurs in the truest sense.) The same is not as true of things like big budget movies and pharmaceutical research. These activities would most likely be scaled back quite a bit in the absence of IP protections.

IMO IP laws are best looked at as a means to an end (e.g. rewarding things considered worthwhile) rather than as a pre-existing moral right, so the pros and cons of any particular protection scheme are always up for debate (i.e. what are you trying to encourage by punishing copying, how well is it at furthering those goals, and what are the downsides of that protection.) If the objective behind punishing the unauthorized copying of music is to make sure that good music is available, is it working in that regard? Is it helping more talented but relatively unknown musicians on the threshold of profitability to support themselves through music? Are the makers of great music that will be remembered for generations the people who get the biggest rewards from IP protections?

In the case of non-commercial copying, enforcement is essentially impossible anyway when the copying doesn't take place in a public venue like the internet (or when it takes place over the internet in ways that are obscured sufficiently.) Many people copied records to cassette tape to trade with friends in the era before digital music, and the chances of enforcing the law in those cases were essentially zero. The same applies today to lending out CDs or bringing a hard drive over to a friend's house and swapping terabytes of data. The convenience of doing this will only increase as large capacity SSDs get cheaper and transfer speeds increase. Punishing this type of activity is essentially impossible, but applying levies to storage media is fairly straightforward.

Prosecuting commercial copying is a lot more practical since it generally involves some kind of public presence when done on a larger scale (e.g. the guy selling pirated DVDs at the flea market.)


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: psi]
    #19105579 - 11/08/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There will always be people who make music, movies, paintings, and pharmaceuticals for free or very cheap.  There are always people who will work for free at any job.

Those are not the people who IP laws are meant to protect.  They don't want or need protection.  Similarly, employment laws are not meant to protect the guy who volunteers at the local dog shelter for free.

The laws are meant for the rest of us...those of us trying to survive and compete in a capitalistic society. 

And maybe it isn't even about money.  Maybe it's about protecting the work.  If you make a cheeseball film shot on hd video, maybe you only want it seen as you intended it to be seen...on HD video as you edited it.  Maybe you don't want the world to see some shaky-camera-in-a-theatre version on youtube in 320p and think it's your work.

The same logic can be applied to any art.

It comes down to the same thing I said before.  Either you believe in the concept of intellectual property or you don't.  Either my creations are mine to choose what to do with them or they are public domain.  My reasons for wanting only one copy of my movie to exist are my own, and it's not your call.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105621 - 11/08/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Either my creations are mine to choose what to do with them or they are public domain.  My reasons for wanting only one copy of my movie to exist are my own




well, no one is stealing from you, so... if you release it... :shrug: they're both public domain and your work.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19105670 - 11/08/13 01:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Also lots of patent never get found because someone would lose alot of money if it was. So maybe the patent should only extend 5-10 years then it is public domain giving companys time to make back money and advance way beyond the competition in that time but also not holding back humanity.and music and art have no place for patents like movies once it's released it's public domain.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: lighthouse09]
    #19105694 - 11/08/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Patents have a time limit, as do copyrights.

The concept that releasing a film makes it public domain is just stupid.  The only way you can reconcile that is through hippie logic.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105707 - 11/08/13 01:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i bought it. it's mine now. i'll fart on it, piss on it, shit on it, spit on it, spin around on the floor, or trade it for goods, if i fucking want to.

there is no reconciling that.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19105730 - 11/08/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You can certainly do all of those things.  You just can't copy it without ripping off the copyright holder.  If you're morally okay with doing that, so be it.  If the copyright holder sues you for $50k, so be it.

No skin off my dick either way.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105732 - 11/08/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

and if i take a copy that i didn't copy myself? how does that fit into your paradigm? really, i'm curious.

personally, i used to object to piracy, and i used to too buy all my CDs, and i'm thinking of reverting back to that rationale.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19105738 - 11/08/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you take a copy that was made without copyright holder's permission, and you knew it was made without copyright holder's permission, your morally in the wrong...but again, you're free to be as morally reprehensible as you want.

And the copyright holder is free to sue you if he/she/it wants.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105752 - 11/08/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

why is he/she free to sue me? how so? i didn't copy anything. explain your reasoning, please. why should i be able to be sued when i perpetrated no copyright infringement myself?

this may be morally wrong, but it isn't legally... i didn't copy anything, it was copy by someone else, and put on the internet. i simply took it off a website.

how is that me copying anything?


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19105789 - 11/08/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:facepalm:

Are you really that ignorant about how the internet works?  When you download something, you're copying it from that server to your computer.  It doesn't move the data...it copies it.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105808 - 11/08/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i didn't copy it for distribution. i didn't distribute it. it's just there... it should be removed, and maybe the person who put in the server could be held liable. this is my argument. not that rhetorical crap your passing off.

how am i liable for someone else's copying and distribution? you can explain yourself, or not. you won't, because you're morally obligated to nitpick about the difference between physical or digital copies being negligible; and you can't explain why it's negligible.:shrug: from a legal standpoint, anyways.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105831 - 11/08/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
:facepalm:

Are you really that ignorant



The answer is yes, he is.


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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19105835 - 11/08/13 01:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

From a legal standpoint, it's crystal clear.  By downloading copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder, you're in violation of the law.  That's not up for debate.

Whether you think it's morally right or wrong is a different issue, but it is certainly illegal.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: downloading and burning movies [Re: Enlil]
    #19105855 - 11/08/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, i understand that it's crystal clear, except for one thing... why? WHY am i committing a crime, by simply downloading material that i had nothing to do with copying or distributing? WHY? how am i responsible or liable for "stealing" from the artist? how is it as much a crime of the sole arbiter of it's copying and distribution? all i did was take something basically speaking "off the ground". it's like a just found it... i found it and picked it up. i didn't do anything else. i didn't make the attempt to "steal" anything. :shrug:

i'm not talking moral obligations... i'm talking about a legal definition of what makes me the criminal who is "stealing".


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