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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: hTx]
    #19103653 - 11/08/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

IMO, its both.

Its pretty silly to just undermine consciousness completely when every single thing that is material is also consciousness, since these words must pass through your very eyes, your very consciousness to be understood/interpreted.

Don't mean to be cliche, but quantum physics proves that the mere act of observation effects reality..

and calling non-materialists cuckoo..isn't that like racist or something? :smirk:

just kidding.

Not really, but seriously. You cannot prove it either way, which is why their are two major schools of philosophical thought, materialism and idealism.

In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

Which in my opinion, is the obviously correct one..since reality is indeed a mental construct, to think so otherwise would be to claim that you are somehow not using consciousness to interpret the world around you.


Probably unrelated, but I thought this article was pretty interesting..:grin:

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/16/decapitated-worms-regrow-heads-keep-old-memories/


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Edited by hTx (11/08/13 01:00 AM)


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19104585 - 11/08/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I really made a blunder there. I confused logic with science due to tiredness. I meant that i to my knowledge the scientific method and ideas of non materialism do not go well together. But that could be wrong too. I'm out of my depth here and i apologise for posting. The responses after  have helped me understand both sides of the argument a lot better.


--------------------
Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #19104923 - 11/08/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't call it a blunder - you seem to be on the realistic side of the fence IMO.

Sincerity is what stands in the way of fully debunking non-materialism. It should not exist objectively.

The problem is when one group demonstrate the truth or existence of non-materialism by evidence or argument which the rest can't perceive. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on the group of people claiming existence of non-materialism, some may say God is real but how do you prove 'Him'?


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As far as I assume to know...


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19105119 - 11/08/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ultimately, the burden of proof is on the group of people claiming existence of non-materialism




wouldn't the burden of proof be on both those who assert materialism and those who assert non-materialism? both are claims and both would require evidence to back up the claim. materialism is taken as a sort of 'obvious truth' to most people, but there's good arguments for both sides.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: deff]
    #19105233 - 11/08/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't the following smiley proof of materialism: :cool:? How about non-materialism - can it objectively be proven? Show me one single substantial proof of non-materialism and I am convinced. I can show you billions of materialistic evidence in return, sounds like a fair deal IMO.


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As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19105322 - 11/08/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't see a real duality between materialism and non-materialism. Science has been pushing back non-material ideas for a long time and the eventual result would seem to be the eradication of non-materialism. However, in the process things have been getting a bit fuzzy. Matter is entwined energy and the existence of matter cannot account for the complexity of momentum. This doesn't mean there is a soul, or life after death, or other whimsical ideas of non-material reality, but it does mean it may prove difficult or even impossible for science to describe consciousness and all of it's indicators in a way that unifies the intangibles with material law.

Experience, perception, feelings are non-material arising from a material process.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105348 - 11/08/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What do you mean with non-materialism ? The things that happen in ones mind ? Idealism ? Ideas ?
Why shouldn't they be real or become real or had been real before we had them ?
Maybe they even can be there in the constellations of the physical world without some mind to perceive or imagine them.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19105453 - 11/08/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't say they weren't real, just that the material involved doesn't seem to be the experience itself.

There seems to be a disconnect between 'an experience' and 'structured nerve signals'. I guess it's more a metaphysical postulation rather than a non-material postulation.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105546 - 11/08/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Explaining what I among others refer to as true reality to a *materealist* would be like explaining music to someone deaf... (no offense at all)

You say a plane ourside the three dimensions also must be material... ?
What I concieve of as the true reality is nothing but energy, infinite energy making up everything...

When someone uses their "left brain-hemosphere" they can expereance matereality, but there takes a "right brain-hemosphere" to understand things like art, music, feelings and especially infinity and eternity.

OC; do you understand the concept of infinity?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105628 - 11/08/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Energy is an aspect of material reality, but music appreciation could be non-material.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105637 - 11/08/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, because energy is a material...
(Or has any form of solidity if you may...)


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And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105690 - 11/08/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

E=Mc2

Lightning doesn't de facto constitute a non-material phenomena, nor does brain activity. Materialism stipulates that emergent phenomena are the result of the interaction of material substances (in whatever form). In contrast non-materialism postulates that material substance (mass or energy) is the result of non-material phenomena like ideas.

Someone could prove ghosts exist and it could still fall under the constraints of (yet to be discovered) material phenomena.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105702 - 11/08/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Feelings and fucus is (a type) energy... vibes-viberations transmitted and recieved.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105710 - 11/08/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Energy is an aspect of material reality, but music appreciation could be non-material.



So it's not possible visually observing sound waves with a good enough microscope?


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19105763 - 11/08/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Materialism and non-materealism are still humanmade descriptions of reality...

Feelings and focus is energy, and all is energy. Thus in the end; all is feelings and focus.
--->you can feel electricity too... which is electric energy...a feeling.

He said "music appreciation" btw... a feeling.

Music if art, is feelings, energy, in the form of sound... which is how most people percieve this energy, vibe, feeling.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Edited by Icyus (11/08/13 01:51 PM)


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105913 - 11/08/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He said "music appreciation" btw... a feeling.

Feelings stem from the brain and are thus material.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105920 - 11/08/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Materialism and non-materealism are still humanmade descriptions of reality...

Feelings and focus is energy, and all is energy. Thus in the end; all is feelings and focus.




Non-materialism doesn't question whether energy is material. The postulation is that consciousness and ideas exists independent of energy and form. You suggest that feelings are material and I suspect you're right but it still seems inexplicable and science has so far been unable to decipher consciousness which is what all feelings depend on to be felt.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105937 - 11/08/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That is because todays scientists have been selected by acedemia as they were good remembering and reciting. That is a lefthemosphere task, and thus most scientists in the acedemia atleast lack an understanding of the creative and emotional.

I do kot suggest feelings are material, but both feelings and energy immaterial... at the same time material.

Materealism and non-materealism are still humanmade decriptions of reality, thus flawed, and offcource relative. BuT; reality is still created by the observer, and thus we have a brain because we have a consciousness...........


Edited by Icyus (11/08/13 02:27 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19106005 - 11/08/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Materialism seems to be more closely related to 'working understandings' whereas non-materialism is based on 'mystic understandings' in which case there would be no basis for scientific discovery. It could be easy to assume that one day science will discover the mechanisms which give rise to consciousness but there's not a lot of clues so far.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19230750 - 12/05/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So OP, how do you explain Quantum physics? How does materialism explain particles that inexplicably pop into and out of existence? Spacetime isn't material, but it's there.


Edited by Thecrimson (12/05/13 11:08 AM)


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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