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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19096773 - 11/06/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry. figure its pretty obvious who I am responding too when I quote them. Does it notify you or something when you get a response?

As for my point it still stands and it is indeed a fact. If you disagree don't smile but instead debunk me.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19096809 - 11/06/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There is nothing to debunk as you have not posited a single argument.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/06/13 06:19 PM)


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096840 - 11/06/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
-nor has any verifiable real world knowledge ever been gained by such methods.





Evidence for this claim?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19096857 - 11/06/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It would only take one valid data point to refute my position.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096964 - 11/06/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

here is nothing to debunk as you have not posited a single argument.




He said that non-material things cannot be proven. I countered by stating that the opposite is true and in actual fact it is non-material things that cannot be proven and cannot be directly none.

Tell me, how is it that matter can be known and proven?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096966 - 11/06/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not trying to refute your claim, nor do I care to. Nor do I even necessarily disagree with the general point you are making in your opening post.
I'm asking you to substantiate what I quoted you saying, I'm curious as to where you got this idea and information and if its solid.

Onus Probandi :thumbup:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19096976 - 11/06/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No one be probing my onus! :nonono:


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19097019 - 11/06/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A little too late for that.



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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19097032 - 11/06/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Sorry. figure its pretty obvious who I am responding too when I quote them. Does it notify you or something when you get a response?

As for my point it still stands and it is indeed a fact. If you disagree don't smile but instead debunk me.




I asked you a question in regards to your statement, where's your reply?

Let's try again:

YOU WROTE THE FOLLOWING:

materialism cannot be proven.

I REPLIED WITH THE FOLLOWING:

How is this not a smiley: :smile:?

The following quote was merely directed towards the one you were addressing, which was me.

Quote:

Please don't address me, click "quick reply" on jimiandtheshroom27's post and then write your post or simply quote him.



I would suggest paying attention. If you need further assistance, please let me know with what.

Did you address the wrong person?


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As far as I assume to know...


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19097036 - 11/06/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

I don't think there can be a logical, or at least scientifically logical argument against materialism. I'd love to see one, but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena because such things cannot be measured (if they even exist at all).




This isn't true at all. There are many logical arguments against materialism, Idealism vs materialism is an age old debate. Counter to common belief materialism isn't an obvious fact.

In fact you have it backwards. Idealism cannot be denied whereas materialism cannot be proven. Maybe shocking but  it is true.




How can materialism not be proven?
Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: cez]
    #19097157 - 11/06/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.




This is only true as long as you already assume materialism to be true. What I want to make clear is that you cannot assume the world to be material. Your statement is equivalent to the statement,

materialism is true because the world is material.

How do you know what you experience and call "matter" is the cause of your experience? Matter is not what you experience with your mind, it is a representation of it. It is understood even from the materialist perspective that the world you experience is not matter itself. Matter is simply the THEORY which explains your experience. It cannot be known because every experience you have is merely a representation of matter.

George Berkley made this very clever case in point,

It is impossible to explain and describe matter without somehow making reference to your experience of matter. When you refer to matter you are really talking about your experiences/perceptions of matter, of what Berkley called ideas.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19097374 - 11/06/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

good post soldatheero - a very simple and obvious analogy to show how materialism cannot be proven from our current level of experience is to compare what we experience now to the experience of a dream at night. in the dream, the dream-universe seems real, solid, external, etc... but in hindsight we say it's just a play of the mind with no external reality to it.

materialists would say the entire dream was just chemical reactions in the brain - only then the problem of observing the apparently physical brain could likewise be a dream. so we cannot escape the consistent possibility that everything is an experience without a material support - idealism. so like you say, idealism cannot be proven false and materialism cannot be proven true :smile: (at least from our current situation of perception / existence)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: deff]
    #19097411 - 11/06/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is as lame as solipsism arguments. They are useless and lead nowhere thus making my point.

In the meantime y'all are using computers based on concepts of materialism.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19097424 - 11/06/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

well solipsism can't be proven false :laugh: !


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19098097 - 11/06/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.




This is only true as long as you already assume materialism to be true. What I want to make clear is that you cannot assume the world to be material. Your statement is equivalent to the statement,

materialism is true because the world is material.

How do you know what you experience and call "matter" is the cause of your experience? Matter is not what you experience with your mind, it is a representation of it. It is understood even from the materialist perspective that the world you experience is not matter itself. Matter is simply the THEORY which explains your experience. It cannot be known because every experience you have is merely a representation of matter.

George Berkley made this very clever case in point,

It is impossible to explain and describe matter without somehow making reference to your experience of matter. When you refer to matter you are really talking about your experiences/perceptions of matter, of what Berkley called ideas.





Interesting. :strokebeard:


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OfflineApo Epicurus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19098586 - 11/07/13 12:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Arguments against materialism hold because they deal in absolutes in the same way materialism does. For example Descartes's argument from doubt. Either mind and body are identical or not etc. etc. But none of these arguments hold in the context of physicalism because it doesn't argue that mind and body are identical. They don't need to be, the body simply provides for the mind. The best argument against physicalism is Chomsky's criticism and he simply reduces it to either identical to the naturalist project and therefore misleading, or not identical and therefore illegitimate. But Chomsky entirely overlooks concern. The physicalist project would be identical to the naturalist one if it weren't for the fact that it is not the details of the project that physicalists are concerned with (that would make them identical to the working scientist), but rather the potential limits of the project are. The argument for idealism being that the only interaction we could have with the physical world is through perceptions which are all in the mind so we have no reason to believe that everything is but an idea. But following from causality, something must provide for an idea. Simply saying that everything is an idea is inconclusive.


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OfflineApo Epicurus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19098651 - 11/07/13 01:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The point I am trying to make is not that causality implies physicalism, but rather that idealism is equally impossible to prove. Just because you cannot disprove something doesn't make it a truth, it simply makes it possible. For it to be a truth, it must be proven.


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OfflineApo Epicurus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: deff]
    #19100982 - 11/07/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Ludwig Wittgenstein: Private Language.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 3
    #19101953 - 11/07/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

This is as lame as solipsism arguments. They are useless and lead nowhere thus making my point.

.




Sorry but saying my argument is "lame" is not a counter-argument and simply claiming they "lead nowhere" with no backing means absolutely nothing except perhaps that you are ignorant as to where my arguments do lead.

Idealism is not solipsism. Claiming that matter is an illusion does not automatically imply that my mind is the only mind in existence nor does it imply that the world we experience is not an objective world.

Quote:

In the meantime y'all are using computers based on concepts of materialism




No we are using computers based on the laws of the objective reality. Sorry but scientific and mathamatical laws are not synonymous with materialism. Again, it is not an argument to claim, the world is material because the world is material. You commit the same fallacy I had pointed out earlier.


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: cez]
    #19103638 - 11/08/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

I don't think there can be a logical, or at least scientifically logical argument against materialism. I'd love to see one, but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena because such things cannot be measured (if they even exist at all).




This isn't true at all. There are many logical arguments against materialism, Idealism vs materialism is an age old debate. Counter to common belief materialism isn't an obvious fact.

In fact you have it backwards. Idealism cannot be denied whereas materialism cannot be proven. Maybe shocking but  it is true.




How can materialism not be proven?
Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.



That is all contained within consciousness.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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