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InvisibleOgla
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Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges
    #19100178 - 11/07/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

November 7, 2013

NEW YORK — The alleged mastermind behind the "darkweb" site Silk Road denies charges of drug dealing, money laundering and computer hacking, his lawyer said Wednesday after a brief court appearance.

Ross Ulbricht, 29, wearing a brown and navy jail uniform, stood quietly beside his attorney, Joshua Dratel, for a 30-minute hearing in U.S. District Court in Manhattan. Ulbricht, who was arrested last month in the science fiction section of a public library in San Francisco, arrived in New York on Tuesday.

He is accused of creating an underground website that allowed anonymous purchases of illegal drugs and hiring of hackers and hit men. Federal agents have seized electronic wallets containing $35 million worth of Bitcoin, a virtual currency used to transact business on the website.

The appearance in court Wednesday settled scheduling matters and did not deal with the allegations. Ulbricht returns to court Nov. 21.

Dratel said Ulbricht, a University of Texas graduate with a degree in physics, will plead not guilty and will ask a judge to release him on bail. Dratel said he will ask the judge to consider a bail package that could include property as collateral, electronic monitoring and travel restrictions.

"He is not the person that they are saying he is," Dratel said. "He is a regular person, someone who has never been in trouble."

Dratel would not say what Ulbricht did for a living after he left graduate school at Penn State, where he earned a prestigious research award in materials science for the 2008-09 academic year.

Federal agents say Ulbricht started Silk Road on Jan. 27, 2011. He moved to San Francisco, where he lived quietly with roommates who knew him as "Josh," in September 2012, court papers say.

Silk Road used an underground computer network known as "The Onion Router" or "Tor" that relays messages through at least three separate computer servers to disguise its users.

The Silk Road website had nearly a million customers and $1.2 billion in sales, court papers say. Silk Road's operator, known on the site as "Dread Pirate Roberts," allegedly collected commissions worth $80 million. FBI Agent Christopher Tarbell called Silk Road "the most sophisticated and extensive criminal marketplace on the Internet today."



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/06/alleged-silk-road-mastermind-appears-in-new-york-court/3457313/


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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Ogla] * 5
    #19100355 - 11/07/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It would be so funny if the evidence wouldn't suffice to nail him. :laugh2:

Not gonna happen though.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #19100592 - 11/07/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I hope he gets off :grin:

I don't think he will though, either.

it will come down to whether the prosecuting attorney can explain encryption and the tor network and how virtual vs physical servers etc. work to a bunch of random jury members


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Edited by NWlight (11/07/13 01:33 PM)


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: NWlight]
    #19100692 - 11/07/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He's fucked.  Only hope is jury nullification, but no jury's going to nullify a conviction for a man connected to selling heroin, cocaine, etc.


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19101224 - 11/07/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

he never sold anything though. other people sold through the site :shrug:

plus they are going to have to prove he actually tried to hire a hit. with what he's worth, i think it's feasible that someone tried to set him up, who knows.


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19101290 - 11/07/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I mean, the amount of money laundered through that site alone...they're gonna throw the book at him though.  And even if he somehow finds a way to dismiss all the evidence of his website activities, he's got $35 million in bitcoins locked up and no income tax paid on it - they could just Al Capone his ass.


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19101356 - 11/07/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

are bitcoins taxable currency ?
i mean sure, if you transfer them into USD


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19101416 - 11/07/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

it will come down to whether the prosecuting attorney can explain encryption and the tor network and how virtual vs physical servers etc.





Not really. The mistakes he made were made in real life, not on the internet.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19101550 - 11/07/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

it will come down to whether the prosecuting attorney can explain encryption and the tor network and how virtual vs physical servers etc.





Not really. The mistakes he made were made in real life, not on the internet.



the mistakes were IRL mistakes


but they led to discovery of his ILLEGAL online activities.


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: NWlight]
    #19102049 - 11/07/13 06:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i dont think he's going to get that much time. if he does. besides, when he gets out, he will have options considering he rain a business pretty much.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19102803 - 11/07/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If he got entrapped by an FBI UC for solicitation of murder then he is going to jail for a long time just on that charge alone...


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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #19103931 - 11/08/13 03:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The mere fact that cops entrap people for murder should tell us how fucked up the US is today. Down with the government!


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #19104308 - 11/08/13 08:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i thought entrapment was illegal.


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Offlinepartythug
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #19104311 - 11/08/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

CoIntelPro anyone? The bulk of the FBI's funds are used to infiltrate and "neutralize" radicals and dissidents, with a little extra on the side to nail the unapproved-but-successful capitalists who deal in "illegal" goods and services.

It's funny Al Capone was mentioned by another commenter. If anyone watches Boardwalk Empire or knows the story, Meyer Lansky was a crucial component of the founding of the CIA, hired to bust unions and "neutralize" radicals and dissidents (communists, anarchists, socialists) in Europe - especially the formerly Fascist countries, where exactly the same work was organized at the national level. It all goes round and round.

Yay


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Offlinepartythug
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19104316 - 11/08/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

StateOfMind404 said:
i thought entrapment was illegal.




Nah. That's a myth they thrive on in order to dupe us. The truth is the FBI uses every illegal method necessary to take undesirable elements down, up to and including assassination *cough Fred Hampton*.


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OfflineOldgregg
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Ogla]
    #19104363 - 11/08/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it'd be crazy if bitcoins when waaaay down and the 35m he has turns into $35


also the feds can't access the money right? that must really be pissing them off


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Ogla]
    #19106117 - 11/08/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

if oj simpson can get off of murder surely ulbricht can too. he'll johnnie cochran their ass, you'll see, the glove wont fit.


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OfflineD.M.T
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19106161 - 11/08/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

nah its drug money that they can legally seize easier instead of directing it to the courts and attorneys. in OJs case he was rich legitimately so they can't just steal his money. it would be a miracle if the glove doesn't fit Ulbricht.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: D.M.T]
    #19106361 - 11/08/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If he gets convicted then I strongly believe his final "fuck you" will be to refuse to hand over his BTC


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OfflineLord_McLovin
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: NWlight]
    #19108971 - 11/09/13 03:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't hand them over. :shrug:
Unless of course, I could buy my ass free with a part of it.
If he gets lucky, drugs will be legal by the time he gets out of prison and those bitcoins are gonna be A LOT more worth at that point.


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Offlineilluminati
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19109210 - 11/09/13 06:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

StateOfMind404 said:
are bitcoins taxable currency ?
i mean sure, if you transfer them into USD





I'm pretty sure I read in Forbes not too long ago that a bunch of old rich dudes were transferring money into BTC to avoid taxes, so I'm not sure if BTC is a non-taxable item, or if it's more of just a way to hide the money.  I think if the IRS knows you have money, they're going to want a piece of it.

Either way, Ulbricht will likely be famous forever.  Part of me thinks if I were this fucked, I'd just go down as a martyr for the drug war and never give up that $35M regardless of the jail time.  In keeping with the Capone mention, Ulbricht may be written into history books along side Capone for this kind of thing.


--------------------
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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #19109893 - 11/09/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sonamdrukpa said:
He's fucked.  Only hope is jury nullification, but no jury's going to nullify a conviction for a man connected to selling heroin, cocaine, etc.







Well, if they're careful about jury selection, then you're probably right. Of course, someone like me might be willing to say "not guilty" on general principle in a case like this. But someone like me would probably never make it on the jury.


Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him, even if there are people on the jury who are highly sympathetic to the drug issues....


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19110583 - 11/09/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him




It was not "alleged" solicitation. He actually transferred bitcoins over to the feds wallet for the hit to take place, and asked for photographic evidence for proof of the hit


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19110908 - 11/09/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

LOL, isn't this the same government that has told its agencies to fabricate evidence/cases ? this is of course linked to the DEA and the NSA, but im not going to put it past the FBI as well in this case either considering the situation


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19111364 - 11/09/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

StateOfMind404 said:
LOL, isn't this the same government that has told its agencies to fabricate evidence/cases ? this is of course linked to the DEA and the NSA, but im not going to put it past the FBI as well in this case either considering the situation





If you read the criminal complaint it is pretty cut and dry. People want to make him out to be a saint, but the fact remains he tried to have people killed on more than one occasion


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Invisible404
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19111424 - 11/09/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That may be, but it still has to be proven in a court of law. innocent until proven guilty.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19111497 - 11/09/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

im sure he used the escrow system and encrypted those messages to the hitman. he can easily say it wasn't him if they don't find any evidence that he wrote it from his computer.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19112181 - 11/09/13 09:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
im sure he used the escrow system and encrypted those messages to the hitman. he can easily say it wasn't him if they don't find any evidence that he wrote it from his computer.





Except they have his cpu and a lot of his encryption info, have you read the criminal complaint?


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19112188 - 11/09/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i have not. but feel free to post it


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InvisibleCidneyIndole
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19114247 - 11/10/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him




It was not "alleged" solicitation. He actually transferred bitcoins over to the feds wallet for the hit to take place, and asked for photographic evidence for proof of the hit







Were you actually there? For both sides? Do you have proof? Are you omniscient? Should I put on underwear when I'm typing at you?


I've read most of the publicly released paperwork, thank you.


Do you understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means?


Alleged solicitation.


Do you believe everything the federal government says? Like marijuana is a very harmful, dangerous and evil drug, but antidepressants and amphetamines are suitable for widespread use in children? You do realize they've gotten "the wrong man" before? Shit does happen. Either way, there is such thing as due process, and "innocent until proven guilty.




"Because I said so"  =/=  PROOF



The feds alleged that this event happened. Even if we take their word as to the factuality of this event, it is still an unproven allegation that the person who transferred the bitcoin for the hit, aka the online identity known as "Dread Pirate Roberts" is one and the same person as Ross Ulbricht.



I do assume, of course, that the feds have some type of "proof" otherwise they would not risk trying the case. However, until this man has had his day in court, I will say "alleged" and "allegedly."


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19116891 - 11/10/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Then again, the alleged solicitation of "hits" really could screw him




It was not "alleged" solicitation. He actually transferred bitcoins over to the feds wallet for the hit to take place, and asked for photographic evidence for proof of the hit







Were you actually there? For both sides? Do you have proof? Are you omniscient? Should I put on underwear when I'm typing at you?


I've read most of the publicly released paperwork, thank you.


Do you understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means?


Alleged solicitation.


Do you believe everything the federal government says? Like marijuana is a very harmful, dangerous and evil drug, but antidepressants and amphetamines are suitable for widespread use in children? You do realize they've gotten "the wrong man" before? Shit does happen. Either way, there is such thing as due process, and "innocent until proven guilty.




"Because I said so"  =/=  PROOF



The feds alleged that this event happened. Even if we take their word as to the factuality of this event, it is still an unproven allegation that the person who transferred the bitcoin for the hit, aka the online identity known as "Dread Pirate Roberts" is one and the same person as Ross Ulbricht.



I do assume, of course, that the feds have some type of "proof" otherwise they would not risk trying the case. However, until this man has had his day in court, I will say "alleged" and "allegedly."





You obviously have not read the criminal complaint. Ross Ulbricht made some pretty stupid mistakes very early on. And no, I do not believe everything the government tells me, but it is pretty obvious he is DPR.

The dude posted shit about silk road days within it coming online. He posted on various boards including this one and a tech one about pgp encryption and tor and whatnot. He used the same screen name for different sites, a screen name that was linked to his email address, WHICH WAS HIS REAL NAME!

ANd after reading the complaint it is pretty clear that he tried to order the hit, though I do think he was tricked into it a little bit. But he haggled with the price stating that he had to order a hit before and got a better deal that time . . .


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19116895 - 11/10/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the glove wont fit, end of story guys


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19116906 - 11/10/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
the glove wont fit, end of story guys





It's gonna fit, dude is FUCKED

Not that I am happy about it, but dude is FUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED!!!


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19116914 - 11/10/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

no he isn't end of story  :foreverbatman:


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: zZZz]
    #19116990 - 11/10/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
no he isn't end of story  :foreverbatman:





Lol okay


hes fucked


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19120161 - 11/11/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You obviously have not read the criminal complaint. Ross Ulbricht made some pretty stupid mistakes very early on. And no, I do not believe everything the government tells me, but it is pretty obvious he is DPR.

The dude posted shit about silk road days within it coming online. He posted on various boards including this one and a tech one about pgp encryption and tor and whatnot. He used the same screen name for different sites, a screen name that was linked to his email address, WHICH WAS HIS REAL NAME!

ANd after reading the complaint it is pretty clear that he tried to order the hit, though I do think he was tricked into it a little bit. But he haggled with the price stating that he had to order a hit before and got a better deal that time . . .








I told you that I have read it. It seems like you obviously have not understood my post.


Due process. Innocent until proven guilty ---->  Day In Court.  End of story (for now.)


Yes, I read about all the stuff that you mentioned. You don't find it just a tiny bit odd, that a guy who was smart enough to set up the silk road would make such major rookie mistakes as singing up for forums where he would talk about silk-road and related stuff, with a g-mail account linked to his real name? That's epic levels of stupid. And it doesn't quite make sense to me. Either it's not him, and someone is setting him up as the fall guy, or he had a subconscious desire to get caught or something. Either that or he really is brilliant in some ways, but horrible with attention to detail, or I don't quite know....  What I do know is that the story I'm getting from the govt's papers doesn't entirely make sense to me, and I'm waiting to hear more.



And back to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing for a minute.... anyone can set up a g-mail account with my name. That proves nothing. What other proof linking DPR to Ulbricht have you actually seen / read?  The ID thing, I guess could be one. But that could also fit in with the scenario of someone trying to frame Ulbricht, and most of it is based on the word of various government employees. That one did also strike me as a bit odd. Kind of a dumb, rookie move, to the point where it seems a little strange he'd make such a mistake. But less so, than the other one.



I have a "fun" little off the wall theory / speculation. I'm going to assume you've seen the longish "interview" video where Ulbricht talks with his old friend, from before the bust and all that stuff...?  (If not, go check it out.)  Anyway, my theory (which I'm not alone in, as I have read one or two other comments online speculating to this effect)is.... what if it's the friend that is actually "DPR" and Ulbricht is the planned fall guy, the patsy, and has no real relation to the road?  Or what if the friend is actually DPR, and it was agreed that Ulbricht would serve as the fall guy in such a situation?  Or he was an employee of the road, but not DPR, and he's being framed? 


A bit off the wall? Perhaps. But it would explain some of the really dumb "rookie" mistakes in a way that seems to actually make sense.




Of course, this is all pure speculation based on some media reports and claims from government documents. Then again, that's all you're doing, too. You're just doing it in concert with the official report. In attempt to show me that I'm wrong, you point to some of the "big mistakes" that Ulbricht made. But I repeat, these are allegations as he has not had his day in court. If these were legally considered proven facts, he'd already be sentenced and serving his time. That's not how the system works.



And therefore, my initial point still stands. IMHO you're wrong to question my use of the word "alleged."  You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. But I have respect for due process, and for the concept of "innocent until proven guilty."  Have you ever been accused of a crime you did not commit? I have. It is one of the most frustrating, depressing, powerless, enraging experiences you can have, to know that someone is making inaccurate claims about you, that could get you in serious trouble. To know that 9 times out of 10 the defendant is NOT given the benefit of the doubt, by pretty much anyone. We often ASSUME that if someone is being charged with a crime, they must be guilty. This is not right, either in a sense of morality or correctness. And that is why our system is set up the way it is. Mistakes happen. Sometimes they're railroaded by an overzealous prosecutor, etc. Sometimes they're framed. Sometimes they are honest mistakes.



And even if not. Even if it's all 100% true, and accurate, It has NOT yet been proven in court, and until it is, Ross Ulbricht, like any defendant, is legally considered an INNOCENT man, innocent of the crimes he ALLEGEDLY committed.


tl;dr


Believe what you want, but even the law says he's innocent at this point, until the allegations have been proven in court, and a decision is reached.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19120613 - 11/11/13 01:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CidneyIndole said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You obviously have not read the criminal complaint. Ross Ulbricht made some pretty stupid mistakes very early on. And no, I do not believe everything the government tells me, but it is pretty obvious he is DPR.

The dude posted shit about silk road days within it coming online. He posted on various boards including this one and a tech one about pgp encryption and tor and whatnot. He used the same screen name for different sites, a screen name that was linked to his email address, WHICH WAS HIS REAL NAME!

ANd after reading the complaint it is pretty clear that he tried to order the hit, though I do think he was tricked into it a little bit. But he haggled with the price stating that he had to order a hit before and got a better deal that time . . .








I told you that I have read it. It seems like you obviously have not understood my post.


Due process. Innocent until proven guilty ---->  Day In Court.  End of story (for now.)


Yes, I read about all the stuff that you mentioned. You don't find it just a tiny bit odd, that a guy who was smart enough to set up the silk road would make such major rookie mistakes as singing up for forums where he would talk about silk-road and related stuff, with a g-mail account linked to his real name? That's epic levels of stupid. And it doesn't quite make sense to me. Either it's not him, and someone is setting him up as the fall guy, or he had a subconscious desire to get caught or something. Either that or he really is brilliant in some ways, but horrible with attention to detail, or I don't quite know....  What I do know is that the story I'm getting from the govt's papers doesn't entirely make sense to me, and I'm waiting to hear more.



And back to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing for a minute.... anyone can set up a g-mail account with my name. That proves nothing. What other proof linking DPR to Ulbricht have you actually seen / read?  The ID thing, I guess could be one. But that could also fit in with the scenario of someone trying to frame Ulbricht, and most of it is based on the word of various government employees. That one did also strike me as a bit odd. Kind of a dumb, rookie move, to the point where it seems a little strange he'd make such a mistake. But less so, than the other one.



I have a "fun" little off the wall theory / speculation. I'm going to assume you've seen the longish "interview" video where Ulbricht talks with his old friend, from before the bust and all that stuff...?  (If not, go check it out.)  Anyway, my theory (which I'm not alone in, as I have read one or two other comments online speculating to this effect)is.... what if it's the friend that is actually "DPR" and Ulbricht is the planned fall guy, the patsy, and has no real relation to the road?  Or what if the friend is actually DPR, and it was agreed that Ulbricht would serve as the fall guy in such a situation?  Or he was an employee of the road, but not DPR, and he's being framed? 


A bit off the wall? Perhaps. But it would explain some of the really dumb "rookie" mistakes in a way that seems to actually make sense.




Of course, this is all pure speculation based on some media reports and claims from government documents. Then again, that's all you're doing, too. You're just doing it in concert with the official report. In attempt to show me that I'm wrong, you point to some of the "big mistakes" that Ulbricht made. But I repeat, these are allegations as he has not had his day in court. If these were legally considered proven facts, he'd already be sentenced and serving his time. That's not how the system works.



And therefore, my initial point still stands. IMHO you're wrong to question my use of the word "alleged."  You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. But I have respect for due process, and for the concept of "innocent until proven guilty."  Have you ever been accused of a crime you did not commit? I have. It is one of the most frustrating, depressing, powerless, enraging experiences you can have, to know that someone is making inaccurate claims about you, that could get you in serious trouble. To know that 9 times out of 10 the defendant is NOT given the benefit of the doubt, by pretty much anyone. We often ASSUME that if someone is being charged with a crime, they must be guilty. This is not right, either in a sense of morality or correctness. And that is why our system is set up the way it is. Mistakes happen. Sometimes they're railroaded by an overzealous prosecutor, etc. Sometimes they're framed. Sometimes they are honest mistakes.



And even if not. Even if it's all 100% true, and accurate, It has NOT yet been proven in court, and until it is, Ross Ulbricht, like any defendant, is legally considered an INNOCENT man, innocent of the crimes he ALLEGEDLY committed.


tl;dr


Believe what you want, but even the law says he's innocent at this point, until the allegations have been proven in court, and a decision is reached.




The law does not say he is innocent. The law says he is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. There is a difference. LiquidGlass is already convinced he's guilty thus skipping this presumption of innocence. To say he is innocent at this point is a guess.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: CidneyIndole]
    #19120944 - 11/11/13 02:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well apparently you need to read it over again, or you did not read the whole thing.

He did not actually mention silk road on an account that was linked to his email. What he did was use the name altoid to post on various forums about silk road to get the name out there and tell people it was online.

Then he used the name altoid on a tech website. On that website he did not mention the silk road at all, and this was the website he had his email linked to. And then he changed his email link shortly after posting, but it was too late.


Not to mention him posting stuff like this to various social media sites:
Quote:

I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and agression amongst mankind. Just as slavery has been abolished most everywhere, I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end. The most widespread and systemic use of force is amongst institutions and governments, so this is my current point of effort.
The best way to change a government is to change the minds of the governed, however. To that end, I am creating an economic simulation to give people a first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without the systemic use of force.





He's fucked!


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19120964 - 11/11/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

While your points remain valid, I don't think he's fucked when theres millions of dollars involved. The fbi could use him to their advantage, there not going to throw him away without squeezing every last bit of valuable information from him, so he might have some fighting ground :shrug:


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: WHOISDRO]
    #19125006 - 11/12/13 05:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and agression amongst mankind. Just as slavery has been abolished most everywhere, I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end. The most widespread and systemic use of force is amongst institutions and governments, so this is my current point of effort.
The best way to change a government is to change the minds of the governed, however. To that end, I am creating an economic simulation to give people a first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without the systemic use of force.




Kinda makes it hard to believe that he would order hitmen to kill people.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass] * 1
    #19125863 - 11/12/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ojom said:
The law does not say he is innocent. The law says he is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. There is a difference. LiquidGlass is already convinced he's guilty thus skipping this presumption of innocence. To say he is innocent at this point is a guess.






Fair enough point, but that somewhat seems like semantics to me. I was not trying to say that he is magically innocent, until a jury says otherwise. I was saying that I'm going to "presume" him innocent, until his day in court. :shrug:





Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Well apparently you need to read it over again, or you did not read the whole thing.






I did. And I don't see why you're saying this.



Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
He did not actually mention silk road on an account that was linked to his email.






Actually, he did.... didn't he?


Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
What he did was use the name altoid to post on various forums about silk road to get the name out there and tell people it was online.

Then he used the name altoid on a tech website. On that website he did not mention the silk road at all, and this was the website he had his email linked to. And then he changed his email link shortly after posting, but it was too late.







Wait... I'm confused. Isn't that exactly what you just said he didn't do?  :confused:  "He did not actually mention silk road on an account that was linked to his email?"


I thought he used both the same screen name, and the same email for both accounts. Perhaps I'm remembering that wrong, and it was only the same screen name. If so, that makes the link back to him even more tenuous.  "Altoid?"  Isn't that a popular mint?  Okay, it would still be a hell of a coincidence. But like I said, if he only used the Ulbricht g-mail for the tech site, the link is even more tenuous than I believed.


Either way, I don't really see how that relates to my point, and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law....


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Lord_McLovin]
    #19126613 - 11/12/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:

I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and agression amongst mankind. Just as slavery has been abolished most everywhere, I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end. The most widespread and systemic use of force is amongst institutions and governments, so this is my current point of effort.
The best way to change a government is to change the minds of the governed, however. To that end, I am creating an economic simulation to give people a first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without the systemic use of force.




Kinda makes it hard to believe that he would order hitmen to kill people.





Lol ok, so anyone who says something like, "I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end" is incapable of ordering a hit on someone to protect their billion dollar business. People say stuff like that all of the time and then go commit atrocities. ANd when he wrote that he probably never even thought he would be put into that postion . . .


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19126865 - 11/12/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Lord_McLovin said:
Quote:

I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and agression amongst mankind. Just as slavery has been abolished most everywhere, I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end. The most widespread and systemic use of force is amongst institutions and governments, so this is my current point of effort.
The best way to change a government is to change the minds of the governed, however. To that end, I am creating an economic simulation to give people a first-hand experience of what it would be like to live in a world without the systemic use of force.




Kinda makes it hard to believe that he would order hitmen to kill people.





Lol ok, so anyone who says something like, "I believe violence, coercion and all forms of force by one person over another can come to an end" is incapable of ordering a hit on someone to protect their billion dollar business. People say stuff like that all of the time and then go commit atrocities. ANd when he wrote that he probably never even thought he would be put into that postion . . .






still has to be proven. i also still don't think he was that stupid, and i still don't trust the government's word on the matter, or much at all.

:shrug:


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19127037 - 11/12/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Being around drugs for so long I've seen people get nailed with their dick to the wall on a lot more vague circumstantial evidence than the gov't has on Ross, unfortunately. They were able to track the location the SR admin was logged on, a cafe across the street from where he was residing. The evidence is pretty damning, the whole 'altoid' thing is just how they started suspecting him, not how they actually figured out it was him. They traced the admin log-on right to the library where he was chatting with informants and co-conspirators.  Hence how they found him


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: D.M.T]
    #19127482 - 11/12/13 05:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

They traced the admin log-on right to the library where he was chatting with informants and co-conspirators.  Hence how they found him





I think it also had to do with the fact that a vendor from SR that had supposedly been busted sent him some fake ID's right to his residence


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: D.M.T]
    #19128547 - 11/12/13 08:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They've got ross on solicitation of murder from a FBI UC.  If that's true he will go away on that charge alone 100%.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #19130233 - 11/13/13 07:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

what is a 'UC'?


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: 404]
    #19130238 - 11/13/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

under-cover


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: B_BOY]
    #19132952 - 11/13/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

An undercover would be a CI. Can be interchangeable.

CI = Confidential informant

UC = Unindicted co-conspirator

Or at least that's what it means in most federal indictments I've read. The UC might face separate indictments federally or state or might be granted immunity in return for snitching so they aren't named in the docs.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19133037 - 11/13/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You obviously have not read the criminal complaint.



You obviously haven't read many criminal complaints.  They always say a lot of shit.  Not all of it will be proven true.  Maybe none of it will.  In the end, a complaint isn't evidence, and it has very little bearing on the actual case should it go to trial.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19133063 - 11/13/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
You obviously have not read the criminal complaint.



You obviously haven't read many criminal complaints.  They always say a lot of shit.  Not all of it will be proven true.  Maybe none of it will.  In the end, a complaint isn't evidence, and it has very little bearing on the actual case should it go to trial.





Well in this case he it is pretty obvious he is fucked, but only time will tell


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19133075 - 11/13/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He very well might be.  On the other hand, the prosecutor has an uphill battle trying to get a jury to grasp much of the technical aspects of this case should it go to trial.  It's certainly not going to be an easy case to try.

Of course, it'll likely plead out.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19133209 - 11/13/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Unfortunately I think it will play out the opposite with the defense attorney having an uphill battle explaining the technical aspects of SR. Drugs and murder along with the evidence that they do have, as well as the guy he tried getting whacked is going to testify against him, can only assume this is going to be one of those guilty until proven innocent without a doubt scenarios. After all it's drugs AND murder. to the average moron this is 'proof drugs lead to violence and must be stopped.'


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: D.M.T]
    #19133244 - 11/13/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He's not charged with murder.  He's charged with conspiracy to traffic narcotics, conspiracy to launder money, and conspiracy to commit computer fraud.  If it goes to trial, the prosecution is going to have to delve pretty deep into the technology to prove the case.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19133364 - 11/13/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

We might witness the first viable use of the chewbaca defense.

In which the jury members are so confused by the case they have no choice but to acquit :lol:


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: NWlight] * 1
    #19145492 - 11/16/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have to post it. :laugh2:


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19145901 - 11/16/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
He's not charged with murder.  He's charged with conspiracy to traffic narcotics, conspiracy to launder money, and conspiracy to commit computer fraud.  If it goes to trial, the prosecution is going to have to delve pretty deep into the technology to prove the case.




There are either murder or murder conspiracy charges. They might be separate to these particular charges I'm not sure, but you know they wouldn't let that go without charging him. He could have a reasonable defense saying its entrapment in that case but im not sure. it would depend on what exactly took place in the conversations.

now back to the 'murder or murder conspiracy' part. The reason I say murder and not murder conspiracy is that he did conspire to have a murder committed (allegedly) but at the same time he believed the murders were actually committed which in the eyes of the law might be different than conspiring whether or not it actually happened.

for instance if i sell you an NBOMe or a blank blotter as LSD, it doesn't matter you're going to be charged with selling LSD and may even receive the same punishment depending on circumstance. there is the confusion, imo. though it probably is just conspiracy.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19145937 - 11/16/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
He's not charged with murder.  He's charged with conspiracy to traffic narcotics, conspiracy to launder money, and conspiracy to commit computer fraud.  If it goes to trial, the prosecution is going to have to delve pretty deep into the technology to prove the case.





Apparently you have not done proper research. He is also being chagred with attempted witness murder, and use of interstate commerce facilities in comission of murder-for-hire


I say again, he is FUCKED.

Although I would think it was awesome if he somehow got off . . . but he wont


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19147967 - 11/17/13 12:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If he was attempting to murder people then I completely support him getting thrown in jail permanently.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19148556 - 11/17/13 06:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:

Apparently you have not done proper research. He is also being chagred with attempted witness murder, and use of interstate commerce facilities in comission of murder-for-hire




That's certainly not part of the federal case.  He might be charged separately in a state court for attempted murder, but I know nothing about that.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19149408 - 11/17/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

were detracting a little from the point here. in the top-right corner of the indictments you can see specifically the charges. Maryland indictment is as follows

new york charges which are the ones he is currently going to court for:



the new york charges dont mention murder. those are specifically large-scale drug charges, computer hacking, and money laundering through use of the computer.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19150013 - 11/17/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:

Apparently you have not done proper research. He is also being chagred with attempted witness murder, and use of interstate commerce facilities in comission of murder-for-hire




That's certainly not part of the federal case.  He might be charged separately in a state court for attempted murder, but I know nothing about that.





While it is in a different state, it is still in a federal court. This dude is going away for a loooooong time


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19150564 - 11/17/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't realize there was a second indictment.  In any case, he's still innocent until proven guilty.  No evidence has been presented, and we don't know what will actually end up happening should this go to trial.

I wouldn't be surprised if he pled to a single charge and did 5 years or less.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19156494 - 11/18/13 07:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Really?  Obviously you have a lot more experience in this, but this is the sort of get the feds jizz theirselves over for ages...I can't imagine they'd be happy with anything less than a couple decades in jail.  The prosecution does have a lot of work to do explaining exactly how the crime worked, but it's also just as hard explaining why he didn't commit a crime, and we all know that the benefit of the doubt, regardless of what the law says, goes out the window the minute the jury hears about the poor children and the oodles of crack and heroin this guy helped send out...


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: sonamdrukpa] * 1
    #19156521 - 11/18/13 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's very early to be counting chickens, though.  The feds might only have a solid case for one charge.  It is very common to overcharge in these cases, and most likely the prosecutor has done so for the purpose of negotiating back to a position that he/she thinks is fair based on the strength of the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if he got life in prison, either.

It's way too early to be calling the outcome.


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Re: Ulbricht pleads not guilty to Silk Road Charges [Re: Enlil]
    #19156538 - 11/18/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Fair enough.


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