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Offlinejet li
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: happyfunguy]
    #19097447 - 11/06/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I sway back and forth, because I have a bad habit of pronouncing it sill-uh-sigh-b, as I did for many years lol.  But I am gradually working towards always pronouncing it sigh-lahts-yoo-bee.


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Offlinerev0kadavur
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: canid]
    #19097712 - 11/06/13 09:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

canid said: pronunciation nazis





I was reluctant to put it that way, but I wanted to sooo bad... it can be super annoying!

But I am wanting to learning what I do and dont say right!
-not that it will likely change much...

Curious about how other people say Boletes and Boletus...
I say Bow-lets (Often Ba-lets when I speak too fast) & Bowl-lee-tuss


--------------------
- Question # Everything -



Edited by rev0kadavur (11/06/13 09:08 PM)


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: generalsherman55]
    #19097876 - 11/06/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think there really is an "official" way to pronounce the names.

I've gotten to have lots of conversations with various PhDs, and they vary in how they pronounce them. In particular, the way they pronounce them depends very strongly on where they were educated.

Else Vellinga noted that the pronunciations we use here are often very different than the ones she learned in Europe, with Inocybe being one name she pointed out in particular.


Tom Volk teaches botanic Latin, and his website has lots of little recordings of him demonstrating how he pronounces many of the names. I would consider him a pretty good authority.

Another good rule to remember is that mushroom names should always be pronounced with great authority. Which is a joke way of saying that we have no way of knowing how the ancient Romans would have pronounced them, and it doesn't really matter at this point how they would anyway.

The way I have heard almost all PhDs pronounce Psilocybe is "sigh-loss-uh-bee", with the emphasis on "loss". I can't say that it's the way I would have thought, but I go along with it because it's for communication and it's easier to communicate if I pronounce it the same as they do.



As far as the discussion about how mushroom names are changing, for the vast majority of the names, the only thing that has changed is really which name is the most currently accepted. For almost all mushrooms, any of the published names are going to be a correct and unique identifier of the species being named, even if they aren't the most currently accepted name.

For example, Connopus acervatus K.W. Hughes, Mather & R.H. Petersen is the official current name, but Agaricus acervatus Fr., Collybia acervata (Fr.) P. Kumm., and Gymnopus acervatus (Fr.) Murrill are names that all are for the same species. If you use one of the older names, then anybody that actually knows much about the species will still know what you're talking about. If you're going to publish, then you need to spend the time to use the most current name. If you're talking with other mushroom heads, then you don't need to be too worried about it. You mostly want to use the same name as the people around you so that you minimize confusion.

The stuff after each name is who published that name first. When talking about a species, it's important because if you want to know what defines the description of a species you really need to go back to the originally published description. Sometimes the original description contains things you might not expect.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineCoen
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: jet li]
    #19097888 - 11/06/13 09:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've studied (classical) Latin.  There really is no "correct" way you should be pronouncing these things.  For example, in Classical Latin (i.e., what old J. Caesar would have spoken), the "c" character always represents the "k" sound, i.e., a velar stop.  Thus "salicinus" would have been pronounced "sa-lee-kee-noos".  After the fall of the Roman Empire Latin became the language of the church and then of science and pronunciation conventions changed.  So when that guy is pronouncing "salicinus" on that https://soundcloud.com/mayda-1/ site as "sa-lee-tsee-noos", that's a Church Latin innovation.

Another complicating factor is that there's a bunch of Greek mixed in here (e.g., "psilo" and "cyb", etc.) and Classical Greek has sounds (phonemes) in it that aren't in Latin and modern Greek is different from Classical Greek.  So should we pronounce this stuff like Ceasar would or like Descartes would or like Socrates would or like Kazantzakis would or ... ?  you get the point.

I'm guessing there probably are prescriptive guides for how academic Latin/Greek names should be pronounced, but it's really all just arbitrary rules.  I guess it's a status thing for some people.

I find what's really helpful is understanding what the words mean and the connections with English (or whatever your language is).  That helps you remember the names (and how they're spelled).  For example, "cybe", from a Greek word meaning "head", is on like every second Genus name and it's kind of easy to remember if you think of English "cap" or "chief" or Latin "caput" = "head".  Similarly, "aeruginosus" is pretty common and refers to that bluish rusting of copper and is related to Latin "aes/aeris" meaning "copper" which is related to English "ore".

Anyways, I could ramble about this stuff a lot more but I'll stop myself here.  Even if you're not really interested in all this etymological stuff, I do think it's helpful to know what the names of your favorite shrooms mean so that they're not just a bunch of arbitrary characters:

Psilo-cybe = bald-head
Gymno-pilus = naked-cap
cyan-escens = blue-becoming
azur-escens = blue-becoming
baeo-cystis = small-bladder
ovoideo-cystidiata = egglike-cystidia (sterile cell type)
semi-lanceata = half-spear-shaped

Arora contains a nice little dictionary of the relevant Greek and Latin bits...


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InvisibleRuralAnomaly
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: Coen]
    #19098201 - 11/06/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

great question, great thread for new folks, great info, Coen, thanks for taking the time - i love entomology.  adds another layer of understanding and a hook for remembering other particulars


--------------------
bite my basidiocarp


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OfflineCoen
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: RuralAnomaly]
    #19098232 - 11/06/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Hey, so long as I'm not being annoying, I will continue to talk about Latin.  Trouble is, that becomes pretty annoying pretty quick to a large cross-section of the population :smile:

Sorry man, I gotta post Wrong Superhero -- just couldn't resist ...



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InvisibleRuralAnomaly
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: Coen]
    #19098296 - 11/06/13 11:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

lmao... sometimes that spell checker is too easy to click,ironically enough i butchered *etymology*  the first time by adding an n and hit the suggestion w/o actual thinking.

great cartoon too, and yes, ramble on plz


--------------------
bite my basidiocarp


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InvisibleMr Piggy
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: RuralAnomaly]
    #19098703 - 11/07/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I thought it was:

Sci-loss-oh-bee?


--------------------
🅃🄴🄰🄼 🄵🄾🄸🄻


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Offlinegeneralsherman55
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: ToxicMan]
    #19101438 - 11/07/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ToxicMan said:
I don't think there really is an "official" way to pronounce the names.

I've gotten to have lots of conversations with various PhDs, and they vary in how they pronounce them. In particular, the way they pronounce them depends very strongly on where they were educated.

Else Vellinga noted that the pronunciations we use here are often very different than the ones she learned in Europe, with Inocybe being one name she pointed out in particular.


Tom Volk teaches botanic Latin, and his website has lots of little recordings of him demonstrating how he pronounces many of the names. I would consider him a pretty good authority.

Another good rule to remember is that mushroom names should always be pronounced with great authority. Which is a joke way of saying that we have no way of knowing how the ancient Romans would have pronounced them, and it doesn't really matter at this point how they would anyway.

The way I have heard almost all PhDs pronounce Psilocybe is "sigh-loss-uh-bee", with the emphasis on "loss". I can't say that it's the way I would have thought, but I go along with it because it's for communication and it's easier to communicate if I pronounce it the same as they do.



As far as the discussion about how mushroom names are changing, for the vast majority of the names, the only thing that has changed is really which name is the most currently accepted. For almost all mushrooms, any of the published names are going to be a correct and unique identifier of the species being named, even if they aren't the most currently accepted name.

For example, Connopus acervatus K.W. Hughes, Mather & R.H. Petersen is the official current name, but Agaricus acervatus Fr., Collybia acervata (Fr.) P. Kumm., and Gymnopus acervatus (Fr.) Murrill are names that all are for the same species. If you use one of the older names, then anybody that actually knows much about the species will still know what you're talking about. If you're going to publish, then you need to spend the time to use the most current name. If you're talking with other mushroom heads, then you don't need to be too worried about it. You mostly want to use the same name as the people around you so that you minimize confusion.

The stuff after each name is who published that name first. When talking about a species, it's important because if you want to know what defines the description of a species you really need to go back to the originally published description. Sometimes the original description contains things you might not expect.




This is great stuff dude.

can i get a link to Tom Volk on mushroom pronunciation?


--------------------


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InvisibleRuralAnomaly
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Re: a question on mushroom language and latin names [Re: generalsherman55]
    #19102527 - 11/07/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/

most of the links are broken


Edited by RuralAnomaly (11/07/13 08:05 PM)


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