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Invisiblejpack666
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Registered: 10/01/13
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BEFORE + AFTER the hyphal knots (pinning)
    #19096651 - 11/06/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hi all :smile:

It's easy to get a feel for how hyphal knots turn into pins when doing a few internet searches, but not as easy to find info about the prior steps.

What I mean is what is the process that makes the knots emerge?

Day 1, 4 days after casing. Introduced to FC


Next day, FC+1


Next day, FC+2


Next day, FC+3


Next day FC+4


Next day FC+5 (casing + 9) (note to self, Seeds day 0)


Next day FC+6 (casing + 10) started rehydrating the verm casing surface with gentle misting


Next day FC+7


Next day FC+8 (note to self, more fae)


Next day FC+9 (I see a knot turning into a pin bellow the surface)


Next day FC+10 (tiny pin is now above casing surface, at center of picture)

I just added this in as per time of my last edit

Text bellow is from day one, see nov 17th's reply for first update since first pin appeared.
This was originally for help getting a pin, now I will be updating daily to get support for the next phase... (Still, this is my first attempt at this)

I currently have an experiment with lots of hyphal strands extending on the surface of the casing, but no knots yet.

I am looking for your help: I'm wondering when you would consider it time to go to full FAE instead of just GE... Before the knots, when the knots appear, or when knots become pins?

Or is it even earlier... That's what I had done at first. Switching to FAE as soon as I saw the myc show up... But now I've been trying to get the CO2 to build up again to precipitate the formation of knots in the myc strands...

Funny thing though, I could be doing the opposite of what I should be doing... I really don't know...

I'm afraid that if I FAE too soon, I'll over dry my substrate. Also, I've stopped misting since the myc is showing on the surface, even though there are no pins, because I'm afraid of contams and or of damaging the hyphal strands...

Thanks if you have info that could help me...

Ps: you have my word that if this works the forum will have close up pics of pre-knot to post-knot formation from close ups, 2 pics a day... Should be interesting...


Thanks again

Jpack


Edited by jpack666 (11/17/13 01:46 PM)


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InvisibleThadeous
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19096726 - 11/06/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Full FAE as soon as the substrate is 100% colonized (unless you are doing BRF cakes, then allow a week of consolidation.)

Are you doing a monotub?


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Thadeous]
    #19096869 - 11/06/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's a micro environment invitro in a half pint jar... A test... Sub is pasteurized hpoo, cased with verm as soon as I thought it was fully colonized... It may not be at 100% colonisation yet... But yes it is like a micro monotub? Does that mean I should never give it FAE?


--------------------
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InvisibleThadeous
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19096911 - 11/06/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I am unsure what you're describing.  Pictures are worth a thousand posts, you know?  Irregardless of the setup, you should absolutely be giving FAE at or shortly after full conlonization of substrate.  It is one of the main pinning triggers.. In order of importance, they are: full colonization, FAE, 100% RH microclimate at surface of substrate, and evaporation from substrate.  Nail those, and you're 80% there.


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OfflineSgt. Pepper
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Thadeous]
    #19097571 - 11/06/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Once it is 100% colonized give it a really good fanning and misting and continue to supply fae and ample humidity. You'll be seeing knots in no time!


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19097601 - 11/06/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jpack666 said:
I am looking for your help: I'm wondering when you would consider it time to go to full FAE instead of just GE



When the substrate is fully colonized.

You do not give it FAE until 100% colonization.

Quote:

jpack666 said:
I'm afraid that if I FAE too soon, I'll over dry my substrate. Also, I've stopped misting since the myc is showing on the surface, even though there are no pins, because I'm afraid of contams and or of damaging the hyphal strands...



Nonsense....fruiting is not a sterile procedure....FAE is filled with contams.

A fully colonized substrate is contam resistant.

Just give them lots of FAE after full colonization.....this is all you have to do.


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: PussyFart]
    #19097975 - 11/06/13 10:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



What you are seeing is the bottom 2" of a jar...
Myc and vermiculite
There is about 1/3 of an inch of verm over what I beleived to be fully collonized hpoo mix
Myc has been showing in the verm since 3 to 4 days ago so I thought I had to FAE....

Do I need to wait for the verm layer to be fully collonized too?

For now, waiting for more info, I sealed it to build up CO2 and I havent misted in 3 days


Edited by jpack666 (11/06/13 10:07 PM)


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19098161 - 11/06/13 10:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

As a newb, if this thing makes 1 pin, I'm happy...


--------------------
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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19098171 - 11/06/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You should set your goals a little higher


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Stromrider]
    #19098231 - 11/06/13 10:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:mushroom2: then... Really it is a print I am after... Nothing less....

Do you think I should give FAE?


Edited by jpack666 (11/06/13 11:16 PM)


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Stromrider]
    #19098320 - 11/06/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
You should set your goals a little higher



Lol, No still psilly, my goal in life in to grow one pin then move on to something else... Don't want want to be owned by the fruit and succumb to its power ;-)


--------------------
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OfflineMastaBlastar
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19098593 - 11/07/13 12:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jpack666 said:
Quote:

Stromrider said:
You should set your goals a little higher



Lol, No still psilly, my goal in life in to grow one pin then move on to something else... Don't want want to be owned by the fruit and succumb to its power ;-)



Owned by the fruit?  I did not know psilos were addictive.  Honestly I think it is a HORRIBLE idea to trip any more than once a month, and that's a LOT IMO.

EDIT:And not a Hacker, you should have gotten an American made gun safe.  I can break into that thing in about 30 seconds with minimal tools or sound.  Literally a flat pice of metal, like a slim jim for a car, would work.  Beyond that a drill would do it in about 2 min if I can't get at the code reset switch.


--------------------
Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them .  Just a warning


Edited by MastaBlastar (11/07/13 12:43 AM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: MastaBlastar]
    #19099401 - 11/07/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MastaBlastar said:
EDIT:And not a Hacker, you should have gotten an American made gun safe.  I can break into that thing in about 30 seconds with minimal tools or sound.  Literally a flat pice of metal, like a slim jim for a car, would work.  Beyond that a drill would do it in about 2 min if I can't get at the code reset switch.



Not really bro...it is american made....Mesa Safe Company.....manufactured in California.

http://www.menards.com/main/safes/pistols-up-to-14/mesa-safe-6-4-cu-ft-capacity-burglary-and-fire-safe/p-1924404-c-6979.htm

There is no way to pry this thing open, and there is a drill plate....

I highly doubt, without being in top physical condition, and spending a few hours trying with power tools, you will get in.

Reset switch is impossible to hit from the outside.....even with a slim jim....I have tried....the shoulder inside the door stops everything.


Edited by PussyFart (11/07/13 08:52 AM)


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: PussyFart]
    #19101010 - 11/07/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Man I can't believe someone would insult another man's gun safe! Thems fightin words! :lol:


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Stromrider]
    #19101852 - 11/07/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
Man I can't believe someone would insult another man's gun safe! Thems fightin words! :lol:




Not in my post... I won't stand for this... Moderators....?

On a side note, how bout tonight with a pic, anyone can guide me I've NEVER done is before.
Good news is that's it's a micro environment very easy to control. I can build up the CO2, I could fan, I can easily monitor my RH with condensation drops...

But witha verm layer covered like the one I have, what step am I supposed to be on...

I'm so clueless I just alternate between all steps and keep an eye on it. I'll fan it in the morning, than seal it, than later give it GE only, then reseal it at night... I know how to affect the parameters of the growth but I don't know which ones I should play with to ensure pinning...

Still no knots today... 4th day since myc broke through verm layer


--------------------
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For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19102448 - 11/07/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not sure if I have to mist... In case not I don't...
Not sure if I should dry out the top verm layer or the opposite...
I'm giving it light by the way...


--------------------
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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19102553 - 11/07/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If the horse poo is 100% than give it lots of fae, and if it looks like it could take moisture than mist it.

It will take 1 - 1 1/2 weeks after introducing the FAE to see pins, during that time it should dry out a bit (pin trigger). Then after you notice the first pinset take hold you can begin to mist again so the mushrooms get as much water as possible without risking contam.

I do not know how to get FAE into a jar though, I guess you might get away with a couple holes and fanning it out 4 times a day.


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OfflineKagenical
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19102621 - 11/07/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Knots form at the onset of pinning. You want fae, high rh, evaporation and light. Now. Knotting is not a colonization thing. It is a fruiting thing. You're harming yourself right now. Fruit it.


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Kagenical]
    #19103105 - 11/07/13 09:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

1 day later



--------------------
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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Kagenical]
    #19103168 - 11/07/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MUSH HEAD420 said:
If the horse poo is 100% than give it lots of fae, and if it looks like it could take moisture than mist it.

It will take 1 - 1 1/2 weeks after introducing the FAE to see pins, during that time it should dry out a bit (pin trigger). Then after you notice the first pinset take hold you can begin to mist again so the mushrooms get as much water as possible without risking contam.

I do not know how to get FAE into a jar though, I guess you might get away with a couple holes and fanning it out 4 times a day.




7 to 10 days of fae to see first pins! I didn't know that at all... Thanks for pointing out the pin trigger of letting it dry out a bit too. I have to do fae and stop sealing it. I can manage that over the next 7 days by watching the condensation on the jar.

And I think if I understand what you said, I should not mist for now... I should do the opposite in a way, while retaining hi rh...

Thanks
Quote:

Kagenical said:
Knots form at the onset of pinning. You want fae, high rh, evaporation and light. Now. Knotting is not a colonization thing. It is a fruiting thing. You're harming yourself right now. Fruit it.




Thanks, so I'll stop waiting for them and instead pay attention to my fae for the next 7 days and see what happens, this is picture 2 and 7 days to go before expected knots and/or pins :mushroom2:

!! For luck !!

thanks for your help


Jpack


--------------------
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InvisibleMUSH HEAD420
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19103214 - 11/07/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Right before you put into fruiting conditions it is good to give it a good mist and then let it go without misting until you see pins then you can mist again so the mushrooms use up as much as possible.

The mushroom mycelium have been storing energy for the fruit, as soon as it runs out of food it will pin and then it will use the energy + water to create mushrooms. It just so happens that drying out makes it want to pin. Kinda like taking light and nutes away from a pot plant so it buds.

It could take up to 2 weeks if conditions are not optimal. You probably will not see the knots as they will form under the casing layer and you will see the pins as they poke though.


Edited by MUSH HEAD420 (11/07/13 10:24 PM)


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19103548 - 11/07/13 11:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It could take up to 2 weeks if conditions are not optimal. You probably will not see the knots as they will form under the casing layer and you will see the pins as they poke though.




Really! Makes me realize it was really time to put in FC


--------------------
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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19107674 - 11/08/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

New pic added one more day, 6 to go before pins. Still giving fae, see top for pic sequence


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OfflineMastaBlastar
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: PussyFart]
    #19109386 - 11/09/13 08:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

MastaBlastar said:
EDIT:And not a Hacker, you should have gotten an American made gun safe.  I can break into that thing in about 30 seconds with minimal tools or sound.  Literally a flat pice of metal, like a slim jim for a car, would work.  Beyond that a drill would do it in about 2 min if I can't get at the code reset switch.



Not really bro...it is american made....Mesa Safe Company.....manufactured in California.

http://www.menards.com/main/safes/pistols-up-to-14/mesa-safe-6-4-cu-ft-capacity-burglary-and-fire-safe/p-1924404-c-6979.htm

There is no way to pry this thing open, and there is a drill plate....

I highly doubt, without being in top physical condition, and spending a few hours trying with power tools, you will get in.

Reset switch is impossible to hit from the outside.....even with a slim jim....I have tried....the shoulder inside the door stops everything.



Ok cool, my mc steak.  I take it you did research, it looked like a cheapo winchester or harley davidson or something.


--------------------
Everything I have said, may say, will say, am thinking about saying and/or thinking/typing/dreaming/writing is in all likelyhood made up and has no factual basis in reality whatsoever, and is likely all plagiarized and copy pasted straight from someone else, so get mad at them .  Just a warning


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19124228 - 11/12/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thadeous said:
I am unsure what you're describing.  Pictures are worth a thousand posts, you know?  Irregardless of the setup, you should absolutely be giving FAE at or shortly after full conlonization of substrate.  It is one of the main pinning triggers.. In order of importance, they are: full colonization, FAE, 100% RH microclimate at surface of substrate, and evaporation from substrate.  Nail those, and you're 80% there.



Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Once it is 100% colonized give it a really good fanning and misting and continue to supply fae and ample humidity. You'll be seeing knots in no time!




I've been following hacker's advice to focus on fae, but my casing may be dry now... Sub is evaporating but casing is not rh 100% microclimate... I don't think it is because it must have dried a lot in the last few days...

I trust hacker about just keeping up what I'm doing... But was simply curious as to what are the "rules" of the trade when it comes to "misting" a casing like the one I am showing on pic FC+5.

I heard misting "hurts" the myc strands... And that I should only mist once the pins are out.... I just wanted to make sure I'm still on the right track...

All the pics so far are on the top of the thread (main post)

Thanks


--------------------
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For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


Edited by jpack666 (11/12/13 12:49 AM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19124287 - 11/12/13 12:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Mist it until the casing layer glistens, then fan it out to promote evaporation.

You want constant FAE, so water is constantly evaporating off the casing.

Lots of water evaporating will mean high RH.

Misting does not hurt anything...just use a fine mist, and do not hit it with any kind of pressure.


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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: PussyFart]
    #19124344 - 11/12/13 12:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Misting does not hurt anything...just use a fine mist, and do not hit it with any kind of pressure.




alright hacker I'll give that a try tomorow. Thanks


--------------------
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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19124605 - 11/12/13 02:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Adding: I've been covering the bottom outside of the jar with foil to put it in darkness.... My thought on that was getting the mycelium to "follow the light" and fruit ...at least I thought it made a difference. Do you have any suggestions regarding this? Right now, only the surface gets light 12/12...

Thanks


--------------------
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Invisiblejpack666
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19134119 - 11/14/13 12:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hi everyone,

Just updating you guys after a week of waiting...



It's been in fruiting conditions for exactly 7 days now... I'm not seeing pins or knots yet ...but I don't know what they would look like... Also, it could take another week according to some of your estimates...

7 days in FC... 11 days after applying the casing...
Anyone see something interesting?

Thanks


--------------------
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19134764 - 11/14/13 04:28 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It is still in the jar? That seems interesting.


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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Sockadin]
    #19135051 - 11/14/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

patience, and do change any of the conditions. It is too late for that imo anyway.

Give an update if they fruit.  :goodluck:


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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: Sockadin]
    #19135478 - 11/14/13 10:02 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
It is still in the jar? That seems interesting.




It's an experiment...
:-)


--------------------
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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19135498 - 11/14/13 10:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MUSH HEAD420 said:
patience, and do change any of the conditions. It is too late for that imo anyway.

Give an update if they fruit.  :goodluck:



It's at about 70 degrees now... The only change of condition I thought about, dealing with tropical mycelium, would be to throw it up at 75 or 80 to create maybe more evap.... Or a temp shock...
But as you say, at this point, maybe just keeping same conditions is best... I did start misting about 3 days ago and that seems to have given a boost though...


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Re: Before the hyphal knots... [Re: MUSH HEAD420]
    #19136367 - 11/14/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MUSH HEAD420 said:
patience



Well said, thanks for the advice


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Re: after the hyphal knots... [Re: jpack666]
    #19148688 - 11/17/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

PIN!

Dead center of last picture update:


I saw this forming a knot bellow the surface about 3 days before it turned into a pin, and the next day it was above the surface...

NOW...

I know this could still not fruit, it could abort.... I also beleive I can see about 4 other knots in the surface's micro-climate that may pin also if I give them about 4 more days... But, not sure my jar has room for more than one mushroom at a time (and my goal is only to get ONE print)...

Question:
My casing is still moist, will stop indirect misting... I'm afraid it could cause aborts...
But I don't know s*** so...
What should I be doing at this point?
Any rules of thumb?
Any tips?
Misting?

Btw I am now providing direct 6500k light...

Thanks a lot!
Will keep you all updated


--------------------
"There's a negative and a positive to everything."  :mushroom2:

For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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Invisiblejpack666
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Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
Re: BEFORE + AFTER the hyphal knots (pinning) [Re: jpack666]
    #19149917 - 11/17/13 02:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I was wrong... Being such a newb, I completly missed another pin that had been there a day prior.
So now I have about 1 visible to-become pin, 1 white pin turning brown (small) in the center, and 1 full blown pin (cap is almost completly brown) a little to the left which is fruiting and shouldn't abort.


Later, I will make a pic tutorial of what we can see with the pictures....

But for now, I can say you'll see a knot forming near the surface, just below, almost dead center, as soon as FC+3, you'll see it transform well into a born pin at FC+8, then at +9, you see it clearly, and to the left you have a pin coming out from deeper (has been forming for longer - you can only see the brown-white tip about to pop out). And then at +10, you have the knot, turned into a pin, and with it's buddy to the left, they are both pinning above surface and tip going from white to brown.

So at first, fuzzy white knot below surface, then solid round knot, then grows bigger and rises, then brown tip starts piercing through as it rises (might happen before breaking through surface of casing or might happen at the same time, from the pictures, the one that formed earlier and deeper looks to have a stronger root).

With 3 or 4 pics, we can clearly show this process...

Also, we may have new visuals to show how casings help form pins by creating a humid micro-environment at the substrate's surface.

I will update once fully fruited.


--------------------
"There's a negative and a positive to everything."  :mushroom2:

For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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