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OfflineVicious Virosa
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My two-cents
    #19094290 - 11/06/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a zen seeker (paradox...But words have too little weight!) and through hours of meditation, diligent awareness (and the occasional assistance via entheogenics!) came to these points which I think could help others in their search...

-All religions are as right or wrong as the interpreter, claiming to know the truth is the ultimate form of ignorance.

-In essence, most every human living right now is unconscious, and run almost entirely by a phantom device we named "the mind".

-The mind is the collective culmination of a lifetime of pre-conditioning to certain responses (aka the Ego)

-You are not your ego... You are not your brain... You are not the space of awareness viewing the world through sensory organs, predominately the eyes...

-You are life, the awareness behind your senses, your thoughts, you simply are...

-Your body, brain, and even the chronic noise generator you've dubbed "you" (all the random thoughts you can't silence) are no more you, then a flower on the ground.

-You are the space in which those sensory organs, brain and the world inhabits, not vice versa...

Any thoughts?
V. Virosa


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"Judging others doesn't define them... It defines you..."

"The fundamental delusion of humanity is that I am here, and you are out there."
        -Yasutani Roshi


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19094324 - 11/06/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think you should reject these terms -most everybody- you must simply understand that you are not even proficient in working on one person - yourself - how can you know then about -most everybody? Such rhetoric tells me you already are starting out on this path of yours bound hand and foot by egotism and the notion that because you practice something you are special.

Your specialness will never be defined by your silent and spiritual practices. They are not manifest enough. To be special you must act special and I hope you eschew that especial Zen assholeness that defines that particular path.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19094332 - 11/06/13 08:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well in general I agree with the part about us being life. :thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineVicious Virosa
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Icelander]
    #19094352 - 11/06/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I had no intentions of not including myself in that category of most everyone, because in my understanding only those rare and precious enlightened beings are not ran by the egoic mind!
I am at grips with my spiritual practices, I've come to understand a lot, mostly that of which I understand nothing! I was simply trying ot point out the lessons I was too stubborn to learn the first time around :smile:


--------------------
"Judging others doesn't define them... It defines you..."

"The fundamental delusion of humanity is that I am here, and you are out there."
        -Yasutani Roshi


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19094386 - 11/06/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The more I look into being human the stranger it all seems. Not necessarily a pleasant strange either. :frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19094396 - 11/06/13 08:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Got you.

So also you say some things about awareness and mind and so on. 

This is a rather newbie discernment.  Truth is there is only awareness and unawareness, and that's it!  There's awareness of things, and also the awareness of presence which is itself awareness.  Where there isn't awareness there isn't anything.  (for the sake of practice).

Thus there is nothing occurring since awareness itself doesn't change. There is also constant awareness of things always. There should be no discrimination that some type of awareness is better than another type. There is only one type of awareness. That's it!  There has never been another type of awareness, not for kings, priests, gods, demons, or even for one's grandmother - though for the latter there may yet be something special :smile:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My two-cents [Re: eve69]
    #19094557 - 11/06/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You seem pretty sure of all that. How?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Icelander]
    #19094588 - 11/06/13 09:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

experience
common sense
liberal doses of drugs
psychotherapy
cognitive dissonance
and a touch of salt and pepper

it's my recipe
every time i make it people say
YUM


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My two-cents [Re: eve69]
    #19094596 - 11/06/13 09:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

OK, just wondering. :laugh:  I think you make a lot of fun and entertaining posts btw. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19094856 - 11/06/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Vicious Virosa said:
-All religions are as right or wrong as the interpreter, claiming to know the truth is the ultimate form of ignorance.



"They who speak do not know.  They who know do not speak."

Quote:

Vicious Virosa said:
-In essence, most every human living right now is unconscious, and run almost entirely by a phantom device we named "the mind".



Paraphrasing, again, from the Tao Te Ching --  "The universe is perfect as is.  It cannot be improved."

So, if we're all asleep, that's perfect too.  I wouldn't fret over it. :wink: 

Quote:

Vicious Virosa said:
-The mind is the collective culmination of a lifetime of pre-conditioning to certain responses (aka the Ego)

-You are not your ego... You are not your brain... You are not the space of awareness viewing the world through sensory organs, predominately the eyes...



Our egos serve us and humanity quite well.  They've brought us to the point where we can discuss and share our most intimate insights.  Including our Zen insights.

Eastern spiritual doctrines that cast aspersions on the human ego (including the ego's more nasty and deluded aspects) are playing the same game that Western spiritual doctrines play vis-a-vis "Satan."

Same game.  Different game pieces.

Quote:

Vicious Virosa said:
-Your body, brain, and even the chronic noise generator you've dubbed "you" (all the random thoughts you can't silence) are no more you, then a flower on the ground.



I am both the noise and the silence from which the noise originates.

Both.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Icelander]
    #19094983 - 11/06/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK, just wondering. :laugh:  I think you make a lot of fun and entertaining posts btw. :thumbup:




You always say the nicest things!

:2girls1cup:


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Invisibler72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19095010 - 11/06/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Cool post. I liked most of what you had to say. :laugh:


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Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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OfflineVicious Virosa
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Re: My two-cents [Re: r72rock]
    #19100539 - 11/07/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Tao te ching was an invaluable resource! But after all the suffering the human ego has wrought on this planet, with the seemingly endlessly rising level of violence and disharmony, I can't accept the ego has done humanity any justice. The brain/ego/mind, are not bad when they are used. They become bad when they  use you instead... How many times have you said or done something in anger, and later regretted it? That's the ego using you... Feeding off of the discord you produce to inflate itself, which "preserves" it, allowing it, in it's own way, to avoid the inevitable, it's cessation...

Thinking is a tool... Like a screwdriver, there are many points where a screwdriver comes in useful, but not if your trying to use it to breath under water, or transport you long distances. There comes a time where you have to put down the screwdriver (silence the analytical mind) and just be...

And I never suggested there were various types of awareness, only degrees of it. Nothing changes when you go to sleep, or when you jump out of a plane while skydiving. It's the degree of which your able to dissociate yourself with the thinker, that determines awareness.


--------------------
"Judging others doesn't define them... It defines you..."

"The fundamental delusion of humanity is that I am here, and you are out there."
        -Yasutani Roshi


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19100628 - 11/07/13 01:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Actually it's not ego. It is acting upon negativity.  You might think people who act in service are selfless and wonderful. But they are actually completely egotistical but they act upon positivity.  It may seem like we're talking the same thing. It might seem like it but it's not.

You can't act without ego. It just doesn't happen. You can train yourself to act in a positive manner, and know when you're not acting in everybody's best interests.

It may just be semantics at one point but it means something else later when you are trying to discern truth free from various cliched catchphrases.

Act free from the ego means, give me your money, have sex with me, and don't tell anyone. Act in a positive manner means, castrate that motherfucker who has been preying upon children.  Act negatively means, get that asshole back for calling you a pooper scooper on Facebook, hack his account and hate mail his sister. Get the difference, good, class out.


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OfflineVicious Virosa
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Re: My two-cents [Re: eve69]
    #19100834 - 11/07/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I believe your right about the semantics!
I define the ego as such... The thinker... The voice in your head, that feeds you rubbish such as "I hate work, you shouldn't feel good here", which if your attune enough to your mental noise, you can actually catch yourself in the act of such a thought. I was astounded at the general degree of negativity my mind churns up when I learned to focus enough to pay attention to the subtle, extremely low pitched, and chronic thought patterns that endlessly repeat themselves as you re-enact yesterday over and over again.
Acting selflessly with ulterior motives, you are indeed correct, that could be a form a egotism, I agree with you there. But, so is judging that individual, best let it be in my opinion and not bother with analyzing it... You could never catch every way the ego operates, it's based off of words, labels, sensations, patterns, and is therefore endlessly variable, hence why with similar physiology every human acts entirely different! And it's also entirely embedded in your human physiology, entirely unavoidable, but that's not to say you can't transcend the need for it all together...
It is very possible to function in a pristine, unmarred state of awareness, not covered by the veil of thoughts, labels and illusions the mind forms to analyze and categorize things, instead of experiencing them...
That is my ultimate goal in my training! I fully realize I am under control of my egoic patterns, and I don't strive to deny or starve myself out of them like the ascetics of old. I aim to one day suddenly realize where the boundary of awareness and the mind is.


--------------------
"Judging others doesn't define them... It defines you..."

"The fundamental delusion of humanity is that I am here, and you are out there."
        -Yasutani Roshi


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19101538 - 11/07/13 04:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

People need some basic knowledge of psychiatry. Ego is just a physical sense of self. Ego doesn't have thoughts.  The selfish person we all know so well is known as the 'id.' 

When you hear what you call negative thoughts, perhaps those thoughts are the noise level of the body. You listen to your thoughts but are you also hearing your body? 

Maybe at work you feel uncomfortable. You hate the job. Maybe it's always humid in there, maybe too hot. Maybe you're physically weak and hate walking or being on your feet.  Why are these thoughts? 

I get a bit dismayed over and over again because people are forever just jumping into the deep end of the pool of spiritual cliches without entering first the shallow end and doing some research into their subject. Who gave us these silly notions that we accept as verbatim truth?

How come we respect these Zen people? They seem confident. They seem like they know so much. I suggest that certain dinosaurs of the early New Age scene like Watts and Trungpa, et al, have mentally fucked us right from the outset by:

giving us the notion that wisdom is something external and something which a teacher can give us through devotion through time or money

I humbly suggest that you are perfect and that you need to see the negative and imperfect for the valuable tools that they are.


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OfflineVicious Virosa
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Re: My two-cents [Re: eve69]
    #19105084 - 11/08/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have done more then extensive research my friend... I had been in psychological agony even before I joined the military, after traumatic experiences only a combat zone could incur, my view of the world was dramatically shifted, I found a truth that I understood beyond words or concepts in zen.

And I understand where your coming from entirely, but I'm no novice on the subject of spirituality. It's not a hobby for me, every hour of every day I consider what I could do to advance my body mind and soul. It went from a passive interest but once I learned I could trust Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Siddhartha, not because their words where undefeatable, but because I knew by faith there was truth beyond them, then it became an entire manner of living. I train for at minimum 9 hours daily, ranging from simple meditation and physical exercise, to 7 to 14 day purifying fasts, consuming only water...

I have given up T.V, movies, games, most hobbies (though mycology offers interesting opportunities!) in pursuit of simplicity, which I truly believe is all you need in life. So please don't assume I am a foolish "newbie" jumping on a band wagon, I've read more books then I can remember ranging from the Tao-te-ching and chuang Tzu's bizarre additions, to contemporary ones such as the power of now (great book for dealing with coworkers!). But I also endlessly strive to apply my knowledge to daily life, and live my path.

So I agree, we are as we are. But do realize the way we all live is killing us off early, causing suffering on a global scale, and is the sole cause of all pain on this earth. In that regard, there is much to improve on, not by adding any knowledge, but by taking out the trash, as it where.

Negativity, and suffering serve an invaluable purpose by showing us where we are resisting what is, the suffering it takes to go on a 14 day fast can be INTENSE! But when you realize the achy joints, bad breath, vomiting and what not are all ways of purification of deeply entrenched bad habits, you can let go of fear, and just be :smile:


--------------------
"Judging others doesn't define them... It defines you..."

"The fundamental delusion of humanity is that I am here, and you are out there."
        -Yasutani Roshi


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Offlineeve69
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Re: My two-cents [Re: Vicious Virosa]
    #19105283 - 11/08/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Cool. Good meeting you.  I bring to the table the path of M the Goddess of Pollution. Seek not to change what you cannot change, seek not to change anything. Rather, as you say, immerse in what is.  Seek no perfect spot of repose. Teachers that ask you to become a better person, follow a better path, those teachers are quickly pushed aside just as soon as the first conflict arises.  I suggest finding the purity in conflict. Because when one has then one can never stray.  Everything is balanced in perfect conflict.

Should one not do good?  Can you even to begin with?


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