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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: memes]
    #19091458 - 11/05/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

fame brahchoskeedoskee


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OfflineAlmond Flour
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: MrMoo] * 1
    #19091531 - 11/05/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I dont agree with the act in itself, but the quote and what he was trying to say is definitely worth a second glance.

He viewed psychedelics differently in a spiritual and mental sense. Hes not telling you to gravity bong 50x salvia at a party with 2 torch lighters. Hes saying if you arent willing to dive into yourself and your experiance with full force, you are a scrub.

I can totally respect that, psychedelics or not.....it was the person he is referencing there


--------------------
Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church" :morningtoke:


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: MrMoo]
    #19091949 - 11/05/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MrMoo said:
Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.





Is this in Dennis' new book?


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OfflineKGB Is Go
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Middleman]
    #19091999 - 11/05/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
Quote:

MrMoo said:
Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.





Is this in Dennis' new book?



I believe it is. This Erowid column post contains a nice analysis on the matter.

Here is the relevant excerpt:

"And now Dennis is saying that Terence himself basically stopped taking mushrooms sometime in the late 1980s, more than ten years before terminal illness put an untimely end to his enthusiastic evangelism. It seems that he had an anomalous mushroom experience in Hawaii that made him extremely reluctant to continue with his practice. According to Dennis, he thereafter abjured the mushroom almost entirely, and partook of ayahuasca and DMT only very rarely, and always at relatively low dosage levels.

These fun facts hit the Internet after Lorenzo Hagerty, who hosts the well-known Psychedelic Salon podcast, played a few clips from a two-day workshop entitled “Terence McKenna: Beyond 2012″ that he and scientist/designer Bruce Damer had facilitated at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California in June 2012. In one of those clips Damer reads some sneak preview excerpts from Dennis McKenna’s much anticipated book, The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, in which Dennis spills the beans about Terence’s decade-long abstinence and talks a bit about the self-doubt and existential angst that apparently haunted at least the last few years of his late brother’s unusual career."


--------------------
"The guy went axe-happy on a trout farm, he killed 60 fish."


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Invisiblememes
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092036 - 11/05/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the universe always gets ya in the end. 


"eat your words, terence!"
-the collective behind the curtain


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OfflineAlmond Flour
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092070 - 11/05/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
Quote:

MrMoo said:
Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.





Is this in Dennis' new book?



I believe it is. This Erowid column post contains a nice analysis on the matter.

Here is the relevant excerpt:

"And now Dennis is saying that Terence himself basically stopped taking mushrooms sometime in the late 1980s, more than ten years before terminal illness put an untimely end to his enthusiastic evangelism. It seems that he had an anomalous mushroom experience in Hawaii that made him extremely reluctant to continue with his practice. According to Dennis, he thereafter abjured the mushroom almost entirely, and partook of ayahuasca and DMT only very rarely, and always at relatively low dosage levels.

These fun facts hit the Internet after Lorenzo Hagerty, who hosts the well-known Psychedelic Salon podcast, played a few clips from a two-day workshop entitled “Terence McKenna: Beyond 2012″ that he and scientist/designer Bruce Damer had facilitated at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California in June 2012. In one of those clips Damer reads some sneak preview excerpts from Dennis McKenna’s much anticipated book, The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, in which Dennis spills the beans about Terence’s decade-long abstinence and talks a bit about the self-doubt and existential angst that apparently haunted at least the last few years of his late brother’s unusual career."




I read a paper on his cancer and some of his thoughts, he definitely toned it down and was humbled by the experience.


--------------------
Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church" :morningtoke:


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OfflineKGB Is Go
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092464 - 11/05/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Regarding the question in OP, I see two separate questions (with the second being more important):
  • 1. What do you think about Terence having said this? and
  • 2. Do you agree about high doses, based on your experience?

1. I don't think I know enough to really comment, but here's my take: On one hand, it seems that Terence eventually renounced the mushroom, after an especially horrifying trip, and from that point on only took DMT/Ayahuasca at low doses. So eventually his actions contradicted his words, which might make his comment null and void.

On the other hand, Terence is arguably one of the most inspiring figures in the psychedelic community. Beyond this, I think it's fair to say he had quite an amazing mind and and incredible command of language. I think he would favour the mushroom as having made a great contribution to his ability to use words, and more generally how his mind took shape during his life.

So in the end, (sounds an obvious thing to say but) I guess there's both potential harm and benefit in high doses. And they aren't for everyone all the time. So my feeling is his comment was a bit reckless/optimistic.

2. IME, I've had a tough time simply with moderate, let alone high, or heroic, doses of mushrooms. I'm not sure if my 'bad' experience has been due to lack of courage or poor attitude etc., and whether higher doses may have helped me transcend the unpleasant experiences or not.

I tend to be pretty cautious by nature. I'm certainly one to test the waters before jumping in, and I don't follow others blindly in good faith. I think I was a bit reckless with my first dose - which was probably my largest so far - so I've been trying to nibble my way into the mushroom realm in effort to travel freely.

I've read a few people say that lower doses can be more difficult because you're below some kind of threshold which may confuse things and can cause some anxiety. Might be true but I don't really have the desire/balls to find out just yet.

(With LSD, on the other hand, I've had no negative experiences yet which would cause me to lower my dose. But I'm still upping my dose gradually.)

- - -

I'd be curious to know what kind of doses they go for in clinical settings with the intent for healing/therapy (with LSD/psilocybin/MDMA)...


--------------------
"The guy went axe-happy on a trout farm, he killed 60 fish."


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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz]
    #19092536 - 11/05/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, I like Terrence Mckenna and I find his work fascinating, but that quote is so misleading and destructive. Psychedelics aren't toys, they are one of the most intense, frightening, eye-opening experiences that the mind is able to experience. Eating 5 grams for a first timer and dropping down the deep and never ending rabbit hole can lead to serious negative consequences  for the user's mind. PTSD is a serious disorder, don't fuck around with that.

Any inexperienced user, no matter the situation, should start off with a LOW dose. Doing psychedelics shouldn't be a courage competition- that just gives it a bad name and reinforces the unnecessary stigma that's already attached to it. If everybody abided by this rule, I feel like psychedelics would actually have a shot at being studied psychologically and perhaps even legalized. Stupid people who attempt doses beyond their threshold are the ones who end up hurting others, killing themselves, and being the root of the problem. :thumbdown:


--------------------

Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092579 - 11/05/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I appreciate even the little things, I don't need much to enjoy a buzz (rather I notice a change of mind very quickly)

That counts for all drugs other then psychedelics: all the way!


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19092633 - 11/05/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like listening to McKenna, and I find him interesting.  But if you ever listen to his stuff pre like '81  its definitely got a different spin than the stuff after.  The rhetoric definitely had way more fire to it.
And I can't really get behind some of his ideas.  I mean the whole "Timewave-zero"  is too out there for me.  Also when reading "True hallucinations"  I thought the idea of transindental word objects coalescing out of their yelling voices its just  :tinfoil:
There comes a point where if you can't re-integrate the experience back into your everyday life, you've got to leave it behind in that realm.  If not you end up trying to life in that non-temporal space and end up like John Lilly at the end.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #19092649 - 11/05/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

To a degree. Ayahuasca has completely obliterated my urge to dive any deeper on psychedelics. However, I still do enjoy a solid +++/++++ much more than anything below that. I need to be immersed


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OfflineMrMoo
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092746 - 11/05/13 09:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
Regarding the question in OP, I see two separate questions (with the second being more important):
  • 1. What do you think about Terence having said this? and
  • 2. Do you agree about high doses, based on your experience?

1. I don't think I know enough to really comment, but here's my take: On one hand, it seems that Terence eventually renounced the mushroom, after an especially horrifying trip, and from that point on only took DMT/Ayahuasca at low doses. So eventually his actions contradicted his words, which might make his comment null and void.

On the other hand, Terence is arguably one of the most inspiring figures in the psychedelic community. Beyond this, I think it's fair to say he had quite an amazing mind and and incredible command of language. I think he would favour the mushroom as having made a great contribution to his ability to use words, and more generally how his mind took shape during his life.

So in the end, (sounds an obvious thing to say but) I guess there's both potential harm and benefit in high doses. And they aren't for everyone all the time. So my feeling is his comment was a bit reckless/optimistic.

2. IME, I've had a tough time simply with moderate, let alone high, or heroic, doses of mushrooms. I'm not sure if my 'bad' experience has been due to lack of courage or poor attitude etc., and whether higher doses may have helped me transcend the unpleasant experiences or not.

I tend to be pretty cautious by nature. I'm certainly one to test the waters before jumping in, and I don't follow others blindly in good faith. I think I was a bit reckless with my first dose - which was probably my largest so far - so I've been trying to nibble my way into the mushroom realm in effort to travel freely.

I've read a few people say that lower doses can be more difficult because you're below some kind of threshold which may confuse things and can cause some anxiety. Might be true but I don't really have the desire/balls to find out just yet.

(With LSD, on the other hand, I've had no negative experiences yet which would cause me to lower my dose. But I'm still upping my dose gradually.)

- - -

I'd be curious to know what kind of doses they go for in clinical settings with the intent for healing/therapy (with LSD/psilocybin/MDMA)...




Pretty much this ^

I'd like to think Terence still believed in his message up until the end and I think he did. You simply don't forget those deeper experiences and the messages they entail. He was a maverick of the mind and a brilliant free thinker and speaker and has helped shape my own views on reality along with other luminaries and my experiences with altered states.

I don't agree with his statement of being a diddle, each to there own and his position on it may have changed over the last decade of his life anyway.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: MrMoo] * 1
    #19093313 - 11/05/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

irrelevant but did you know dennis mckenna knew about the shroomery?




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OfflineNotTheDevil
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19093530 - 11/06/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?



Sounds like :dawerp:
like :underage:
like your not good enough unless you take high doses of drugs
like "ugh you did one gram of mushies, I did ten"


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InvisibleSkinty
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: NotTheDevil] * 1
    #19093599 - 11/06/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You would be an idiot for taking levels of hallucinogenics based on some judgmental quote from someone. Be "courageous" and take however much you wanna take large or small who gives a fuck. What does that bloke know what you're looking for or afraid of :shrug:


--------------------


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Skinty]
    #19093616 - 11/06/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

lol a few years ago terrance was like a god amongst shroomites and peeps would gladly take the courages dose on account of mckenna. :lol:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 1
    #19093624 - 11/06/13 01:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I actually am thinking the opposite these days, that the best thing you can do with any drug is start at the lowest possible dose and then gradually climb up by tiny increments with each successive experiment, until you find your sweet spot. Its the safest way to get to know a substance and you can still find your way to heroic doses eventually, but you do it one step at a time, with patience, persistence and care. To me doing tiny doses first and working up to high doses is the obvious, logical thing to do for maximum safety. To rush to a high dose is just impatient really, whats the hurry? You can get there in time, one step at a time.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleSkinty
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #19093666 - 11/06/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I actually am thinking the opposite these days, that the best thing you can do with any drug is start at the lowest possible dose and then gradually climb up by tiny increments with each successive experiment, until you find your sweet spot. Its the safest way to get to know a substance and you can still find your way to heroic doses eventually, but you do it one step at a time, with patience, persistence and care. To me doing tiny doses first and working up to high doses is the obvious, logical thing to do for maximum safety. To rush to a high dose is just impatient really, whats the hurry? You can get there in time, one step at a time.





How lacking in "courage" :wink::lol:


--------------------


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 1
    #19093735 - 11/06/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?




I take big doses when I feel like it, which is not always. Sometimes I like a light trip. :shrug:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #19093781 - 11/06/13 02:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Dennis McKenna said:

"Terence's pivotal existential crisis came abruptly. Sometime in '88 or '89. Everything that happened after that event was fallout. I don't know exactly when it happened and I don't know exactly what happened. I am piecing it together from what Kat has told me and she has volunteered few details and I am reluctant to probe. It happened when they were living for a time on the Big Island and it was a mushroom trip they shared that was absolutely terrifying for Terence. It was terrifying because, for some reason, the mushroom turned on him. The gentle, wise, humorous mushroom spirit that he had come to know and trust as an ally and teacher ripped back the facade to reveal an abyss of utter existential despair. Terence kept saying, so Kat told me, that it was, "a lack of all meaning, a lack of all meaning." And this induced panic in Terence and probably, I speculate, a feeling that he was going mad. He couldn't deal with it. Kat's efforts to reassure him were fruitless. After that experience, he never again took mushrooms and he took other psychedelics such as DMT and Ayahuasca only on rare occasions and with great reluctance.

Whatever the specific content of the psychedelic experience might have been that triggered the cognitive collapse of Terence's worldview and precipitated his existential crisis, what was most remarkable was that he did not see it coming. He did not see it coming.

When one works deeply, and over long periods, with a particular plant teacher, there inevitably comes a point where the examination of the self comes front and center. One may learn much from psychedelics about archetypes, myths, and other dimensions, shamanic techniques, aliens and the construction of the cosmogonic and cognitive worldview, but sooner or later they hold up a mirror in which one must confront the self.

I believe Terence was not up for that. Up to that point, his existentially terrifying experience, his mushroom encounters had been very much about the Other, about receiving gnosis from a higher wisdom that was seemingly distinct from the self. But the source that originated the funny ideas about time, the extraterrestrial origins of the mushroom, and the entire metaphysics constructed around those ideas that Terence managed to make so appealing to his fans, were almost all entirely cerebral.

There was very little of self-reflection, emotion, or insight in those constructs. As long as it stayed on that level, Terence could handle it. When it became personal, and when it became about heart-related insights having to do with his emotional status and his relationships to others, I think it became very threatening for him. The mushrooms proffered the lesson, but it was not a lesson that Terence wanted to accept or acknowledge. It was too much about the self and no longer about the Other.

Since earliest childhood, ever since the incident in the sandbox, when Terence erected an emotional wall between himself and our father, Terence had been concerned to protect himself from almost all emotional entanglements, as a strategy for self-preservation. When the mushrooms kicked that wall down and forced him to confront his emotional alienation, the old, reactive defense mechanisms were activated and he could no longer bring himself to face it.

This incident also contributed to Terence’s growing doubts about his public role as an advocate of psychedelics, and the constellation of funny ideas that he represented in his role as the sage of hyperspace. The trickster mushroom had betrayed him. He could no longer take them, and the prospect of what they might present to him was too terrifying.

Yet there he was, in the public position of being the new Timothy Leary, the explorer-psychonaut who was supposedly plunging down the rabbit hole every weekend. Even now, many of Terence’s fans assume that during this period of his life he was taking high doses of mushrooms and DMT on a regular basis, and they are shocked to learn that that was not the case. Throughout most of the 90’s, Terence used psychedelics only on extremely rare occasions, and when he did take them the doses were modest.

His fans did not know this, but Terence knew it, and he knew that his public representation was disingenuous and, to his credit, it bothered him. Fundamentally, he wanted to be honest, but he could not be, and his fans would not let him be. Or at least that was his perception. His fans identified with him and, as a group, they were largely uncritical. Terence became so good at doing his schtick that it really didn’t matter whether it made sense or not. It sounded great. It was what people wanted to hear, and it paid the bills, and it became the trap from which he could not escape.

On the rare occasions when someone did rise up to question the tenets of the faith, as the mathematician Matthew Watkins did with Terence and the timewave in 1996, rather than stimulate a thoughtful, productive, intellectual exchange that might have refined and extended the concept, it led to public ridicule in the form of vicious, personal attacks on the questioner, as other members of the fan base piled on. The fan base had become a cult, heretics were censured, mocked and shouted down.

In Terence’s defense, I don’t believe he welcomed this kind of response. He did not lead the charge, he let others do it for him. I think that, in his heart of hearts, Terence would have welcomed honest discussion of some of the presumptions of his ideas, except that to do so would require that he step back from them, perhaps go into seclusion for a time while he conducted a careful reevaluation. But for that there was neither time nor resources nor incentive.

In fact, there was every incentive not to do that. After all, he was on the circuit. If the fans wanted to hear the schtick, the last thing they wanted to hear was Terence announce either that he had only been kidding and didn’t really take any of it very seriously and never had, or that he had been overcome by doubts and needed some time to reconsider and take a harder look at the foundations of the theories. Either one of these responses would have been more honest; neither would have been well-tolerated by his fans. The one would have incurred their hostility on the dawning realization they had been duped, and the other would have severely interrupted cash-flows as the concepts were reworked and retooled.

Whatever had driven him in the months and years following La Chorrera to write extended screeds in cramped, microscopic script, and to construct the heavily annotated, hand-drawn graphs of time had long since left; he was no longer in the grip of the Logos. After all, he was on the circuit and there were plenty of adulating fans, many attractive, young women, a circuit of pleasing venues, good money, good food, love and admiration. All in response to what came naturally and effortlessly: the rap, the schtick – what’s not to like, why piss away a good gig?

The problem with this is that he didn’t really believe much anymore, in the schtick or the concepts he purported to represent. He couldn’t or wouldn’t take psychedelics again to get recharged, perhaps to recover thereby some of the belief and passion. As a result, he became disillusioned with himself and with his fans. He could no longer be honest with either himself or his fans, and this led to a further cognitive dissonance. He began to feel even more like a fraud than ever; he became quite depressed. He became trapped in his own public persona like a caged performer on stage, and in response gradually lost respect for his fans."




:jimmies:



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