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InvisibleHalfLight
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The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms.
    #19091889 - 11/05/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Provide arguments affirming or negating the statement that is the title of this thread, or both. What you post doesn't have to represent your personal beliefs at all, though it definitely can.

If you can, back up the arguments with evidence from legitimate sources. Provide your sources! The source doesn't have to be a URL.

Providing evidence supporting an argument without citing the source for the evidence in a post, then in another post suggesting that others are to use a search engine to find your source is synonymous with stating, "I am a bitch!"

Simply providing evidence supporting an argument without citing the source is synonymous with stating, "I am a half-bitch!"

You can have your half-bitch status revoked by citing the missing source.

After beginning the thread I'll start making a post to involve myself in the debate.

Remember,

Now, begin! :smile:


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19091905 - 11/05/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why don't you start by choosing a position and providing evidence?

Oh wait, there is no legitimize evidence, because we aren't allowed to FOIA it.  This thread is DOA.


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Invisiblemutantmushroom
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #19091943 - 11/05/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If they don't fuck with my life then I don't care what they do to protect us.


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When you put the best effort you can into something, you’re bound to get something good out of it



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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: mutantmushroom]
    #19091952 - 11/05/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mutantmushroom said:
If they don't fuck with my life then I don't care what they do to protect us.




If all drugs were legal then I would never be committing an illegal act :shrug:


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Invisiblemutantmushroom
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19091978 - 11/05/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid: we should be able to go wherever we want in our minds.


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: mutantmushroom]
    #19092086 - 11/05/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If it only outweighs the the negatives (absolutely no infringement on our citizens) thwn it's fine otherwise DSHSB


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19092511 - 11/05/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

To negate the idea that the benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms, I'd like to argue that excessive surveillance by the NSA could cause dangerous blackmailing of US elected officials.

Information leaks have revealed that revealed that the National Security Agency has listened in on the cell phone calls of German Chancellor Angela Merkel (as well as other European leaders), proving that spying on high-ranking leaders of allied nations is not beyond the boundaries of US intelligence agencies.
This is a bit upsetting, but not really surprising.
It's common sense that an imperialist state with technological capabilities such as the US would be using our tech to gather the most important info available on other powerful countries, however much of a betrayal it is to our friends abroad.

The news does cause questioning on what the boundaries of the NSA are though.
Would they seek out the private information of high-ranking officials in the US just as they did in foreign countries?
Couldn't said information be used to blackmail lawmakers into making decisions which support the agenda of intelligence agencies that seem to advocate intrusion on the privacy (and perhaps the rights) of US/world citizens?
Actually, in 2009, the NSA made alleged attempts to illegally wiretap a congressman, “... new details are also emerging about earlier domestic-surveillance programs, including the (National Security) agency’s attempt to wiretap a member of congress, without court approval, on an overseas trip, current and former intelligence officials said.”
The NSA claimed that the reason for the wiretapping of an elected official, was that said person had contact with an extremist with possible terrorist ties who was already under surveillance.

The motives seem questionable.
Did US intelligence suspect the congressman was under threat of violence by the extremist? If so, why was the member of congress not alerted of possible danger and given protection instead of privacy invasion?
Did they think that the congressman was involved with terrorism/extremism? Then shouldn't the voting population be alerted? Wouldn't further investigation into their activity be occurring and why haven't we heard about that?
Any member of US Congress is required to swear an oath of allegiance to the United States as a part of the swearing-in process, so if the NSA claimed they were involved in terrorism, it would be any given congressman's word against the word of an organization shrouded in distrust, misinformation, and violation of American rights.
This suggests that the information not being provided by the agency surrounding this event would not be in their favor.

In fact, people who have direct experience working for the NSA seem to think that the administration was actually targeting government officials.
If you remember Russel Tice, the original "NSA whistleblower" that provided evidence of the National Security Agency's activity under the Bush administration in 2005, then you're going to enjoy the following quote from him in a 2013 interview, “They went after–and I know this because I had my hands literally on the paperwork for these sort of things–they went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial.”
Unfortunate that Tice doesn't have any apparent documents to support these allegations, but it definitely provokes suspicion of what actions the NSA is taking, and why transparency wouldn't be provided to dispel the thought that Tice's quote might be true.

So is there any direct evidence of NSA spying on our elected officials?
Yes, there is direct evidence of this happening, though the NSA claims that they weren't attempting to wiretap lawmakers (but it did undoubtedly occur).
During the summer of 2013, former NSA Contractor provided classified documents to several news sources, including ones provided to the Washington Post that report the agency intercepting calls from basically the entire Washington, DC area in 2008.
The NSA claimed a mistake with area codes, saying that they were attempting to intercept calls from Egypt, “In one instance, the NSA decided that it need not report the unintended surveillance of Americans. A notable example in 2008 was the interception of a “large number” of calls placed from Washington when a programming error confused the U.S. area code 202 for 20, the international dialing code for Egypt…”
So here is not only another example of US spying on allies (Egypt an ally of nearly two decades at the time) which I don't doubt the NSA would excuse because of political turmoil in Egypt during 2008, but also an example of widespread spying on US citizens without being reported or approved of by courts.
If the National Security Agency wishes to maintain the unnecessary power it currently holds, then there is no excuse for the above behavior, especially not the excuse of a mere area code mix-up.

The above information provides clear, verified evidence that the NSA has spied on US elected officials (specifically federal lawmakers), as well as reason to believe that personal information has been used to target said officials, and perhaps alter the actions of lawmakers.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19092562 - 11/05/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Why don't you start by choosing a position and providing evidence?

Oh wait, there is no legitimize evidence, because we aren't allowed to FOIA it.  This thread is DOA.



No "legitimize" evidence you say? :orly: CHECK AGAIN
:lol: I'm only joking, I can't blame you for not being completely informed on the topic. Hell, I'm not entirely, though I'm trying damn hard.


@Everyone else: Come on guys! I know you can do better than that. I was hoping for a well-educated debate on some very important stuff to people internationally, not docile acceptance of a privacy-invading program.

Aren't you a bit bothered by the fact that your deepest, most personal conversations have been recorded by people who you haven't given permission to?

I know that I'm curious as to whether anyone working for the PRISM program with an alternative sexual orientation has fapped to my dick pics :datass:

If my dick pics are being fapped to without my consent, then why isn't there any apparent reason for it other than a flimsy claim that my dick might be receiving protection from suicide bombs? :crankey:


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19092604 - 11/05/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Why don't you start by choosing a position and providing evidence?

Oh wait, there is no legitimize evidence, because we aren't allowed to FOIA it.  This thread is DOA.



No "legitimize" evidence you say? :orly: CHECK AGAIN
:lol: I'm only joking, I can't blame you for not being completely informed on the topic. Hell, I'm not entirely, though I'm trying damn hard.


@Everyone else: Come on guys! I know you can do better than that. I was hoping for a well-educated debate on some very important stuff to people internationally, not docile acceptance of a privacy-invading program.

Aren't you a bit bothered by the fact that your deepest, most personal conversations have been recorded by people who you haven't given permission to?

I know that I'm curious as to whether anyone working for the PRISM program with an alternative sexual orientation has fapped to my dick pics :datass:

If my dick pics are being fapped to without my consent, then why isn't there any apparent reason for it other than a flimsy claim that my dick might be receiving protection from suicide bombs? :crankey:




I'm completely informed on the topic, and simply hit the wrong spelling correction for "legitimate."


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19092684 - 11/05/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I comprehended that it was a typo, my friend :wink:

Oh you're completely informed, are you? I can assume that you are a high-ranking NSA official then, with complete information on the workings of the PRISM program?
If that is the case, then it would seem the people of the the Political Discussion section of the Shroomery have a great deal of questions they'd like answered.

:lol:

From my experience, people who think they have mastered a topic are most definitely not masters, but rather slaves to their own inflated ego.

But what the hell do I know, other than information concerning evidence to be used in the NSA argument which surpasses your attained information?
:shrug:


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19092787 - 11/05/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've read every major NSA break since it hit the news this year.  I'm as informed as most members of congress.

Before that, many of the things that have been recently confirmed have been reported on in the last decade in some shape or form. 


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19092857 - 11/05/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you are so informed like you claim, then why did you also claim that there was no legitimate evidence that could be used to debate the resolved title of this thread when there is legitimate evidence?

Why have you taken the time to repeatedly affirm your expertise on the NSA, rather than take the same time to provide an affirmative or negative argument using the evidence which is available to the American public? Or even take time to rebut the contention I already provided?

Your words do not have any backing that I am aware of, and thus I will take the view that you do not have any sort of impressive grasp on the topic until such backing has been provided.

Sorry :sad: I'm sure you won't allow the opinion of a stranger on the internet to bother you though.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19092908 - 11/05/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

We haven't been given any possible benefits.  We've got Clapper and Alexander lying to congress, and no proof that there has been any benefit from the program.  All we know are the negatives (as perceived by some).

If you want to talk possible benefits?  Sure we could have a hypothetical discussion, but until we know more, hypothetical is all we have. 

It is obvious where you stand.  Where I stand is somewhere in the middle, if they could prove beyond the benefit of a doubt that domestic and foreign surveillance has a positive impact, then I could reassess where I stand.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19093049 - 11/05/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Ah yes, this is what I was looking for! From that post I can deduce that you do have some knowledge on the topic, though you still have no sources.

If you don't believe there is evidence of benefits out there, then why would you stand on a middle ground when such a vast amount of evidence has been displayed negative impacts of the NSA?

I would love to talk possible benefits :smile:

I actually think that there is evidence of benefits. It does appear that Israel supports the NSA, and strong relations with Israel is a tradition that has been held by a majority of US politicians for a generation. Good diplomacy with Israel is very important to the United States, whether we like it or not.

It's obvious where I stand? I stated in the OP that arguments could be provided which don't represent your personal beliefs.
But yes, you have indeed caught me, I think that the harms of NSA domestic surveillance outweigh the good.
If we were talking about foreign spying by the NSA though, I'm all for that as long as the program isn't attempting to be secret.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19093075 - 11/05/13 10:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

We're not on the same page, but possibly in the same chapter.  The domestic part is part of my biggest concern.  The NSA feeding the DEA, FBI, etc over petty crime, and them then constructing parallel investigations thoroughly frightens me.

But the problem is, even if the NSA stopped domestic surveillance, GCHQ would just do the dirty work and give the NSA the info.  That's how this game works.


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19093565 - 11/06/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately this is probably true, unless the US was to enact some sort of laws that created stricter protection of data privacy, which sounds like something that could turn into massive infringement of the first amendment.


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Edited by HalfLight (11/06/13 01:28 AM)


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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19094189 - 11/06/13 06:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

TTT

”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”
Ben Franklin


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: sweeper54]
    #19094580 - 11/06/13 09:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you're going to quote the man, quote the man.  If you're going to misquote him, don't use quotation marks.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19094867 - 11/06/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This argument is one always used by tyrants throughout history.

The essentials of the argument are:

1. You must surrender your personal freedom for the good of the state.

2. If you do not want to surrender your personal freedom you support enemy attacks on your countrymen and are a traitor.

3. Anyone that does not support war or restriction of freedom is denounced as a traitor.

This was outlined by Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials. He explained how it works the same in every country whether dictatorship or democracy. This is how the people are brought to do the bidding of their leaders.


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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19095082 - 11/06/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
This argument is one always used by tyrants throughout history.

The essentials of the argument are:

1. You must surrender your personal freedom for the good of the state.

2. If you do not want to surrender your personal freedom you support enemy attacks on your countrymen and are a traitor.

3. Anyone that does not support war or restriction of freedom is denounced as a traitor.

This was outlined by Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials. He explained how it works the same in every country whether dictatorship or democracy. This is how the people are brought to do the bidding of their leaders.



What personal freedom have you surrendered to the NSA?  For myself I can answer definitively, "None."  The phone company and IP have all my records anyway and the government can subpoena them any time.  I strongly suggest that you act accordingly.


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