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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19095878 - 11/06/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My personal and economic freedom has been surrendered to the government without my consent.
This is a fault of both the company and the state.
I don't mind that my cell phone provider keeps records of my use, I signed a contract with them that said they would do such.
I mind because when I chose to do business with Verizon, I did not sign any contract that said they would provide information to government surveillance programs if requested to.
I was not informed by any entity (and was instead informed by leaked documents) that a warrant was issued for my call detail records.
Verizon not only complied with the warrant, but never asked me to endorse an adjusted agreement.
This is altogether just bad business.
I have continued consuming Verizon's product due to other benefits they provide, but have adjusted the way I approach phone calls.
These events have made me nervous to speak on the phone with my cousin serving in Afghanistan, out of fear that my call records will be further investigated and my privacy invaded in other calls.
I believe this to be a legitimate reason for distress.


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dead man walking


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OfflineMush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19095999 - 11/06/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Actually, when you signed up with Verizon, I'm pretty sure somewhere in there it says they can share your data with government entities.  Whether they should need a warrant or not is a different question.


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Offlinesweeper54
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 2,865
Last seen: 8 days, 16 hours
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Enlil]
    #19096080 - 11/06/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If you're going to quote the man, quote the man.  If you're going to misquote him, don't use quotation marks.




Copied straight off this site, talk to them

http://www.whatourforefathersthought.com/Quotes.html


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Offlinesweeper54
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Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 2,865
Last seen: 8 days, 16 hours
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19096132 - 11/06/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

and the government can subpoena them any time




And there in lies the difference. The NSA did away with the requirement for the subpoena

So as long as they're not infringing on your 2nd amendment rights it OK take some of your 1st & 4th amendment rights.


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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19096224 - 11/06/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Actually, when you signed up with Verizon, I'm pretty sure somewhere in there it says they can share your data with government entities.  Whether they should need a warrant or not is a different question.




I just checked online, and there are contradictions in the different agreements:

It does state, "We can also temporarily limit your service for any operational or governmental reason."
This is not in the privacy section of the agreement, and is referring to cell phone service they provide me.

"Verizon does not sell, license or share information that individually identifies our customers with others outside of Verizon for non-Verizon purposes without your consent."

"We may disclose information that individually identifies our customers or identifies customer devices in certain circumstances, such as...  ... to comply with valid legal process including subpoenas, court orders or search warrants, and as otherwise authorized by law"

The third quote definitely contradicts the second, and when I have the energy I'll go into my safe and see if the documents that I myself signed said such a thing, or whether the privacy policy was adjusted since then.
Keep in mind that the third quote says "We may disclose" rather than "We will disclose".
It's alarming to me that no flags were raised with the Verizon legal team around the fact that if cell phone data was used as legal evidence it would be forced self-incrimination.
It's also frustrating to think that a warrant was issued and carried out for the collection of my property without my knowledge.

I'm quite certain I photocopied all the documents I had to sign and that they're in my safe, as this is what I typically do for such things, so I'll get back to that.


--------------------
dead man walking


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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: sweeper54]
    #19096233 - 11/06/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Quote:

and the government can subpoena them any time




And there in lies the difference. The NSA did away with the requirement for the subpoena

So as long as they're not infringing on your 2nd amendment rights it OK take some of your 1st & 4th amendment rights.




I don't believe suspension of any 5th amendment rights falls under PRISM. Anyone have any info on this?


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dead man walking


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: sweeper54]
    #19096234 - 11/06/13 04:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Quote:

and the government can subpoena them any time




And there in lies the difference. The NSA did away with the requirement for the subpoena

So as long as they're not infringing on your 2nd amendment rights it OK take some of your 1st & 4th amendment rights.




Let me know when they can use it against me in court.


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OfflineMush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19096487 - 11/06/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Actually, when you signed up with Verizon, I'm pretty sure somewhere in there it says they can share your data with government entities.  Whether they should need a warrant or not is a different question.




I just checked online, and there are contradictions in the different agreements:

It does state, "We can also temporarily limit your service for any operational or governmental reason."
This is not in the privacy section of the agreement, and is referring to cell phone service they provide me.

"Verizon does not sell, license or share information that individually identifies our customers with others outside of Verizon for non-Verizon purposes without your consent."

"We may disclose information that individually identifies our customers or identifies customer devices in certain circumstances, such as...  ... to comply with valid legal process including subpoenas, court orders or search warrants, and as otherwise authorized by law"

The third quote definitely contradicts the second, and when I have the energy I'll go into my safe and see if the documents that I myself signed said such a thing, or whether the privacy policy was adjusted since then.
Keep in mind that the third quote says "We may disclose" rather than "We will disclose".
It's alarming to me that no flags were raised with the Verizon legal team around the fact that if cell phone data was used as legal evidence it would be forced self-incrimination.
It's also frustrating to think that a warrant was issued and carried out for the collection of my property without my knowledge.

I'm quite certain I photocopied all the documents I had to sign and that they're in my safe, as this is what I typically do for such things, so I'll get back to that.




"When otherwise authorized by law" = USA PATRIOT Act.


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OfflineMush4Brains
LOOL HACKED!!!

Registered: 07/31/13
Posts: 4,419
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19096489 - 11/06/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Quote:

and the government can subpoena them any time




And there in lies the difference. The NSA did away with the requirement for the subpoena

So as long as they're not infringing on your 2nd amendment rights it OK take some of your 1st & 4th amendment rights.




Let me know when they can use it against me in court.




"Parallel investigations" mean they will never have to use it against you in court.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
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Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,505
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19096511 - 11/06/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What do you mean by "forced self-incrimination"?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Enlil]
    #19096585 - 11/06/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
"When otherwise authorized by law" = USA PATRIOT Act.



Truth :sad: I really hope that the USA Freedom Act goes through.


Quote:

Enlil said:
What do you mean by "forced self-incrimination"?



Seeing as the numbers which I have called would not be viable evidence in a court, it can be presumed that my records would be used to decide whether to listen in on (and record) my calls, and my words would be used against me as evidence in a court.
I have not provided my words directly to law enforcement or prosecution, and I have not consented for them to take my words from me.
This is forced incrimination of myself.


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dead man walking


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,505
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: HalfLight]
    #19096610 - 11/06/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And you seem not to approve of being forced to incriminate yourself.  I'm not sure why it's an issue, though, since you've no right against being forced to provide evidence that can be used to incriminate you.  You only have a right not to be compelled to testify against yourself.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. [Re: Enlil]
    #19096635 - 11/06/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Good point, it isn't legally self-incrimination.

I would like it defined as such though, along with situations such as undercover law enforcement wearing a "wire" to a drug deal.

It obviously isn't that way though, and I am very unlikely to get my way :lol:


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dead man walking


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