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InvisibleeMpire420
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Would this work as a bulk grow?
    #19091029 - 11/05/13 04:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've cultivated shrooms in the past, but they were always using the BRF cake method. I'd like to grow a higher volume though, so I was wondering if I could do an easy bulk grow by creating the BRF cakes, inoculating, then breaking the cakes apart into a mono-tub. Would this work?


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091049 - 11/05/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Stromrider]
    #19091061 - 11/05/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Awesome. What's the difference between doing something like this and using other methods of bulk grows? I see probably a thousand different methods with all different types of grains. Is there's a benefit to some of the more complex ones?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091095 - 11/05/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Brf only works in half pints. Grains can do well in any size jar. I'd personally go grab yourself a bag of wbs and look up a good tek. I never did brf cakes, and went went strait to wbs and even as a total novice I did fine.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091100 - 11/05/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This will work. And it has been done many times.

Search for "Crumble and Case"


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19091111 - 11/05/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A huge difference for most people is you need a PC for Any kind of grains but not for BRF


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #19091117 - 11/05/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
This will work. And it has been done many times.

Search for "Crumble and Case"



Casing cakes does not increase yield....spawning to bulk does.

To increase yield you must increase moisture content and nutrients.

Casing does neither......Spawning to bulk does both....


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19091129 - 11/05/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The reason I asked about BRF is because I have all the supplies to do it already, and I've always had decent results in the past with it. I'll look up wbs teks, any links to good teks?
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
This will work. And it has been done many times.

Search for "Crumble and Case"



Casing cakes does not increase yield....spawning to bulk does.

To increase yield you must increase moisture content and nutrients.

Casing does neither......Spawning to bulk does both....




Could you elaborate? Does this mean don't wait till birthing to crumble and putting in a tub?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091151 - 11/05/13 04:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eMpire420 said:
The reason I asked about BRF is because I have all the supplies to do it already, and I've always had decent results in the past with it. I'll look up wbs teks, any links to good teks?
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
This will work. And it has been done many times.

Search for "Crumble and Case"



Casing cakes does not increase yield....spawning to bulk does.

To increase yield you must increase moisture content and nutrients.

Casing does neither......Spawning to bulk does both....




Could you elaborate? Does this mean don't wait till birthing to crumble and putting in a tub?



It means crumble and mix with a pasteurized bulk substrate material.

Do not just crumble the cakes and apply a casing layer....you might as well have just fruited them as cakes if you do that.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19091171 - 11/05/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

eMpire420 said:
The reason I asked about BRF is because I have all the supplies to do it already, and I've always had decent results in the past with it. I'll look up wbs teks, any links to good teks?
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
This will work. And it has been done many times.

Search for "Crumble and Case"



Casing cakes does not increase yield....spawning to bulk does.

To increase yield you must increase moisture content and nutrients.

Casing does neither......Spawning to bulk does both....




Could you elaborate? Does this mean don't wait till birthing to crumble and putting in a tub?



It means crumble and mix with a pasteurized bulk substrate material.

Do not just crumble the cakes and apply a casing layer....you might as well have just fruited them as cakes if you do that.




But you always inoculate the jars before mixing with the bulk substrate?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19091183 - 11/05/13 05:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I always used this one when is was learning except I wouldn't rinse after simmering cause you can't get the grains dry enough, and I would poor them over a window screen instead of a strainer.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19091242 - 11/05/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Bro.. to the OP.

Your avatar has a lot of meaning too me.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091246 - 11/05/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eMpire420 said:
But you always inoculate the jars before mixing with the bulk substrate?



Yes....inoculate the cakes and let them fully colonize.

Then break up the fully colonized cakes and mix them with the pasteurized bulk substrate material.

Let that fully colonize and fruit it.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19091269 - 11/05/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

inoculate your cakes. When they are 100% colonized, dunk them. Instead of putting them in your SGFC,....

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
...crumble and mix with a pasteurized bulk substrate material.

Do not just crumble the cakes and apply a casing layer....you might as well have just fruited them as cakes if you do that.




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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Nice Ol Bud]
    #19091278 - 11/05/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
I always used this one when is was learning except I wouldn't rinse after simmering cause you can't get the grains dry enough, and I would poor them over a window screen instead of a strainer.




Wow! This is by far the most straight forward and easy to follow guide I've read. I always avoided bulk grows in the beginning because I found some of them to be too overwhelming, and some that just threw out terms without explaining the meaning of them. Thanks for the link!

Quote:

Nice Ol Bud said:
Bro.. to the OP.

Your avatar has a lot of meaning too me.




It's beautiful, isn't it? I find myself staring at the high resolution gif of it even when I'm completely sober.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091368 - 11/05/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Almost shows how were all just.. similar..
Barely any difference..
Really brings out the open minded-ness of me.

Shit but who doesn't know that were all ONE anyways?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Nice Ol Bud]
    #19091412 - 11/05/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Wow! This is by far the most straight forward and easy to follow guide I've read. I always avoided bulk grows in the beginning because I found some of them to be too overwhelming, and some that just threw out terms without explaining the meaning of them. Thanks for the link!



Of course! I think a lot of newcomers are intimidated by grains because they are usually associated with more advanced techniques, but they really are easier than brf cakes. After you follow that tek a couple of times you'll get down your own method and you won't even need the tek anymore. It really is quite simple. I'm glad I could help!


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19091653 - 11/05/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

One more thing. If I do quart jars for a WBS tek, would 2cc of spores be enough?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091790 - 11/05/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

When I used to use syringes, I used 1cc per quart jar of rye berries.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (11/05/13 06:57 PM)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19091908 - 11/05/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eMpire420 said:
One more thing. If I do quart jars for a WBS tek, would 2cc of spores be enough?



That's plenty, I used 0.8 of a cc on my first grow. It works out to 12 jars from 10cc's which is what I was expecting, but the distributed gave an extra cc. Haha. So yeah, 2 is beyond enough. It only takes 2 spores!


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19092455 - 11/05/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
This will work. And it has been done many times.

Search for "Crumble and Case"



Casing cakes does not increase yield....spawning to bulk does.

To increase yield you must increase moisture content and nutrients.

Casing does neither......Spawning to bulk does both....




Casing does increase moisture, assuming you do it with a moist, pasteurized casing material.  It's actually one of the defining characteristics of casing material.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092534 - 11/05/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A casing layer helps retain moisture...it does not add it.

It's the exact same thing as rolling them in verm, then misting them.

So what really is there to gain?


Edited by PussyFart (11/05/13 09:07 PM)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19092578 - 11/05/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, it's not.  It's the exact same as coating a cake in a quarter of an inch of vermiculite hydrated to field capacity, because what you're doing is adding a quarter-inch layer which is hydrated to field capacity.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092588 - 11/05/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ive seen some pretty thick verm rolled cakes....


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19092594 - 11/05/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Once again, that's dry verm, which has less water in it than wet verm or wet peat or wet verm/peat or wet jiffy or wet anything that's wet because that means it has water in it, which means you're adding water.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092596 - 11/05/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

derp derp derp


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092610 - 11/05/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Do you not mist the cakes ever after rolling them in this dry verm?

Or does it stay dry forever?

You see, you also add water to cakes in a FC...so it's basically the same.

In fact, the misted verm on cakes gets wetter than field capacity sometimes....


Edited by PussyFart (11/05/13 09:20 PM)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19092617 - 11/05/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eMpire420 said:
One more thing. If I do quart jars for a WBS tek, would 2cc of spores be enough?





I'd take that 2cc and make a lc using extra light malt extract. This is what I've done and I now have 2 strong lc with good results.  I put about 3-4 cc of lc in my jars.  This is my 3rd grow and it's going well.  Don't forget to dunk your grains.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: refried]
    #19092623 - 11/05/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

refried said:
Quote:

eMpire420 said:
One more thing. If I do quart jars for a WBS tek, would 2cc of spores be enough?





I'd take that 2cc and make a lc using extra light malt extract. This is what I've done and I now have 2 strong lc with good results.  I put about 3-4 cc of lc in my jars.  This is my 3rd grow and it's going well.  Don't forget to dunk your grains.



or to make your life easier.
put 1 cc in a quart jar. grow it out then gtg it to 8-10 more quart jars.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19092652 - 11/05/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Do you not mist the cakes ever after rolling them in this dry verm?

Or does it stay dry forever?

You see, you also add water to cakes in a FC...so it's basically the same.

In fact, the misted verm on cakes gets wetter than field capacity sometimes....




So now you're arguing that when you add a layer of something that retains moisture, then add moisture, what you're not doing is adding moisture.

Got it.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: eMpire420]
    #19092672 - 11/05/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

eMpire420 said:
Awesome. What's the difference between doing something like this and using other methods of bulk grows? I see probably a thousand different methods with all different types of grains. Is there's a benefit to some of the more complex ones?




For a typical monotub you would need 5 - 7 quarts of mushroom spawn.  I'm assuming you want to do brf cakes because you lack a pressure cooker.  If you have the cooker you SHOULD just do grains.  But if you want an 'easy' way to spawn to bulk you can use damien5050's coir tek (https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595) and replace the 5 - 7 quarts of grain spawn with 20 - 28 half pint jars of brf.

If the brf jars are what you're sticking with then I would imagine this would be the 'easiest' and cheapest way to spawn to a typical size monotub using cakes.

That's a lot of your free time to steam sterilize the jars though.  More room for error.  What if you only do 20 jars and 5 become contaminated?  You try to start over but now your other jars are two weeks ahead of the new ones and by the time the new ones finish colonizing the first set is already pinning invitro.  But then two of the jars in the second round stall out, etc etc.  A lot could go wrong. 

Hope to see what you grow soon!  Keep the positive attitude! :awesome:


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092679 - 11/05/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, I am saying that breaking up cakes and adding a casing layer is no different than just fruiting dunked and rolled cakes whole.

You are not really adding any more moisture or nutrients by doing this.

Now when you spawn to bulk substrate, you are adding LOTS MORE moisture, and LOTS MORE nutrients.

So then there will be a noticeable difference in yield.

Rolling cakes in verm and then misting them is essentially casing them in verm.

It is the same thing as adding a casing layer that already has moisture in it.

Do I really need to go into this much detail for it to be understood?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19092693 - 11/05/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
No, I am saying that breaking up cakes and adding a casing layer is no different than just fruiting dunked and rolled cakes whole.

You are not really adding any more moisture or nutrients by doing this.

Now when you spawn to bulk substrate, you are adding LOTS MORE moisture, and LOTS MORE nutrients.

So then there will be a noticeable difference in yield.

Rolling cakes in verm and then misting them is essentially casing them in verm.

It is the same thing as adding a casing layer that already has moisture in it.

Do I really need to go into this much detail for it to be understood?




You're going to need to go into much more than that if you want to convince me that a non-nutritive layer of hydrated material provides an insignificant amount of hydration. :rofl:


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092723 - 11/05/13 09:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
You're going to need to go into much more than that if you want to convince me that a non-nutritive layer of hydrated material provides an insignificant amount of hydration. :rofl:






I never said that. It works fine when we coat our cakes with it.

The moisture cakes get comes from a bottle.

The same bottle you use on your casing layer, once it dries up a little.(from field capacity.)

We mist our cakes to get the dry verm to field capacity.

It's the same shit.

I never said either one of them was insignificant....I specifically said it was the same shit, so why bother.


Edited by PussyFart (11/05/13 09:41 PM)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092735 - 11/05/13 09:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
No, I am saying that breaking up cakes and adding a casing layer is no different than just fruiting dunked and rolled cakes whole.

You are not really adding any more moisture or nutrients by doing this.

Now when you spawn to bulk substrate, you are adding LOTS MORE moisture, and LOTS MORE nutrients.

So then there will be a noticeable difference in yield.

Rolling cakes in verm and then misting them is essentially casing them in verm.

It is the same thing as adding a casing layer that already has moisture in it.

Do I really need to go into this much detail for it to be understood?




You're going to need to go into much more than that if you want to convince me that a non-nutritive layer of hydrated material provides an insignificant amount of hydration. :rofl:




Correct me plz...a non nutritive layer that is not being colonized adds no moisture to the sub but adds moisture to the micro climate at the sub.  Yeah?


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Rubestoad]
    #19092754 - 11/05/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yea....but in this case, what it adds to rolled cakes is no different than what it adds to broken up cased cakes....moisture retention and a microclimate for pinning.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092768 - 11/05/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Adding a moist casing layer to crumbled cakes or rolling cakes and misting them only adds moisture to the surface and helps retain existing moisture.

To add moisture to the cakes, the moisture has to be added to the cake material, crumbled or not.

Crumbling and mixing with a field capacity substrate accomplishes this. A casing layer does not.

Cakes get dunked.

For best results, mix your cakes with a bulk substrate. Casing does not increase yields, unless you count rolling cakes.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: PussyFart]
    #19092837 - 11/05/13 10:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

van der griegen said:
You're going to need to go into much more than that if you want to convince me that a non-nutritive layer of hydrated material provides an insignificant amount of hydration. :rofl:



I never said that.




No?

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:

To increase yield you must increase moisture content and nutrients.

Casing does neither......Spawning to bulk does both....




Spitball, mycelium excels at sharing moisture.  Providing moisture to any place that touches mycelium, let alone one that's partially colonized by mycelium, results in the entire sub getting hydration.  This is the entire basis of mycorrhizal relationships, but also of misting, bottom watering, or any other scenario that provides moisture to a part of the organism but not all of it. 

:feelingblue:
caption:  David Tennant (with no additional moisture)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092843 - 11/05/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:smbfacepalm:


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19092919 - 11/05/13 10:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
No, I am saying that breaking up cakes and adding a casing layer is no different than just fruiting dunked and rolled cakes whole.

You are not really adding any more moisture or nutrients by doing this.

Now when you spawn to bulk substrate, you are adding LOTS MORE moisture, and LOTS MORE nutrients.

So then there will be a noticeable difference in yield.

Rolling cakes in verm and then misting them is essentially casing them in verm.

It is the same thing as adding a casing layer that already has moisture in it.

Do I really need to go into this much detail for it to be understood?




You're going to need to go into much more than that if you want to convince me that a non-nutritive layer of hydrated material provides an insignificant amount of hydration. :rofl:






Three cakes cased with straight verm at field capacity.  Does that look like an increased yield to you?  Though they looked pretty like that looking like a forest they didn't yield substantially more or less than any of my individual cakes.

Casing cakes with field capacity verm doesn't increase yield.  It's the same as rolling in dry verm and misting.


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Edited by elasticaltiger (11/05/13 10:23 PM)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19093094 - 11/05/13 10:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:


Three cakes cased with straight verm at field capacity.  Does that look like an increased yield to you?  Though they looked pretty like that looking like a forest they didn't yield substantially more or less than any of my individual cakes.

Casing cakes with field capacity verm doesn't increase yield.  It's the same as rolling in dry verm and misting.




What it looks like to me is a multispore grow.  And rolling in dry verm and misting does increase yield.  That's why we do it.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19093235 - 11/05/13 11:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

elasticaltiger said:


Three cakes cased with straight verm at field capacity.  Does that look like an increased yield to you?  Though they looked pretty like that looking like a forest they didn't yield substantially more or less than any of my individual cakes.

Casing cakes with field capacity verm doesn't increase yield.  It's the same as rolling in dry verm and misting.




What it looks like to me is a multispore grow.  And rolling in dry verm and misting does increase yield.  That's why we do it.




:facepalm3: Really dude?  You know I meant casing with field capacity verm doesn't increase yield MORE THAN rolling in dry verm and misting.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear but I find it hard to believe that you didn't understand what I meant.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19093349 - 11/05/13 11:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

elasticaltiger said:Sorry if I didn't make that clear but I find it hard to believe that you didn't understand what I meant.




I find it hard to believe I'm having this argument at all.  I don't want to talk about whether a casing layer improves cubensis yields significantly--it has not been shown to, and I agree with you there.  But this whole argument is about NAH's incorrect assertion that casing layers provide no moisture, which is so wrong it's funny, with a brief aside about whether mycelia can redistribute moisture.

As for whether it provides more moisture than dunking?  You can case a tray with a much, much larger volume of moist vermiculite than the one-particle-thick layer of dry vermiculite you can get to stick to a completely covered cake.  I'm not an advocate of casing anything, guys.  But it's just not correct to say it provides no moisture.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19094147 - 11/06/13 06:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
:feelingblue:
caption:  David Tennant (with no additional moisture)




David is getting wetter on the surface. His surface will dry soon after he's out of the rain. He is not becoming more hydrated. This pic is silly.

You are missing the big picture. I can't believe you're having this argument either.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19094197 - 11/06/13 06:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

David is not made out of hyphae, which can draw water toward the main mycelial mass from a depth of ten meters or more.


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: Psilicon]
    #19094257 - 11/06/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I understand what you're saying. I have from the beginning. I'm not saying you are wrong.

On a strictly technical level, you are correct. But, in the spirit of what's trying to be accomplished, Hacker is also correct.

Depending on a casing as THE source of moisture is, IMHO, bad practice. Much like the trickle-down logic of Reaganomics.

Cakes (crumbled or not) need to be hydrated directly.

With crumbling, mixing with properly hydrated substrate is superior to casing for this purpose.

Adding a casing layer does not add water to crumbled cakes in a significant way. Mixing does.

I can accept your arguments as being technically reasonable, but your position is primarily semantic in nature and does not support best practices, which is really the point.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (11/06/13 08:58 AM)


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Re: Would this work as a bulk grow? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19096744 - 11/06/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
I understand what you're saying. I have from the beginning. I'm not saying you are wrong.

On a strictly technical level, you are correct. But, in the spirit of what's trying to be accomplished, Hacker is also correct.

Depending on a casing as THE source of moisture is, IMHO, bad practice. Much like the trickle-down logic of Reaganomics.

Cakes (crumbled or not) need to be hydrated directly.

With crumbling, mixing with properly hydrated substrate is superior to casing for this purpose.

Adding a casing layer does not add water to crumbled cakes in a significant way. Mixing does.

I can accept your arguments as being technically reasonable, but your position is primarily semantic in nature and does not support best practices, which is really the point.




:thumbup:

I can definitely meet you halfway there, for sure.  I do not agree that the amount of water provided is trivial, but vehemently agree that relying on casing for moisture is far from best practices.  It is my opinion (based on little but conjecture, but I think many will agree) that a really productive clone in a monotub will push the bounds of what is possible both spatially and in terms of nutrition.  Casing provides an amount of moisture that, while not insignificant in terms of percentage of the whole, does not make a difference because of the other limiting factors in a good monotub.  Someday I might like to do a study of casing on a poor or moderate producer to compare results, as it is my suspicion that the studies that showed there to be no difference were done on high producers where other limiting factors made the difference between the two insignificant--kind of like a distance race between two cars that are governed at 140mph.


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