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OfflineKGB Is Go
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"I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." * 1
    #19091006 - 11/05/13 04:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?


--------------------
"The guy went axe-happy on a trout farm, he killed 60 fish."


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 2
    #19091035 - 11/05/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

yea well courages dosers are no friends of mine :snub: - zZZz


no but he has a good point. why waste your time with low doses and possibly have a short lasting impression when you could dive in head first and possibly never have the urge to trip for several years


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Offlinemnj
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19091042 - 11/05/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Can't always eat steak and potatoes, sometimes ya just gotta have a piece of jerky. Ya know?


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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19091047 - 11/05/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?



I would've completely agreed 3-4 years ago when I did heroic doses of anything even first time RCs. Now I don't use at all so it sounds a little bit biased.


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Invisiblepirate-blues
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 4
    #19091051 - 11/05/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Bulllshit. Sounds like bad advice.

The first time I tried shrooms it was overwhelming, I hit ego death at a big party where I was trying to interact with drunk people who didn't know I was tripping(and I was trying to keep it that way). Luckily my friend was hosting and we locked ourselves in the bathroom for the peak, and all was well. It was pretty magical. You know how much that was? About 2-2.5 grams of a particularly potent batch, they even blew my friends mind who had more tolerance.

But most people seem to start at about 3.5gs at least, even a full 1/4 - and if I had done that, holy shit, I don't want to know. Point being, listen to your body, listen to your mind.


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Invisiblemutantmushroom
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: pirate-blues] * 1
    #19091070 - 11/05/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It depends on the person I think. If doing a high dose will scare you enough to never do it again then I say work your way up. But if you have faith in the trip and realize it won't hurt you by all means go for it! Psychedelics must be respected or else. I also notice that the small doses are usually the harder trips for me. I think it has to do with me being stuck in between two worlds and i cant choose which one to go with. I say go big or go home.


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When you put the best effort you can into something, you’re bound to get something good out of it



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OfflineShroomerited
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: pirate-blues] * 1
    #19091087 - 11/05/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Mushrooms are just a drug like any other drug. Just like weed, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, caffeine, or whatever.

I've had plenty of fun on mushrooms and they've helped me develop. But at the end of the day it's just a chemical playing tricks on my mind.

Also, he's being incredibly elitist, condescending and arrogant. He's usually that way, and that's why I have a passive dislike of him.


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Invisiblepirate-blues
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: mutantmushroom]
    #19091099 - 11/05/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I've micro-dosed a lot with mushrooms - I definitely believe in the therapeutic values of psychedelics and while a poignant trip can be a life changing thing, there's something to be said for microdosing. Especially if the setting is not hospitable to larger doses. One of my favorite combos is 0.5-1g of mushrooms, and a lower dose of good mdma taken orally(I'd say I hover around 75-100mg tops, myself). Sooo many good feels, so great for socializing, with all the afterglow I could hope for.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 1
    #19091107 - 11/05/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Didn't Terrance eventually quit the shrooms because shit got too heavy? :lol:


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Invisible404
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19091110 - 11/05/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

microdosing.


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Offlines240779
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 3
    #19091142 - 11/05/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Reckless. I don't like Mckenna.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Hobozen]
    #19091147 - 11/05/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
Didn't Terrance eventually quit the shrooms because shit got too heavy? :lol:




perfectly acceptable if he did. the dude took heavy doses in the amazon jungle in the middle of no where.


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InvisiblePoor Boy
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz]
    #19091174 - 11/05/13 05:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i like both. i enjoy heavy doses and i enjoy lite doses.

im cool with eating 2.5 gs of mush and going out or to a party or what have you. im sure as hell aint gonna eat 5 grams and go about my day.


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OfflinePanGaia
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz] * 2
    #19091236 - 11/05/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He has a very strong, specific opinion on how psychedelics are to be used. Most people don't agree with every single aspect of what he thinks. I can definitely see where he's coming from, and ultimately I believe high dose work turns out to be more beneficial. McKenna believed in taking doses that guaranteed ego death, therefore eliminating any potential for a "bad trip". Whether or not that method is valid is up for grabs. I will say that high dose silent darkness work is sanctioned by thousands of years of shamanism.

This being said, I don't think people really read between the lines with McKenna. He had all these batshit crazy ideas, but he wasn't mainly trying to spread his ideas to the psychedelic community. He was merely giving an example of the things people should be talking about. He was all about setting up the psychedelic community, creating spaces for people to communicate ideas.


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OfflineMrMoo
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz] * 1
    #19091238 - 11/05/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.

It seems a bit disingenuous to then say that "nibblers are no friend of mine" and to continue espousing high doses in silent darkness for the rest of his life without going into the fact that he got scared shitless and hardly, if at all, went there again himself for the rest of his life.

Very true that he went deep frequently for a good few decades a few times a month prior to 1988 so he knows the territory as much as most and it is not a bad thing (in fact, I'm glad he still promoted psychedelics in general) to continue talking of these and promoting these experiences for other people to explore but he never did mention publicly that he had been rocked to the core and no longer took his own advice... so calling out people that work with low doses as nibblers and no friends of mine is a bit harsh IMO.

I greatly admire Terence's mind, he is one of my favourite pontificators and thinkers of the 20th century but I think his high dose advice can be a bit ill conceived depending on the person and there own constitution... different strokes for different folks and all.


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InvisibleTrentBoyett
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19091399 - 11/05/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?




I am a fan of going all out. That is why I reccomend atleast 3.5g's to first timers.

I also think microdosing can be beneficial though.


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OfflinePanGaia
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: TrentBoyett]
    #19091425 - 11/05/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mjmihalov said:


I am a fan of going all out. That is why I reccomend atleast 3.5g's to first timers.

I also think microdosing can be beneficial though.




My first trip was 3.5 g's. It was difficult at times, but I'm glad I went that far, the good times always outweigh the bad. It was at least a perfect first dose for me.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19091430 - 11/05/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?







He sounds like someone I wouldn't want to be friends with.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: memes]
    #19091437 - 11/05/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

he was probably just on an ego trip. im sure he became more humble years later


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Invisiblememes
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz]
    #19091447 - 11/05/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
he was probably just on an ego trip. im sure he became more humble years later




[cali stoner accent] thought lsd was supposed to shatter yer ego, brah'? [/cali]


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: memes]
    #19091458 - 11/05/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

fame brahchoskeedoskee


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OfflineAlmond Flour
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: MrMoo] * 1
    #19091531 - 11/05/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I dont agree with the act in itself, but the quote and what he was trying to say is definitely worth a second glance.

He viewed psychedelics differently in a spiritual and mental sense. Hes not telling you to gravity bong 50x salvia at a party with 2 torch lighters. Hes saying if you arent willing to dive into yourself and your experiance with full force, you are a scrub.

I can totally respect that, psychedelics or not.....it was the person he is referencing there


--------------------
Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church" :morningtoke:


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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: MrMoo]
    #19091949 - 11/05/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MrMoo said:
Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.





Is this in Dennis' new book?


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OfflineKGB Is Go
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Middleman]
    #19091999 - 11/05/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
Quote:

MrMoo said:
Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.





Is this in Dennis' new book?



I believe it is. This Erowid column post contains a nice analysis on the matter.

Here is the relevant excerpt:

"And now Dennis is saying that Terence himself basically stopped taking mushrooms sometime in the late 1980s, more than ten years before terminal illness put an untimely end to his enthusiastic evangelism. It seems that he had an anomalous mushroom experience in Hawaii that made him extremely reluctant to continue with his practice. According to Dennis, he thereafter abjured the mushroom almost entirely, and partook of ayahuasca and DMT only very rarely, and always at relatively low dosage levels.

These fun facts hit the Internet after Lorenzo Hagerty, who hosts the well-known Psychedelic Salon podcast, played a few clips from a two-day workshop entitled “Terence McKenna: Beyond 2012″ that he and scientist/designer Bruce Damer had facilitated at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California in June 2012. In one of those clips Damer reads some sneak preview excerpts from Dennis McKenna’s much anticipated book, The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, in which Dennis spills the beans about Terence’s decade-long abstinence and talks a bit about the self-doubt and existential angst that apparently haunted at least the last few years of his late brother’s unusual career."


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"The guy went axe-happy on a trout farm, he killed 60 fish."


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Invisiblememes
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092036 - 11/05/13 07:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the universe always gets ya in the end. 


"eat your words, terence!"
-the collective behind the curtain


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OfflineAlmond Flour
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092070 - 11/05/13 07:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
Quote:

MrMoo said:
Interesting... This talk was in 1989, according to his brother Dennis, his horrifying bad trip on mushrooms was 1988 that scared him off high doses pretty much for the rest of his life and which apparently made him reluctant to high dose other psychedelics also and take them with much less frequency and turned him into a diddler in his own vernacular.





Is this in Dennis' new book?



I believe it is. This Erowid column post contains a nice analysis on the matter.

Here is the relevant excerpt:

"And now Dennis is saying that Terence himself basically stopped taking mushrooms sometime in the late 1980s, more than ten years before terminal illness put an untimely end to his enthusiastic evangelism. It seems that he had an anomalous mushroom experience in Hawaii that made him extremely reluctant to continue with his practice. According to Dennis, he thereafter abjured the mushroom almost entirely, and partook of ayahuasca and DMT only very rarely, and always at relatively low dosage levels.

These fun facts hit the Internet after Lorenzo Hagerty, who hosts the well-known Psychedelic Salon podcast, played a few clips from a two-day workshop entitled “Terence McKenna: Beyond 2012″ that he and scientist/designer Bruce Damer had facilitated at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California in June 2012. In one of those clips Damer reads some sneak preview excerpts from Dennis McKenna’s much anticipated book, The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss, in which Dennis spills the beans about Terence’s decade-long abstinence and talks a bit about the self-doubt and existential angst that apparently haunted at least the last few years of his late brother’s unusual career."




I read a paper on his cancer and some of his thoughts, he definitely toned it down and was humbled by the experience.


--------------------
Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church" :morningtoke:


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OfflineKGB Is Go
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092464 - 11/05/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Regarding the question in OP, I see two separate questions (with the second being more important):
  • 1. What do you think about Terence having said this? and
  • 2. Do you agree about high doses, based on your experience?

1. I don't think I know enough to really comment, but here's my take: On one hand, it seems that Terence eventually renounced the mushroom, after an especially horrifying trip, and from that point on only took DMT/Ayahuasca at low doses. So eventually his actions contradicted his words, which might make his comment null and void.

On the other hand, Terence is arguably one of the most inspiring figures in the psychedelic community. Beyond this, I think it's fair to say he had quite an amazing mind and and incredible command of language. I think he would favour the mushroom as having made a great contribution to his ability to use words, and more generally how his mind took shape during his life.

So in the end, (sounds an obvious thing to say but) I guess there's both potential harm and benefit in high doses. And they aren't for everyone all the time. So my feeling is his comment was a bit reckless/optimistic.

2. IME, I've had a tough time simply with moderate, let alone high, or heroic, doses of mushrooms. I'm not sure if my 'bad' experience has been due to lack of courage or poor attitude etc., and whether higher doses may have helped me transcend the unpleasant experiences or not.

I tend to be pretty cautious by nature. I'm certainly one to test the waters before jumping in, and I don't follow others blindly in good faith. I think I was a bit reckless with my first dose - which was probably my largest so far - so I've been trying to nibble my way into the mushroom realm in effort to travel freely.

I've read a few people say that lower doses can be more difficult because you're below some kind of threshold which may confuse things and can cause some anxiety. Might be true but I don't really have the desire/balls to find out just yet.

(With LSD, on the other hand, I've had no negative experiences yet which would cause me to lower my dose. But I'm still upping my dose gradually.)

- - -

I'd be curious to know what kind of doses they go for in clinical settings with the intent for healing/therapy (with LSD/psilocybin/MDMA)...


--------------------
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InvisibleAlexestalex
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz]
    #19092536 - 11/05/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, I like Terrence Mckenna and I find his work fascinating, but that quote is so misleading and destructive. Psychedelics aren't toys, they are one of the most intense, frightening, eye-opening experiences that the mind is able to experience. Eating 5 grams for a first timer and dropping down the deep and never ending rabbit hole can lead to serious negative consequences  for the user's mind. PTSD is a serious disorder, don't fuck around with that.

Any inexperienced user, no matter the situation, should start off with a LOW dose. Doing psychedelics shouldn't be a courage competition- that just gives it a bad name and reinforces the unnecessary stigma that's already attached to it. If everybody abided by this rule, I feel like psychedelics would actually have a shot at being studied psychologically and perhaps even legalized. Stupid people who attempt doses beyond their threshold are the ones who end up hurting others, killing themselves, and being the root of the problem. :thumbdown:


--------------------

Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092579 - 11/05/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I appreciate even the little things, I don't need much to enjoy a buzz (rather I notice a change of mind very quickly)

That counts for all drugs other then psychedelics: all the way!


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Alexestalex]
    #19092633 - 11/05/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I like listening to McKenna, and I find him interesting.  But if you ever listen to his stuff pre like '81  its definitely got a different spin than the stuff after.  The rhetoric definitely had way more fire to it.
And I can't really get behind some of his ideas.  I mean the whole "Timewave-zero"  is too out there for me.  Also when reading "True hallucinations"  I thought the idea of transindental word objects coalescing out of their yelling voices its just  :tinfoil:
There comes a point where if you can't re-integrate the experience back into your everyday life, you've got to leave it behind in that realm.  If not you end up trying to life in that non-temporal space and end up like John Lilly at the end.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #19092649 - 11/05/13 09:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

To a degree. Ayahuasca has completely obliterated my urge to dive any deeper on psychedelics. However, I still do enjoy a solid +++/++++ much more than anything below that. I need to be immersed


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OfflineMrMoo
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19092746 - 11/05/13 09:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
Regarding the question in OP, I see two separate questions (with the second being more important):
  • 1. What do you think about Terence having said this? and
  • 2. Do you agree about high doses, based on your experience?

1. I don't think I know enough to really comment, but here's my take: On one hand, it seems that Terence eventually renounced the mushroom, after an especially horrifying trip, and from that point on only took DMT/Ayahuasca at low doses. So eventually his actions contradicted his words, which might make his comment null and void.

On the other hand, Terence is arguably one of the most inspiring figures in the psychedelic community. Beyond this, I think it's fair to say he had quite an amazing mind and and incredible command of language. I think he would favour the mushroom as having made a great contribution to his ability to use words, and more generally how his mind took shape during his life.

So in the end, (sounds an obvious thing to say but) I guess there's both potential harm and benefit in high doses. And they aren't for everyone all the time. So my feeling is his comment was a bit reckless/optimistic.

2. IME, I've had a tough time simply with moderate, let alone high, or heroic, doses of mushrooms. I'm not sure if my 'bad' experience has been due to lack of courage or poor attitude etc., and whether higher doses may have helped me transcend the unpleasant experiences or not.

I tend to be pretty cautious by nature. I'm certainly one to test the waters before jumping in, and I don't follow others blindly in good faith. I think I was a bit reckless with my first dose - which was probably my largest so far - so I've been trying to nibble my way into the mushroom realm in effort to travel freely.

I've read a few people say that lower doses can be more difficult because you're below some kind of threshold which may confuse things and can cause some anxiety. Might be true but I don't really have the desire/balls to find out just yet.

(With LSD, on the other hand, I've had no negative experiences yet which would cause me to lower my dose. But I'm still upping my dose gradually.)

- - -

I'd be curious to know what kind of doses they go for in clinical settings with the intent for healing/therapy (with LSD/psilocybin/MDMA)...




Pretty much this ^

I'd like to think Terence still believed in his message up until the end and I think he did. You simply don't forget those deeper experiences and the messages they entail. He was a maverick of the mind and a brilliant free thinker and speaker and has helped shape my own views on reality along with other luminaries and my experiences with altered states.

I don't agree with his statement of being a diddle, each to there own and his position on it may have changed over the last decade of his life anyway.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: MrMoo] * 1
    #19093313 - 11/05/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

irrelevant but did you know dennis mckenna knew about the shroomery?




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OfflineNotTheDevil
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19093530 - 11/06/13 12:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?



Sounds like :dawerp:
like :underage:
like your not good enough unless you take high doses of drugs
like "ugh you did one gram of mushies, I did ten"


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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: NotTheDevil] * 1
    #19093599 - 11/06/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You would be an idiot for taking levels of hallucinogenics based on some judgmental quote from someone. Be "courageous" and take however much you wanna take large or small who gives a fuck. What does that bloke know what you're looking for or afraid of :shrug:


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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Skinty]
    #19093616 - 11/06/13 01:17 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

lol a few years ago terrance was like a god amongst shroomites and peeps would gladly take the courages dose on account of mckenna. :lol:


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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 1
    #19093624 - 11/06/13 01:20 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I actually am thinking the opposite these days, that the best thing you can do with any drug is start at the lowest possible dose and then gradually climb up by tiny increments with each successive experiment, until you find your sweet spot. Its the safest way to get to know a substance and you can still find your way to heroic doses eventually, but you do it one step at a time, with patience, persistence and care. To me doing tiny doses first and working up to high doses is the obvious, logical thing to do for maximum safety. To rush to a high dose is just impatient really, whats the hurry? You can get there in time, one step at a time.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #19093666 - 11/06/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I actually am thinking the opposite these days, that the best thing you can do with any drug is start at the lowest possible dose and then gradually climb up by tiny increments with each successive experiment, until you find your sweet spot. Its the safest way to get to know a substance and you can still find your way to heroic doses eventually, but you do it one step at a time, with patience, persistence and care. To me doing tiny doses first and working up to high doses is the obvious, logical thing to do for maximum safety. To rush to a high dose is just impatient really, whats the hurry? You can get there in time, one step at a time.





How lacking in "courage" :wink::lol:


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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go] * 1
    #19093735 - 11/06/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?




I take big doses when I feel like it, which is not always. Sometimes I like a light trip. :shrug:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #19093781 - 11/06/13 02:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dennis McKenna said:

"Terence's pivotal existential crisis came abruptly. Sometime in '88 or '89. Everything that happened after that event was fallout. I don't know exactly when it happened and I don't know exactly what happened. I am piecing it together from what Kat has told me and she has volunteered few details and I am reluctant to probe. It happened when they were living for a time on the Big Island and it was a mushroom trip they shared that was absolutely terrifying for Terence. It was terrifying because, for some reason, the mushroom turned on him. The gentle, wise, humorous mushroom spirit that he had come to know and trust as an ally and teacher ripped back the facade to reveal an abyss of utter existential despair. Terence kept saying, so Kat told me, that it was, "a lack of all meaning, a lack of all meaning." And this induced panic in Terence and probably, I speculate, a feeling that he was going mad. He couldn't deal with it. Kat's efforts to reassure him were fruitless. After that experience, he never again took mushrooms and he took other psychedelics such as DMT and Ayahuasca only on rare occasions and with great reluctance.

Whatever the specific content of the psychedelic experience might have been that triggered the cognitive collapse of Terence's worldview and precipitated his existential crisis, what was most remarkable was that he did not see it coming. He did not see it coming.

When one works deeply, and over long periods, with a particular plant teacher, there inevitably comes a point where the examination of the self comes front and center. One may learn much from psychedelics about archetypes, myths, and other dimensions, shamanic techniques, aliens and the construction of the cosmogonic and cognitive worldview, but sooner or later they hold up a mirror in which one must confront the self.

I believe Terence was not up for that. Up to that point, his existentially terrifying experience, his mushroom encounters had been very much about the Other, about receiving gnosis from a higher wisdom that was seemingly distinct from the self. But the source that originated the funny ideas about time, the extraterrestrial origins of the mushroom, and the entire metaphysics constructed around those ideas that Terence managed to make so appealing to his fans, were almost all entirely cerebral.

There was very little of self-reflection, emotion, or insight in those constructs. As long as it stayed on that level, Terence could handle it. When it became personal, and when it became about heart-related insights having to do with his emotional status and his relationships to others, I think it became very threatening for him. The mushrooms proffered the lesson, but it was not a lesson that Terence wanted to accept or acknowledge. It was too much about the self and no longer about the Other.

Since earliest childhood, ever since the incident in the sandbox, when Terence erected an emotional wall between himself and our father, Terence had been concerned to protect himself from almost all emotional entanglements, as a strategy for self-preservation. When the mushrooms kicked that wall down and forced him to confront his emotional alienation, the old, reactive defense mechanisms were activated and he could no longer bring himself to face it.

This incident also contributed to Terence’s growing doubts about his public role as an advocate of psychedelics, and the constellation of funny ideas that he represented in his role as the sage of hyperspace. The trickster mushroom had betrayed him. He could no longer take them, and the prospect of what they might present to him was too terrifying.

Yet there he was, in the public position of being the new Timothy Leary, the explorer-psychonaut who was supposedly plunging down the rabbit hole every weekend. Even now, many of Terence’s fans assume that during this period of his life he was taking high doses of mushrooms and DMT on a regular basis, and they are shocked to learn that that was not the case. Throughout most of the 90’s, Terence used psychedelics only on extremely rare occasions, and when he did take them the doses were modest.

His fans did not know this, but Terence knew it, and he knew that his public representation was disingenuous and, to his credit, it bothered him. Fundamentally, he wanted to be honest, but he could not be, and his fans would not let him be. Or at least that was his perception. His fans identified with him and, as a group, they were largely uncritical. Terence became so good at doing his schtick that it really didn’t matter whether it made sense or not. It sounded great. It was what people wanted to hear, and it paid the bills, and it became the trap from which he could not escape.

On the rare occasions when someone did rise up to question the tenets of the faith, as the mathematician Matthew Watkins did with Terence and the timewave in 1996, rather than stimulate a thoughtful, productive, intellectual exchange that might have refined and extended the concept, it led to public ridicule in the form of vicious, personal attacks on the questioner, as other members of the fan base piled on. The fan base had become a cult, heretics were censured, mocked and shouted down.

In Terence’s defense, I don’t believe he welcomed this kind of response. He did not lead the charge, he let others do it for him. I think that, in his heart of hearts, Terence would have welcomed honest discussion of some of the presumptions of his ideas, except that to do so would require that he step back from them, perhaps go into seclusion for a time while he conducted a careful reevaluation. But for that there was neither time nor resources nor incentive.

In fact, there was every incentive not to do that. After all, he was on the circuit. If the fans wanted to hear the schtick, the last thing they wanted to hear was Terence announce either that he had only been kidding and didn’t really take any of it very seriously and never had, or that he had been overcome by doubts and needed some time to reconsider and take a harder look at the foundations of the theories. Either one of these responses would have been more honest; neither would have been well-tolerated by his fans. The one would have incurred their hostility on the dawning realization they had been duped, and the other would have severely interrupted cash-flows as the concepts were reworked and retooled.

Whatever had driven him in the months and years following La Chorrera to write extended screeds in cramped, microscopic script, and to construct the heavily annotated, hand-drawn graphs of time had long since left; he was no longer in the grip of the Logos. After all, he was on the circuit and there were plenty of adulating fans, many attractive, young women, a circuit of pleasing venues, good money, good food, love and admiration. All in response to what came naturally and effortlessly: the rap, the schtick – what’s not to like, why piss away a good gig?

The problem with this is that he didn’t really believe much anymore, in the schtick or the concepts he purported to represent. He couldn’t or wouldn’t take psychedelics again to get recharged, perhaps to recover thereby some of the belief and passion. As a result, he became disillusioned with himself and with his fans. He could no longer be honest with either himself or his fans, and this led to a further cognitive dissonance. He began to feel even more like a fraud than ever; he became quite depressed. He became trapped in his own public persona like a caged performer on stage, and in response gradually lost respect for his fans."




:jimmies:



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OfflineMrMoo
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Middleman]
    #19094090 - 11/06/13 05:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for posting that up Rev. Morton, I'd read it before but was good to refresh my memory of it again :thumbup:


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: zZZz]
    #19094098 - 11/06/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
yea well courages dosers are no friends of mine :snub: - zZZz


no but he has a good point. why waste your time with low doses and possibly have a short lasting impression when you could dive in head first and possibly never have the urge to trip for several years




true

did 5g a few years back, it scared me so much I havent tried to repeat yet :-P

was pretty sure I was going insane the whole trip lol, 5g mushroom chocolates

3.5-4g seems to be my dose , every 2-4 months or so, when I got shrooms available
cant find them locally anywhere

salvia takes courage too, can only get myself to smoke that with sitter now, 20x
and only every 6-8 months max :-P  , even though Ive done high doses of LSD/mushrooms (10+ hits lsd, 5-7g mushrooms)


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: Moonshoe]
    #19094101 - 11/06/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
I actually am thinking the opposite these days, that the best thing you can do with any drug is start at the lowest possible dose and then gradually climb up by tiny increments with each successive experiment, until you find your sweet spot. Its the safest way to get to know a substance and you can still find your way to heroic doses eventually, but you do it one step at a time, with patience, persistence and care. To me doing tiny doses first and working up to high doses is the obvious, logical thing to do for maximum safety. To rush to a high dose is just impatient really, whats the hurry? You can get there in time, one step at a time.




For me, and idk how this transfers over to other drugs, when I first smoked weed if I'd of started small I don't think I would of had such a good experience that I did the first time. My tolerance would of been enough that by the time I smoked a whole bowl it wouldn't of been as great as it was.


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19094130 - 11/06/13 05:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?




This is exactly why I think he gives pretty dumb shit advice regarding psychedelics.


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: KGB Is Go]
    #19094230 - 11/06/13 07:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think this applies to this time in history. Everyone is different. I take a blotter and feel like it is a lot but I know some people who take 5 at a time and am like :shocked: because of how much one affects me. I used to go to the extreme with disassociatives but don't like doing the same with hallucinogens because once I hit 2.5g or over 1 blotter the experience is meaningless because my thought process is too scrambled. I like observing my thoughts but I don't like my thought process scrambled to the point where I can't even understand what is going on.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


Edited by mindgnome (11/06/13 07:11 AM)


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: mindgnome]
    #19094247 - 11/06/13 07:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
I don't think this applies to this time in history. Everyone is different. I take a blotter and feel like it is a lot but I know some people who take 5 at a time and am like :shocked: because of how much one affects me. I used to go to the extreme with disassociatives but don't like doing the same with hallucinogens because once I hit 2.5g or over 1 blotter the experience is meaningless because my thought process is too scrambled. I like observing my thoughts but I don't like my thought process scrambled to the point where I can't even understand what is going on.




with high doses you dont understand

you let go :-)

let go of thoughts, see where it takes you, dont think

psytrance + high doses is nice, Ive mostly done high doses where ordinary thinking is impossible (always 3+ hits, it also helps letting go of any fear easily)


is pretty good for high doses... because it is slow... but perfect mix

know thyself like they say, easier with high doses, because you will be forced to rebuild and face yourself
but it can happen with many low/medium dose trips too... no need for egodeath for it, which can be unpleasant/life changing
can also be very good... both good and bad, should be essential to any psychonaut


Edited by lessismore (11/06/13 07:42 AM)


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: NotTheDevil]
    #19094253 - 11/06/13 07:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
Quote:

KGB Is Go said:
"...The nibblers of this world are no friends of mine. It should be overwhelming, and it should be an act of courage” - Terence McKenna

I read this Terence quote from a post by Lorenzo. It's taken from Podcast 374 - "Boostrapping Ourselves" over at Matrix Masters.

What do other Shroomerites think of this comment?



Sounds like :dawerp:
like :underage:
like your not good enough unless you take high doses of drugs
like "ugh you did one gram of mushies, I did ten"





I agree wholeheartedly 100% with Terence's opinion on the dabblers. No love for the dabblers. Theyre the posers that can never know thyself.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: lessismore]
    #19094260 - 11/06/13 07:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I do understand though. I have been to that point before...


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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OfflineTheGreenArrow
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: mindgnome]
    #19094442 - 11/06/13 09:03 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think what Terrance was trying to convey,  I mean you've never encountered that guy who wants to be cool and says "oh ya I've tripped" when the most they've ever taken was like 2 g's or 1 hit. Its not really true to say you know about the psychedelic experience completely until you have that moment of surrender.
In my own personal experiences I would tend to agree with him on this one.  I don't think I had a true taste of the psychedelic experience until I dosed enough for my ego to dissolve.  Its just that this basic human experience has been robbed from us by our ridiculous puritan guilt ridden society.  So its not as if most people ever get the chance to fully experience the awe of psyches because they're just illegal so its a pain in the ass.

It's kind of like going to a movie and watching the previews and then leaving after the credits roll in and writing a review of the movie.


--------------------
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a
sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an
equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: "I think the worst thing you can do is diddle with low doses." [Re: TheGreenArrow]
    #19094602 - 11/06/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

true

only egodeath made me find myself, had forgotten myself for 10+ years

the trips leading up to the death healed me a lot each time though, all fear left slowly, started feeling happy everyday again, appreciating what I got, eating healthily, reducing stress etc.
the opposite of before tripping

but I always dosed high, low doses dont really do anything for me, always took 3.5g+ shrooms or 3hits lsd, or above

definitely something that should be tried, the world is new afterwards like first time you saw it, all problems vanish :-)

when it happens you dont want to go there again as to keep your new identity likely, but you dont really decide that it seems lol
then its possible to get there on 2g mushrooms, or 1 hit lsd later on...
soon you learn to live without defining yourself/your world, because it all dissolves on every trip, every preconceived notion :-)

its funny... everytime I hear people say its a shitty rain weather
I can find happiness from observing/walking in the rain lol, after egodeath


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