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Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 2,126
Loc: Figgus, Fiddia
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate
#6620211 - 02/28/07 12:28 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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Okay, I've done some searching, but all I've seen so far is people trying to squeeze an extra flush out of spent cakes by re-casing them, adding dung, et cetera. It seems to me that these people are calling their cakes spent as soon as they go dry, which means they aren't dunking properly or something as best I can figure. Here's the deal:
I've got some good, healthy cakes that have given multiple flushes and have all been dunked three or four times. Now, they would normally be pinning at this point, but under similar humidity and temp they are instead producing lots and lots of fluffy mycelium and, as of yet, no pins.
My theory is that they have adequate moisture to survive at this point, but are out or almost out of nutrients. Naturally this would be a point at which the cake would try to extend itself further, seeking out new nutrients--hence the mycelium. The cakes are not "spent" in that they are hard or dry because they've been very thoroughly dunked. They're spongy and healthy. But I strongly suspect they're low on food.
My plan to keep them going:
* De-contaminate the exterior of one or more of the cakes. This can either be done by cutting away or otherwise removing the exterior of the cakes under sterile conditions (e.g. glove box) or (more practically) by actually sterilizing the surface. I plan to use a 70% isopropyl solution for this task, since short-term exposure to alcohol doesn't seem to hurt the cakes.
* Break the cakes up under sterile conditions (plastic baggie).
* Prepare new, sterile substrate. Though these were PF cakes, rye is probably my best bet for this. I would essentially use these cakes as spawn for a quart or so of freshly sterilized rye. I might experiment with colonization of BRF/Verm as per the PF tek, too, simply because it seems to be a very sturdy and reliable substrate.
Since the cakes are still showing mycelial expansion, this should be a great way to take live, healthy, and voluminous mycelial tissue and give it new substrate for colonization. This will be much faster than making new cakes or spawning on rye from spores or tissue cultures because of the sheer amount of active tissue that is introduced.
What do you think? Is this an old idea? A bad one? Like I said, I did some searching, but most people were just talking about recasing their "spent" cakes, which can only serve to give them moisture. If you aren't dunking your cakes, they aren't spent when you think they are. It's the easiest thing in the world--I don't even sterilize the tap water, and I have yet to see a single contaminated cake from the whole batch.
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
Edited by figgusfiddus (02/28/07 12:29 PM)
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agar
old hand
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: figgusfiddus]
#6620224 - 02/28/07 12:31 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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Spent = used toilet paper
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: agar]
#6620239 - 02/28/07 12:35 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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This has been asked and answered at least twenty times in the last year. Spent cakes are. . .spent. Spawn new substrate with fresh spawn. Bury spent cakes in a shady spot outdoors, and sometimes you'll see a flush or two when weather conditions are right, but to spawn fresh substrate indoors with a contaminant spore covered spent substrate isn't going to produce good results consistently. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 2,126
Loc: Figgus, Fiddia
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6620374 - 02/28/07 01:15 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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That's hard to believe, though. They're healthy, or else they wouldn't be trying to spread. I respect your opinions, though, and I'm sure they've been backed up by practical trials, but I'm going to have to be a retard and give it a shot! After all, it's only spent because it's out of food--give it some more, and you can keep a chain going indefinitely.
Plus, the only contaminated part of the cake is the exterior. Sterilize that, and it seems to me you've got a good sample.
I'll keep the forums updated on my success (or probable failure), at any rate, for posterity. Sorry to post on a dead-horse topic, though, I swear I couldn't find anyone talking about sterilizing cakes and using them to colonize.
-------------------- FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS FGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDSFGSFDS
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etam
it's a hobby...
Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 1,126
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: figgusfiddus]
#6620397 - 02/28/07 01:21 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
figgusfiddus said: That's hard to believe, though. They're healthy, or else they wouldn't be trying to spread. I respect your opinions, though, and I'm sure they've been backed up by practical trials, but I'm going to have to be a retard and give it a shot! After all, it's only spent because it's out of food--give it some more, and you can keep a chain going indefinitely.
Plus, the only contaminated part of the cake is the exterior. Sterilize that, and it seems to me you've got a good sample.
I'll keep the forums updated on my success (or probable failure), at any rate, for posterity. Sorry to post on a dead-horse topic, though, I swear I couldn't find anyone talking about sterilizing cakes and using them to colonize.
Your cake is no longer in colonization mode. It is and has been in fruiting mode for a long time. I really doubt it's going to colonize anything. But hell, good luck.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 29 days
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: figgusfiddus]
#6620400 - 02/28/07 01:22 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
figgusfiddus said: After all, it's only spent because it's out of food--give it some more, and you can keep a chain going indefinitely.
Very common new grower mistake. Mycelium is not spent because it ran out of food. It is spent because it's old and tired. Add more food and you feed the fresh contaminat spores that are on it.
Quote:
Plus, the only contaminated part of the cake is the exterior. Sterilize that, and it seems to me you've got a good sample.
Sterilization requires boiling or pressure cooking, which would kill the mycelium. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: figgusfiddus]
#6620683 - 02/28/07 02:32 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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spent
–verb
1. used up; consumed. 2. tired; worn-out; exhausted.
—Synonyms 3. weary, drained, fagged.
spent is when the substrate has consumed all the nutrients during the grow and can't fruit anymore.
you can't expect spent substrate to do anything.
you might be able to start an outside grow with spent substrate... where contamination isn't as big of a problem as it is with an indoor grow. you would spawn the spent substrate into some kind of bulk substrate(horse manure for example)... and hope for the best!~
tc
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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Spire
Mycophagous
Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 314
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: Roadkill]
#6621384 - 02/28/07 05:45 PM (17 years, 23 days ago) |
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I wouldn't go on the record by saying using spent substrate is the best way to go or the safest, but it can and has technically worked, however like many have said, it opens one up to contaminants, and is generally better to be discarded or used for an outdoor bed. From there make new spawn. Mycellium does get weak, and it was noticed even after introduced to fresh spawn. It could only flush decently once, followed by very weak latter flushes.
Spent WBS.
Prepared Hpoo/Verm mix thrown into a Myco Bag.
Once colonized, it is cased.
Which created this First Flush.
And then a few not worth mentioning latter flushes.
This was only a past experiment to see if it could be done and produce something worth mentioning. IMO i'd rather just start with fresh spawn and go from there.
-------------------- Old Member, New Name. One makes "good luck". With the ability to recognize a good opportunity. Then, to exploit it. -SixTango/Agar
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Sulli
Stranger
Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 430
Last seen: 8 years, 15 days
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: Spire]
#6622392 - 02/28/07 10:08 PM (17 years, 22 days ago) |
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in your shroom pics... what does it mean when the caps and stems blacken like that? are they ok or idk, tell me.
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Tobolam
Cow fieldlawnmower
Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 63
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: Sulli]
#6622409 - 02/28/07 10:11 PM (17 years, 22 days ago) |
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Blackening is caused by dark spores settling on top of mushrooms from being either dropped down from higher ones or magically floating by air currents
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CureCat
Strangest
Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: Sulli]
#6623032 - 03/01/07 02:31 AM (17 years, 22 days ago) |
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Yeah, those are purple spores from the mushrooms. If you don't want such a mess, you must harvest them before they drop their spores.
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figgusfiddus
Arrogant Worm
Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 2,126
Loc: Figgus, Fiddia
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: CureCat]
#6627957 - 03/02/07 12:43 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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I think my stupid rebelliousness has been appeased by the fact that someone said it is technically possible, and since my fresh cakes are almost ready for birth, well, maybe I'll back down from my little challenge.
However, one purely technical question on the "tired" quality described in the above mycelium:
How is the use of mycelium from the cake to spawn new grain technically different from the use of tissue from the stem of the fruiting body? Why isn't that tissue "tired" too? I know the strain can get weak with time, hence people turning back to their prints after several rounds with the same tissue clone, but I am afraid I'm struggling with the notion of the mycelium itself getting spent and tired, since when you add it to new grain you're actually growing new mycelium.
In response to what someone said about sterilizing a cake without killing it, I have already said--the outside of the cake should be your only heavy contaminant source. Cut the outside off (like you would the outside of a dry cheese block) or sterilize it with alcohol to eliminate a reasonably large number of surface contaminants. You could maybe even use flame or branding heat if you want, since branding the outside doesn't hurt the healthy inside. I'm not saying it's perfect, but nothing is. Gotta think out of the box and accept a few failures, guys, it's more fun that way!
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: figgusfiddus]
#6628102 - 03/02/07 01:42 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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I love thinking outside of the box...
if you want to get 1 or 2 flushes out of your cakes before spawning the cakes to a bulk substrate... that usually works out ok in most cases.
but you saw the definition of the word spent up above in my other post.
as the cake goes through several flushes the nutrients are being used up... so after 3 or 4 flushes the cake isn't going to have much left. It's still not spent at this point. but the chances of contamination goes up with each flush you put the cake through.
I'd consider cutting the outside surfaces of the cake off with a sterile knife... on anything over the 2nd flush stage. then using a cheese grater on the inside part of the cake to make your spawn for the bulk substrate.
as far as the person that posted that he spawned spent grain to start new substrate and it worked... I looked at the picture and I don't see spent grain. He might have already used it...but it wasn't spent. I know what spent grain looks like.
tc
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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Spire
Mycophagous
Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 314
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: Roadkill]
#6628677 - 03/02/07 04:32 PM (17 years, 21 days ago) |
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While I normally agree with you Roadkill, the grain that was used was put under some pretty regular conditions rather than just allowed to fruit a little bit and go on to the transfer...
<This featured casing is straight WBS with a small amount of verm. in its mix. in the initial substrate mixture itself.>
Going through a 1st flush which was not worth mentioning:
To only be dunked for 12 hours, patched, filling in the sides from where it contracted in with casing material it was allowed to have a 2nd Flush:
And the after that it was dunked for 12 hours again, with the same procedure as the last time, and fruited for it's 3rd Flush:
And then after that it was dunked for another 12 hours with the same procedures as last time and allowed to have a 4th Flush:
Which generated some tasty looking fruits btw:
At that point I felt any more flushes might increase contamination so I decided to just halt it for a period of time, somewhere around a week. Came back to nothing much but some aborts and such.
After that a few scoops from a spoon (And making sure to take from the center of casing) and a ziplock was all that was needed. In a very crude session of transfering the grain to the spawnbag it was complete.
I considered that grain somewhat spent after 4 flushes and a good 2 monthes of generating a lot of energy from the 1 casing, to only have to recolonize an amount of Hpoo.
EDIT: Im still not giving the go to do this, im just explaining the conditions that the spent seed went through.
Edited by Spire (03/02/07 04:34 PM)
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Apothos
Explorer
Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 4
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: figgusfiddus]
#19087583 - 11/04/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know this post is old but I just did this and it worked.
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silverstem
Caps & Stems
Registered: 10/12/13
Posts: 900
Loc: jordan
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: Apothos]
#19087610 - 11/04/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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lol u just bumped a 6 year old thread to tell us it worked...... of course it could work. why do u think people ditch their spent cakes outside... its just not smart to do because spent cakes have mold spores on them. i choose to maintain a slim possibility of contamination in my work space. as a cultivator you should to.
-------------------- Shroomery needs a gun forum!!!!!!!!! CAN WE HAVE ONE?????
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Apothos
Explorer
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: silverstem]
#19090862 - 11/05/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry silverstems. As you can see I am new. I did a lot of research on this site before I joined and I got to tell you that I am glad to be a part of it now. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge here and thanks to people like you guys like me can enjoy this art form. I think it's an art form anyway. I do not know all the unwritten does and donts yet but I will learn quickly. I usually did just as you said and others. I just burried them outside and hoped. I just got bored and lucky. I did separate the experiment from my trusty go to stuff lol. I was actually surprised at the result. I am just small time enjoying myself at this. I can't wait to see what my new OIs bring me. Good vibes and thanks.
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heresy
Thinker...
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Loc: Earth
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#24839619 - 12/11/17 01:38 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is untrue...unless I’m the only person in all of earth that has special powers it is VERY true....I take old cakes ,in glove box remove outside to expose inner mycelium, crumble in a bag of brf mix and wait....occasionally I need to reopen bag to remove small contams. I trust your experience...I have been using your advice for years.....but I do this all the time with old spent cakes...they are spent until they colonize another substrate..it seems to colonize very fast and fruit quickly..organisms are organisms...you just need to maintain you circle of sterility....
-------------------- I'm not real big on this whole "typing thing"......
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Icezizim
Registered: 11/09/09
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Loc: Oklahoma
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Re: Using "spent" cakes to colonize new substrate [Re: heresy] 1
#24839672 - 12/11/17 01:59 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Old thread
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