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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Why non-materialists are cuckoo
    #19085518 - 11/04/13 01:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They frequently chide materialists for being stuck in the five senses, but here is the dealio:

If the non-materialist can actually detect another realm then it is obviously interacting with this one - hence it is material.

However the non-materialist generally 'interacts' with the alleged non-material realm through emotion, feeling, the third eye, imagination, and/or intuition. None of these 'methods' have any known reliability nor do non-materialists describe the non-material realm in any way as to paint a consensual picture; nor has any verifiable real world knowledge ever been gained by such methods.



Case closed!


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19085563 - 11/04/13 02:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

the only thing i know is that being overly materialistic is what is causing many wars and destructive events


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: i like cow poo]
    #19085590 - 11/04/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Nice way to confuse consumerism with philosophical materialism.

I will go back to making joke threads as it is almost impossible to have a real discussion.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19085594 - 11/04/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Your nose has bulbed.  Cut back on the booze.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icelander]
    #19085613 - 11/04/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I will go back to making joke threads as it is almost impossible to have a real discussion.


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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19085653 - 11/04/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

my point still stands:kingcrankey:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19085663 - 11/04/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I will go back to making joke threads as it is almost impossible to have a real discussion.





I never noticed you had stopped. :whacker:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #19085674 - 11/04/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I will go back to making joke threads as it is almost impossible to have a real discussion.




Well there you go, you're having a discussion that lacks substance. The proof was here all along.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19085680 - 11/04/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:smuglook:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: i like cow poo] * 1
    #19085686 - 11/04/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

i like cow poo said:
my point still stands:kingcrankey:







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Offlinei like cow poo
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19085986 - 11/04/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

hand over teh marihuanas and no1 gets hurt


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: i like cow poo]
    #19086200 - 11/04/13 04:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



"We get hurt when you pick us!"


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19088184 - 11/05/13 12:22 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:


"We get hurt when you pick us!"




You lined them up
You tied them down
You cut them
You burned them
You you you
Why is it
Always about
You


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19088249 - 11/05/13 12:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
They frequently chide materialists for being stuck in the five senses, but here is the dealio:

If the non-materialist can actually detect another realm then it is obviously interacting with this one - hence it is material.

However the non-materialist generally 'interacts' with the alleged non-material realm through emotion, feeling, the third eye, imagination, and/or intuition. None of these 'methods' have any known reliability nor do non-materialists describe the non-material realm in any way as to paint a consensual picture; nor has any verifiable real world knowledge ever been gained by such methods.



Case closed!




I don't think just because something can interact with you, it is necessarily interacting with the world in an objective and measurable manner through independent and verifiable source. Otherwise there would be no such thing as subjectivity, because everything could be determined objectively, yet not everything has been determined objectively . . . .

I mean just think about all the things that we can't detect with 5 of our senses that has been said to exist through inductive reasoning or other instrumentation. Would it be correct to say that those things didn't exist until evidence was provided of the existence or what it existing all along but immeasurable?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: teknix]
    #19088281 - 11/05/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You Kant measure something without changing it.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineUncommonSense
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #19094762 - 11/06/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I disagree. Material science will not even acknowledge what cannot be physically measured, but I contest that it does not mean that it is not there. What about the great Francis Crick? Could one contend that his altered state of consciousness have led him to realize, or receive an information download as some may say, of the double helix?

I'm just not convinced.


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096118 - 11/06/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there can be a logical, or at least scientifically logical argument against materialism. I'd love to see one, but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena because such things cannot be measured (if they even exist at all).


--------------------
Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #19096223 - 11/06/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena

What about schizophrenics? If they see a smiley right next to this instead of the question mark:?

If a group is able to demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument the rest don't see, have they proven it or not?


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19096454 - 11/06/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think there can be a logical, or at least scientifically logical argument against materialism. I'd love to see one, but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena because such things cannot be measured (if they even exist at all).




This isn't true at all. There are many logical arguments against materialism, Idealism vs materialism is an age old debate. Counter to common belief materialism isn't an obvious fact.

In fact you have it backwards. Idealism cannot be denied whereas materialism cannot be proven. Maybe shocking but  it is true.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19096582 - 11/06/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Please don't address me, click "quick reply" on jimiandtheshroom27's post and then write your post or simply quote him.

In regards to your post:

materialism cannot be proven.

How is this not a smiley: :smile:?


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19096773 - 11/06/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry. figure its pretty obvious who I am responding too when I quote them. Does it notify you or something when you get a response?

As for my point it still stands and it is indeed a fact. If you disagree don't smile but instead debunk me.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19096809 - 11/06/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There is nothing to debunk as you have not posited a single argument.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/06/13 06:19 PM)


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096840 - 11/06/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
-nor has any verifiable real world knowledge ever been gained by such methods.





Evidence for this claim?


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19096857 - 11/06/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It would only take one valid data point to refute my position.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096964 - 11/06/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

here is nothing to debunk as you have not posited a single argument.




He said that non-material things cannot be proven. I countered by stating that the opposite is true and in actual fact it is non-material things that cannot be proven and cannot be directly none.

Tell me, how is it that matter can be known and proven?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19096966 - 11/06/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not trying to refute your claim, nor do I care to. Nor do I even necessarily disagree with the general point you are making in your opening post.
I'm asking you to substantiate what I quoted you saying, I'm curious as to where you got this idea and information and if its solid.

Onus Probandi :thumbup:


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #19096976 - 11/06/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No one be probing my onus! :nonono:


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19097019 - 11/06/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

A little too late for that.



--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19097032 - 11/06/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Sorry. figure its pretty obvious who I am responding too when I quote them. Does it notify you or something when you get a response?

As for my point it still stands and it is indeed a fact. If you disagree don't smile but instead debunk me.




I asked you a question in regards to your statement, where's your reply?

Let's try again:

YOU WROTE THE FOLLOWING:

materialism cannot be proven.

I REPLIED WITH THE FOLLOWING:

How is this not a smiley: :smile:?

The following quote was merely directed towards the one you were addressing, which was me.

Quote:

Please don't address me, click "quick reply" on jimiandtheshroom27's post and then write your post or simply quote him.



I would suggest paying attention. If you need further assistance, please let me know with what.

Did you address the wrong person?


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As far as I assume to know...


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19097036 - 11/06/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

I don't think there can be a logical, or at least scientifically logical argument against materialism. I'd love to see one, but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena because such things cannot be measured (if they even exist at all).




This isn't true at all. There are many logical arguments against materialism, Idealism vs materialism is an age old debate. Counter to common belief materialism isn't an obvious fact.

In fact you have it backwards. Idealism cannot be denied whereas materialism cannot be proven. Maybe shocking but  it is true.




How can materialism not be proven?
Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: cez]
    #19097157 - 11/06/13 07:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.




This is only true as long as you already assume materialism to be true. What I want to make clear is that you cannot assume the world to be material. Your statement is equivalent to the statement,

materialism is true because the world is material.

How do you know what you experience and call "matter" is the cause of your experience? Matter is not what you experience with your mind, it is a representation of it. It is understood even from the materialist perspective that the world you experience is not matter itself. Matter is simply the THEORY which explains your experience. It cannot be known because every experience you have is merely a representation of matter.

George Berkley made this very clever case in point,

It is impossible to explain and describe matter without somehow making reference to your experience of matter. When you refer to matter you are really talking about your experiences/perceptions of matter, of what Berkley called ideas.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19097374 - 11/06/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

good post soldatheero - a very simple and obvious analogy to show how materialism cannot be proven from our current level of experience is to compare what we experience now to the experience of a dream at night. in the dream, the dream-universe seems real, solid, external, etc... but in hindsight we say it's just a play of the mind with no external reality to it.

materialists would say the entire dream was just chemical reactions in the brain - only then the problem of observing the apparently physical brain could likewise be a dream. so we cannot escape the consistent possibility that everything is an experience without a material support - idealism. so like you say, idealism cannot be proven false and materialism cannot be proven true :smile: (at least from our current situation of perception / existence)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: deff]
    #19097411 - 11/06/13 08:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

This is as lame as solipsism arguments. They are useless and lead nowhere thus making my point.

In the meantime y'all are using computers based on concepts of materialism.


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19097424 - 11/06/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

well solipsism can't be proven false :laugh: !


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19098097 - 11/06/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.




This is only true as long as you already assume materialism to be true. What I want to make clear is that you cannot assume the world to be material. Your statement is equivalent to the statement,

materialism is true because the world is material.

How do you know what you experience and call "matter" is the cause of your experience? Matter is not what you experience with your mind, it is a representation of it. It is understood even from the materialist perspective that the world you experience is not matter itself. Matter is simply the THEORY which explains your experience. It cannot be known because every experience you have is merely a representation of matter.

George Berkley made this very clever case in point,

It is impossible to explain and describe matter without somehow making reference to your experience of matter. When you refer to matter you are really talking about your experiences/perceptions of matter, of what Berkley called ideas.





Interesting. :strokebeard:


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19098586 - 11/07/13 12:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Arguments against materialism hold because they deal in absolutes in the same way materialism does. For example Descartes's argument from doubt. Either mind and body are identical or not etc. etc. But none of these arguments hold in the context of physicalism because it doesn't argue that mind and body are identical. They don't need to be, the body simply provides for the mind. The best argument against physicalism is Chomsky's criticism and he simply reduces it to either identical to the naturalist project and therefore misleading, or not identical and therefore illegitimate. But Chomsky entirely overlooks concern. The physicalist project would be identical to the naturalist one if it weren't for the fact that it is not the details of the project that physicalists are concerned with (that would make them identical to the working scientist), but rather the potential limits of the project are. The argument for idealism being that the only interaction we could have with the physical world is through perceptions which are all in the mind so we have no reason to believe that everything is but an idea. But following from causality, something must provide for an idea. Simply saying that everything is an idea is inconclusive.


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: soldatheero]
    #19098651 - 11/07/13 01:15 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The point I am trying to make is not that causality implies physicalism, but rather that idealism is equally impossible to prove. Just because you cannot disprove something doesn't make it a truth, it simply makes it possible. For it to be a truth, it must be proven.


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OfflineApo Epicurus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: deff]
    #19100982 - 11/07/13 02:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Ludwig Wittgenstein: Private Language.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 3
    #19101953 - 11/07/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This is as lame as solipsism arguments. They are useless and lead nowhere thus making my point.

.




Sorry but saying my argument is "lame" is not a counter-argument and simply claiming they "lead nowhere" with no backing means absolutely nothing except perhaps that you are ignorant as to where my arguments do lead.

Idealism is not solipsism. Claiming that matter is an illusion does not automatically imply that my mind is the only mind in existence nor does it imply that the world we experience is not an objective world.

Quote:

In the meantime y'all are using computers based on concepts of materialism




No we are using computers based on the laws of the objective reality. Sorry but scientific and mathamatical laws are not synonymous with materialism. Again, it is not an argument to claim, the world is material because the world is material. You commit the same fallacy I had pointed out earlier.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: cez]
    #19103638 - 11/08/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

I don't think there can be a logical, or at least scientifically logical argument against materialism. I'd love to see one, but ultimately you cannot prove non materialistic phenomena because such things cannot be measured (if they even exist at all).




This isn't true at all. There are many logical arguments against materialism, Idealism vs materialism is an age old debate. Counter to common belief materialism isn't an obvious fact.

In fact you have it backwards. Idealism cannot be denied whereas materialism cannot be proven. Maybe shocking but  it is true.




How can materialism not be proven?
Any idea is based on the material world and is manufactured by a material brain.



That is all contained within consciousness.


--------------------
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Light up the darkness.


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: hTx]
    #19103653 - 11/08/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

IMO, its both.

Its pretty silly to just undermine consciousness completely when every single thing that is material is also consciousness, since these words must pass through your very eyes, your very consciousness to be understood/interpreted.

Don't mean to be cliche, but quantum physics proves that the mere act of observation effects reality..

and calling non-materialists cuckoo..isn't that like racist or something? :smirk:

just kidding.

Not really, but seriously. You cannot prove it either way, which is why their are two major schools of philosophical thought, materialism and idealism.

In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

Which in my opinion, is the obviously correct one..since reality is indeed a mental construct, to think so otherwise would be to claim that you are somehow not using consciousness to interpret the world around you.


Probably unrelated, but I thought this article was pretty interesting..:grin:

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/16/decapitated-worms-regrow-heads-keep-old-memories/


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Edited by hTx (11/08/13 01:00 AM)


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19104585 - 11/08/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I really made a blunder there. I confused logic with science due to tiredness. I meant that i to my knowledge the scientific method and ideas of non materialism do not go well together. But that could be wrong too. I'm out of my depth here and i apologise for posting. The responses after  have helped me understand both sides of the argument a lot better.


--------------------
Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #19104923 - 11/08/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't call it a blunder - you seem to be on the realistic side of the fence IMO.

Sincerity is what stands in the way of fully debunking non-materialism. It should not exist objectively.

The problem is when one group demonstrate the truth or existence of non-materialism by evidence or argument which the rest can't perceive. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on the group of people claiming existence of non-materialism, some may say God is real but how do you prove 'Him'?


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19105119 - 11/08/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ultimately, the burden of proof is on the group of people claiming existence of non-materialism




wouldn't the burden of proof be on both those who assert materialism and those who assert non-materialism? both are claims and both would require evidence to back up the claim. materialism is taken as a sort of 'obvious truth' to most people, but there's good arguments for both sides.


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: deff]
    #19105233 - 11/08/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't the following smiley proof of materialism: :cool:? How about non-materialism - can it objectively be proven? Show me one single substantial proof of non-materialism and I am convinced. I can show you billions of materialistic evidence in return, sounds like a fair deal IMO.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19105322 - 11/08/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I don't see a real duality between materialism and non-materialism. Science has been pushing back non-material ideas for a long time and the eventual result would seem to be the eradication of non-materialism. However, in the process things have been getting a bit fuzzy. Matter is entwined energy and the existence of matter cannot account for the complexity of momentum. This doesn't mean there is a soul, or life after death, or other whimsical ideas of non-material reality, but it does mean it may prove difficult or even impossible for science to describe consciousness and all of it's indicators in a way that unifies the intangibles with material law.

Experience, perception, feelings are non-material arising from a material process.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105348 - 11/08/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What do you mean with non-materialism ? The things that happen in ones mind ? Idealism ? Ideas ?
Why shouldn't they be real or become real or had been real before we had them ?
Maybe they even can be there in the constellations of the physical world without some mind to perceive or imagine them.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19105453 - 11/08/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't say they weren't real, just that the material involved doesn't seem to be the experience itself.

There seems to be a disconnect between 'an experience' and 'structured nerve signals'. I guess it's more a metaphysical postulation rather than a non-material postulation.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105546 - 11/08/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Explaining what I among others refer to as true reality to a *materealist* would be like explaining music to someone deaf... (no offense at all)

You say a plane ourside the three dimensions also must be material... ?
What I concieve of as the true reality is nothing but energy, infinite energy making up everything...

When someone uses their "left brain-hemosphere" they can expereance matereality, but there takes a "right brain-hemosphere" to understand things like art, music, feelings and especially infinity and eternity.

OC; do you understand the concept of infinity?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105628 - 11/08/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Energy is an aspect of material reality, but music appreciation could be non-material.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105637 - 11/08/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, because energy is a material...
(Or has any form of solidity if you may...)


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105690 - 11/08/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

E=Mc2

Lightning doesn't de facto constitute a non-material phenomena, nor does brain activity. Materialism stipulates that emergent phenomena are the result of the interaction of material substances (in whatever form). In contrast non-materialism postulates that material substance (mass or energy) is the result of non-material phenomena like ideas.

Someone could prove ghosts exist and it could still fall under the constraints of (yet to be discovered) material phenomena.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105702 - 11/08/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Feelings and fucus is (a type) energy... vibes-viberations transmitted and recieved.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105710 - 11/08/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Energy is an aspect of material reality, but music appreciation could be non-material.



So it's not possible visually observing sound waves with a good enough microscope?


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As far as I assume to know...


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: liquidlounge]
    #19105763 - 11/08/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Materialism and non-materealism are still humanmade descriptions of reality...

Feelings and focus is energy, and all is energy. Thus in the end; all is feelings and focus.
--->you can feel electricity too... which is electric energy...a feeling.

He said "music appreciation" btw... a feeling.

Music if art, is feelings, energy, in the form of sound... which is how most people percieve this energy, vibe, feeling.


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Edited by Icyus (11/08/13 01:51 PM)


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105913 - 11/08/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He said "music appreciation" btw... a feeling.

Feelings stem from the brain and are thus material.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19105920 - 11/08/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Materialism and non-materealism are still humanmade descriptions of reality...

Feelings and focus is energy, and all is energy. Thus in the end; all is feelings and focus.




Non-materialism doesn't question whether energy is material. The postulation is that consciousness and ideas exists independent of energy and form. You suggest that feelings are material and I suspect you're right but it still seems inexplicable and science has so far been unable to decipher consciousness which is what all feelings depend on to be felt.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19105937 - 11/08/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That is because todays scientists have been selected by acedemia as they were good remembering and reciting. That is a lefthemosphere task, and thus most scientists in the acedemia atleast lack an understanding of the creative and emotional.

I do kot suggest feelings are material, but both feelings and energy immaterial... at the same time material.

Materealism and non-materealism are still humanmade decriptions of reality, thus flawed, and offcource relative. BuT; reality is still created by the observer, and thus we have a brain because we have a consciousness...........


Edited by Icyus (11/08/13 02:27 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Icyus]
    #19106005 - 11/08/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Materialism seems to be more closely related to 'working understandings' whereas non-materialism is based on 'mystic understandings' in which case there would be no basis for scientific discovery. It could be easy to assume that one day science will discover the mechanisms which give rise to consciousness but there's not a lot of clues so far.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Rahz]
    #19230750 - 12/05/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

So OP, how do you explain Quantum physics? How does materialism explain particles that inexplicably pop into and out of existence? Spacetime isn't material, but it's there.


Edited by Thecrimson (12/05/13 11:08 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19230859 - 12/05/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So OP, how do you explain Quantum physics?




You want me to explain the most complex subject in human history, that people study for a decade or more, into a one-liner?


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19230871 - 12/05/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Did you not read the rest of my post?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19231049 - 12/05/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes.

See how simple it is to answer a yes or no question?


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19231111 - 12/05/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Yes.

See how simple it is to answer a yes or no question?




And so you see particles popping in and our of existence as a measurable material event? Spacetime exists but good luck grabbing a handful of it. Materialism is a very shallow scope of reality.

Watch some of this, not claiming it as fact or proof, but it raises points


Edited by Thecrimson (03/13/14 06:52 PM)


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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19233728 - 12/05/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

OrgoneConclusion:  I'd like to gain some clarity on your argument and whether it is valid (i.e. whether your conclusion actually follows your premises)

1) How do you define material?

2) You claim: "If the non-materialist can actually detect another realm then it is obviously interacting with this one - hence it is material."

I claim: "If the materialist can actually detect another [material] realm, then it is obviously interacting with this [immaterial] one - hence it is immaterial."

Do our claims differ?  Is one any better supported than the other?


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Offlinepokitman
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Re: Why non-materialists are cuckoo [Re: hmmn]
    #19235124 - 12/06/13 04:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hear me out, I have suffered extreme concussions throughout my life, mainly on the left side of my brain (the male side) which is co dependent on the right side of my brain to not understand each other but create two different ways to look at things, one to process information, and the female side, (right) to focus on creativity and spontaneous decision making. Well through my brain injuries on the left side of my brain, I have started seeing things that were unexplainable to the human eye, the world wasn't atoms any more. There was no materials, instead everything became sounds, sounds which became feelings. feelings which became the setting for life, and life without feelings is not life, our instincts wouldn't be able to work, our body's wouldn't understand what's happening, words, and materials are only existent because we have let them become existent, and if we didn't have words to explain that objects could be "labeled" and described, what would we actually see the world as?


--------------------
Close your eyes, see the little colored dots? now open your eyes,
and life just became a void, you have shifted into a new reality, by reading this. Life has become nothing, nothing more then what you believe reality and your senses make it. And what you have always believed reality to be, is nothing more than what reality was, but not anymore. Because reality doesn't exist anymore. Your welcome.


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