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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
TryinToTrip said: From which dictionary are you finding your definition of spiritual?
Under Merriam-webster: 1 - of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit 2a - of or relating to sacred matters b - ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal 3 - concerned with religious values 4 - related or joined in spirit 5a - of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b - of, relating to, or involving spiritualism
The theoretical person's beliefs are completely spiritual, fitting definitions 1-4, especially number 1. The spirit's first definition by Merriam-Webster is an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms. This completely supports the example belief I gave as one that is spiritual and has direct correspondence with physical reality as verified by science.
A dictionary cannot express the ineffable pertaining to a realm to which it doesn't belong. Q.E.D.
At best it renders something so vague it's meaningless, bound by it's own constructs, which although practical for it's application, has no external relevance. The same is true of science.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (12/14/13 03:33 AM)
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HalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
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Nothing which is ineffable can be expressed linguistically. That is its very definition. What would it matter the realm it belonged to? Anything ineffable can't be communicated by language, thus definition and the dictionary are null. I have however provided the definition of spiritual, and can for physical if you'd like, so these things are obviously not ineffable.
Do you perhaps mean that a dictionary cannot be applied to the physical realm? It can and it does apply to the physical realm, which is why the words you say can be interpreted and comprehended by other English speakers. These would be sound vibrations traveling from your throat, through the air, meeting tiny bones in another person's ear, converted to electrical impulses and sent to along the auditory nerve to your brain. This is a series of physical events which have no purpose without defining them, lest you find great value in the park of a dog or a baby's gibberish.
Or did you mean it can't be applied to the spiritual realm? This is a bible dictionary http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/ It defines words which relate to the primary religious text of Christianity. It is spiritual because 2a - it is of or relating to sacred matters, and 3 - is concerned with religious values. This dictionary has just been expressed using another dictionary's definition to describe it.
So is there a reason that you are arguing statements for which you have provided no evidence?
-------------------- dead man walking
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Wordpicking will not help us here. It's obvious, at least for me, that spiritually worshipping the sun and scientifically knowing about its life-giving properties are two sides of the same coin.
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HalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
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Your edit doesn't make sense either.
How can a dictionary render something so vague that it's meaningless? It provides the full meaning (ie definition) of involved words. This is giving meaning, and we apply this meaning and further it by using words to communicate.
The universe in itself is bound by its own constructs, however this doesn't render it meaningless. If anything it builds upon its own legitimacy by continuing to follow the physics and chemistry which it created for itself and is bound/defined by.
No external relevance? A dictionary's application is what gives it external relevance. Previous to that it is simply a book or an electronic reading with words and their meaning. The definitions within it are provided by experts in the English language (in the situation of it being an English dictionary) and used by nonexperts to better comprehend English, these are external to English expertise.
Perhaps your inferred use of external was referring to outside of use in the mind. I could use paper within the dictionary to light a fire and stay warm, or if it was electronic I could shut it off, conserving energy. I could hit someone who is annoying me with the dictionary. I could use its pages as toilet paper. These are actions involving a dictionary which have use other than mentally, and other than the original intent of its creators.
-------------------- dead man walking
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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No definition listed pertains to spirit adhering to the laws of the physical as an exclusive entity regardless if it's part of a necessary compound of life.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (12/14/13 08:07 AM)
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HalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
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 The first definition of spirit from Merriam-Webster which I gave earlier: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms. So spirit by definition would adhere to the laws of the physical, seeing as no physical organisms avoid the laws of physics. How is whether or not it's an "exclusive entity" in any form relevant?
-------------------- dead man walking
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Quote:
TryinToTrip said: Well that's not true. What if someone worships the sun because it provides them and everything around them with life? They do physically worship the sun, and the sun's light and heat provide the energy which all living things on Earth feed off of. Science verifies the physical reality, and the theoretical person's spirituality coincides with it.
I approve of Sun worship.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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HalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
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I don't practice it or know anyone who does, but it seems more legitimate than worship of deities in most organized religions to me
-------------------- dead man walking
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I practice it. I have a lounge chair alter with a thick cushion and I stretch out on that sucker with some good tunes on sunny days and commune with the glory.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
TryinToTrip said: So spirit by definition would adhere to the laws of the physical, seeing as no physical organisms avoid the laws of physics.
Spirit is not a physical organism.
It's an underlying, dormant essence that operates outside of the parameters of physical science, hence why debate or study of its existence is futile.
Thus, there's nothing to even suggest that we do carry a spirit inside of us. It might simply be a part of us that rides in tandem with our selves on another channel to which our minds are melded.
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all this beauty
Stranger
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: Thus, there's nothing to even suggest that we do carry a spirit inside of us. It might simply be a part of us that rides in tandem with our selves on another channel to which our minds are melded.
The idea of the paranormal and the supernatural is ridiculous precisely because it assumes an "other" that is not merely a projection of our longings and desires.
In my opinion, of course.
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HalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
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I'm not saying a spirit is a physical organism. Have you truly avoided reading the definition I provided this many times? Spirit: An animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms It isn't a physical life form, nor have I argued it to be so. I am saying it is a source which provides life to living beings.
From what expert do you cite this definition?
Quote:
It's an underlying, dormant essence that operates outside of the parameters of physical science, hence why debate or study of its existence is futile.
It completely contradicts mine, and a google search quoting it rendered a lack of results, verifiable or not.
I consider my brain to be my spirit. The brain is personally spiritual to me in that electric signals between neurons and chemical reception within it create what I experience as joy, dismay, love, hatred, fear, etc It also fits the official definition of spirit by being both an animating and vital principle held to give me life as a physical organism. Like you and I both said, it isn't a physical organism, but is a physical organ  The brain does physically exist, and recent technology has allowed its measurement in a scientific form.
Once again, your claims don't add up.
Ahh and now I see that you've edited yet another of your posts As you have read above, my spirit is veritably carried inside of me.
-------------------- dead man walking
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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If you asusme spirit to be the brain then you reject the concept of spirit.
Need for "experts" for purposes of citation and assurance can perhaps show lack of experience though I respect that you have proposed your opinion which I take at face value.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (12/14/13 12:53 PM)
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HalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: If you asusme spirit to be the brain then you reject the concept of spirit.
Have refuted this various times 
Quote:
Need for "experts" for purposes of citation and assurance can perhaps show lack of experience though I respect that you have proposed your opinion which I take at face value.
So you honestly believe that when I have cited my definitions and they verify my opinion, that I show lack of expertise compared to you?
-------------------- dead man walking
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Your opinion that spirit does not exist or that spirit pertains to physical has not been verified.
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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And your opinion hasn't been verified either. That's what happens when you try and discuss something that has no impact on the objective world.
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



Registered: 10/08/12
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Quote:
White Beard said: And your opinion hasn't been verified either. That's what happens when you try and discuss something that has no impact on the objective world.
Indeed....and my take on it was this:
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: It's an underlying, dormant essence that operates outside of the parameters of physical science, hence why debate or study of its existence is futile.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Quote:
TryinToTrip said: I'm not saying a spirit is a physical organism. Have you truly avoided reading the definition I provided this many times? Spirit: An animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms It isn't a physical life form, nor have I argued it to be so. I am saying it is a source which provides life to living beings.
From what expert do you cite this definition?
Quote:
It's an underlying, dormant essence that operates outside of the parameters of physical science, hence why debate or study of its existence is futile.
It completely contradicts mine, and a google search quoting it rendered a lack of results, verifiable or not.
I consider my brain to be my spirit. The brain is personally spiritual to me in that electric signals between neurons and chemical reception within it create what I experience as joy, dismay, love, hatred, fear, etc It also fits the official definition of spirit by being both an animating and vital principle held to give me life as a physical organism. Like you and I both said, it isn't a physical organism, but is a physical organ  The brain does physically exist, and recent technology has allowed its measurement in a scientific form.
Once again, your claims don't add up.
Ahh and now I see that you've edited yet another of your posts As you have read above, my spirit is veritably carried inside of me.
You cant disprove spirit and you cant disprove god
so arguing it is futile, you can only say with xx.xxxxx% certainty, god doesnt exist in our lab reference frame, and we exclude god until proven
a lot of scientists almost become religious after some time ;-) , or maybe just nuts hehe I would imagine it is easy to become half-religious when you realize that we only know 5% of the known universe, check nasa graphs, rest is dark matter/energy = no good idea what it is we know nothing, but we think we know everything
everything I see is 99.999% emptiness , just like myself atoms are mostly empty, atoms make up everything we see
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Just because there are unknowns, doesn't imply God.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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but it is an interesting thought
who is it that thinks? , try meditating on that :-)
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