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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Heffy]
    #19079470 - 11/03/13 09:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



It isn't,



Government is compulsory. Any system which
Quote:

Heffy said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?



The way I see it is that there is a portion of the population who are psychopathic and power hungry. The problem is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want and consequently, they will more often reach the top. Psychopaths run the world.




And in an anarchist society, they would still run the world.



I don't know what you mean by "run the world". How would they run the world without the state?


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"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079477 - 11/03/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that the government is an external force that oppresses the citizens.  The government is made up of citizens elected by other citizens.  The government doesn't force us to do shit.  We force shit on ourselves.

All of the nonsense about everyone working together, etc. is either a utopian ideal based on an unrealistic assessment of human nature, or it requires policies and a group designated to enforce those policies.  THAT is government...even if you want to call it something else.



Government =/= Society.

I did not choose this system and do not consent.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079481 - 11/03/13 09:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They would run the world individually and collectively.  They would individually take from other what they want and enforce their will upon others.  When working together, they would do so on a larger scale.

Either way, it would still become government...A tyranny, for sure...but still a government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079490 - 11/03/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I did not choose this system and do not consent.



You're free to go elsewhere or kill yourself.  Either will take you out of the territorial jurisdiction of wherever you currently live.

By staying put, however, you are subject to the rules created by the citizens of the jurisdiction through their elected representatives.  You can either participate in the rule-making process in an attempt to make it closer to a society of your choosing, or you can ignore it and continue to be subject to rules you disagree with.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079491 - 11/03/13 09:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



It isn't,



Government is compulsory. Any system which
Quote:

Enlil said:
They would run the world individually and collectively.  They would individually take from other what they want and enforce their will upon others.  When working together, they would do so on a larger scale.

Either way, it would still become government...A tyranny, for sure...but still a government.



So your criticism of anarchy is that we couldn't sustain it? I could say the same for limited government.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079497 - 11/03/13 09:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Of course not.  My criticism of anarchy is that it ultimately is a society wherein the strong take what they want from the weak.  It is ultimately a society where rape is the standard procedure for mating and theft is the standard procedure for wealth accumulation.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079505 - 11/03/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I did not choose this system and do not consent.



You're free to go elsewhere or kill yourself.  Either will take you out of the territorial jurisdiction of wherever you currently live.

By staying put, however, you are subject to the rules created by the citizens of the jurisdiction through their elected representatives.  You can either participate in the rule-making process in an attempt to make it closer to a society of your choosing, or you can ignore it and continue to be subject to rules you disagree with.



You see what you're saying? I can't stay here unless I follow rules established my someone else. In effect, I don't really own my property. The state does.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleHalfLight
.
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Black Flag
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079511 - 11/03/13 09:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

As Enlil said, governments are run by citizens.
A government isn't some great, evil entity which is out to get us, it is us.

All of you saying that small portions of psychopathy among citizens is what creates oppression in a system are just trying to fool yourself into thinking you're better than the next guy over.
Come on, remember the Milgram experiments? The Stanford prison experiments?
Nearly all of us will just be shitty given the correct circumstances, which happen to be most circumstances.


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dead man walking


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079516 - 11/03/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The state is not something separate from the people of the state, though.  That's the point of representative government. 

You may not agree to the prohibition on murder, but enough people do that the state has passed a law prohibiting it.  Why should you be free to exempt yourself from that rule?


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight]
    #19079518 - 11/03/13 09:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It all boils down to this: Property rights are absolute. No one has the right to commit aggression against another. The state violates these rules.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079520 - 11/03/13 09:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Property rights are only absolute in your mind.

The truth is that property rights only exist because you live in a society that has chosen to recognize them.  If you didn't, you wouldn't even understand the concept of ownership.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079805 - 11/03/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
All of you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that the government is an external force that oppresses the citizens.  The government is made up of citizens elected by other citizens.  The government doesn't force us to do shit.  We force shit on ourselves.

All of the nonsense about everyone working together, etc. is either a utopian ideal based on an unrealistic assessment of human nature, or it requires policies and a group designated to enforce those policies.  THAT is government...even if you want to call it something else.



Government =/= Society.

I did not choose this system and do not consent.




Society is a fictional construct.


--------------------


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19079885 - 11/03/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i do not agree with anarchy because i do no think its realistic at all. However i do believe in the most limited government possible. So what i like to do is start with anarchy and build up from there adding what a government should be in charge of.

Also you quoted Milton Friedman earlier. His position is not that property rights should be the end all goal. But that equality and maximum prosperity for all should be the end goals, property rights and economic freedom just happen to be the best means to that end.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19079942 - 11/03/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19080071 - 11/03/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
There is a great quote, whose author I don't recall, which I can only paraphrase right now. It states that almost every criticism against government or a government service is taken as an argument against that service being provided.



That was Frederic Bastiat --

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”



Phred


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19080203 - 11/03/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?



i should be more clear. economic/opportunity equality and the maximum amount of potential prosperity


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19080253 - 11/03/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?



i should be more clear. economic/opportunity equality and the maximum amount of potential prosperity



This is an extremely important distinction and I did not think that someone who read Friedman, Milton would have gone where you went with that post.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Phred]
    #19080490 - 11/03/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
There is a great quote, whose author I don't recall, which I can only paraphrase right now. It states that almost every criticism against government or a government service is taken as an argument against that service being provided.



That was Frederic Bastiat --

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”



Phred



Thanks, that is the quote I was looking for. I found it and was just going to post. You beat me.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19080575 - 11/03/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
i do not agree with anarchy because i do no think its realistic at all. However i do believe in the most limited government possible. So what i like to do is start with anarchy and build up from there adding what a government should be in charge of.

Also you quoted Milton Friedman earlier. His position is not that property rights should be the end all goal. But that equality and maximum prosperity for all should be the end goals, property rights and economic freedom just happen to be the best means to that end.



I should say that I am not a huge fan of Friedman. He does have some good quotes though.

But getting back to your statement about the infeasibility of anarchy... Ireland was stateless for 1,000 years. Iceland for well over 300 The Amish are essentially anarchist. I think it's very realistic. I wouldn't expect the entire world or even this country to change over all at once but if it is possible on a small scale, there is no reason to say it couldn't expand. Some people believe that anarchy is the pinnacle of societal evolution. John Lennon's "Imagine" comes to mind, though I don't agree with all of his ideas.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19080959 - 11/03/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Equality and maximum prosperity for all?  Are you sure?



i should be more clear. economic/opportunity equality and the maximum amount of potential prosperity



This is an extremely important distinction and I did not think that someone who read Friedman, Milton would have gone where you went with that post.



yeah that was my fault for assuming that most would be familiar enough with friedman to make to jump. Thanks for catching that though :thumbup:


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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