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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: kneesocks]
    #19079247 - 11/03/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, I don't even know where to start.
Quote:

kneesocks said:
I like how the thread quieted the fuck down after psilynut's post.

"Anarchy", like any other system of government (or lack-of), is inherently going to be corrupt, because an individual or individuals will seek to compete over who gets to lord their power, eventually turning into a feudal system or oligarchy, and we already know how those turn out.

There is no perfect system of government, just some that are more tolerable than others.
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:

I wish I a dollar for every time I've heard something like that.



What the fuck would an anarchist want money for?



Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
In what way?



Dude, to simplify things, you just got hardcore exposed as someone who doesn't understand anarchy at all.

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".



First off, you don't know much about anarchy. At least, you apparently don't know that there is a wide spectrum of anarchist schools of thought.

ANARCHY:  absence of government

Origin of ANARCHY
Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler

I am not against money. Just because I am an anarchist, I do not, and could not, agree with every anarchist who ever lived. The ideas of Proudhon, Kropotkin, etc, are not the only anti state philosophies.

Money is nothing more than stored value. I am not against have wealth or material possessions. I am not a communist. If your narrow definition of anarchist requires me to denounce money then go ahead and call me something else. Some people use "Agorist", "Voluntarist", or "Anarco-Capitalist" ("AnCap" for short).

Every time I avoid calling myself anarchist, someone insists on making me admit I am one. Whenever I say I am an anarchist, I am told that I don't qualify as a true anarchist.

Anarchy would not result in an oligopoly. State cooperation is required for that. Without the state, the market would be open to everyone without restriction and competition would always be possible. What we have now is a fascist system that excludes competition through heavy regulation, high taxation, etc.

Milton Friedman — "Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: psilynut]
    #19079282 - 11/03/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

Taxation is not theft, it's paid protection of your life and property. Unfortunately, our federal government does an absolute shit job off of this for most people, only the impossibly rich.



   
  Its a little more than that ......




If you don't like paying taxes . . .

- Don't drive on paved streets or highways.

- Don't call 911.

- Don't flush your toilet.

- Don't bring your garbage to the curb.

- Don't fly in an airplane that uses air-traffic controllers.

- Don't use the court system.

- Don't call the police when you get robbed.

- Don't use the US Post Office, send all your letters via FedEx or UPS.

- Don't ask for a farm subsidy for not growing crops.

- Don't ask for a taxpayer subsidy to do business in a city or state.

- Don't buy a sports franchise and ask the taxpayers to build your stadium.

- Don't send your children to public schools.

- Don't attend a state university.

- Don't expect a social security payment.

- Don't let Medicare pay your bills if you are over 65 or disabled.

- Don't look for a government contract to bolster your defense industry business.

- Don't look for a government.

- Don't look for a lucrative government consultant contract.

- Don't run for political office where your salary is paid for by the taxpayers.

- Don't accept government research findings that subsidize research for your industry.

- Don't be an airline and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a car company and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a steel company and expect the government to bail you out.

- Don't be a company that pollutes and expect the taxpayer to bail you out.

- Don't climb to the top of the Washington Monument, which is maintained at taxpayer expense.

- Don't make use of police services.

- Don't be rescued by fire department paramedic team.

- Don't call the fire department.

- Don't expect federal assistance if a natural disaster destroys your home or business.

- Don't expect the military to defend our country.

- Don't visit national parks or hike in national forests.

- Don't eat USDA inspected meat, cheese, eggs or produce.

- Don't take any medications tested and approved by the FDA.

- Don't drink, bath or otherwise use the water from municipal water systems.

- Don't look at or relay a weather report.

- Don't look at a NASA generated picture.

- Don't expect a unit of measure like a gallon of gas to be a full gallon.

- Don't expect an elevator to work correctly or not fall.

- Don't expect a red light to work.

- Don't be the Minority Senate Leader Named Trent Lott and expect American taxpayers to subsidize the building of private industry cruiseliner ships in your home state.

- Don't accept government money to help develop a product which you then personally patent or copyright and sell for your own profit.

- Don't use the services of a doctor who is licensed through the state.

- Don't expect research into medical problems such as cancer, heart disease, diabetes, aging, prostrate, menopause, etc.

- Don't use the public library.

- Don't go to a state university affiliated hospital.

- Don't go to a state university.

- Don't watch state college sports.

- Don't apply for government grants.

- Don't use your state's convention centers.

- Don't go to a state, city or municipal-run airport.

- Don't ask for rural electrification.

- Don't ask for FEC regulations that protect us from crooked financial planners.

- Don't ask to keep the airwaves free so your right-wing psycho radio talk show host can lie to you.

- Don't ask for a business loan from the small business administration.

- Don't ask to use the G.I. bill to go to college.

- Don't allow Al Gore to sponsor legislation to turn a military computer network (DARPANet/ARPANet) into the public-accessed "Internet."

- Don't drive a car that benefits from government safety regulations.

- Don't use electricity generated by TVA or some government-owned and maintained dam or facility.

- Don't use currency printed by the US Treasury.

- Don't use a bank or credit union that insures your deposits through the FDIC.

- Don't buy or build a house that requires the efforts of county deed offices or needs building permits and inspections.

- Don't get married, have children or die and expect the government to keep track of all the certificates.

- Don't expect the government to keep an eye on cemeteries, crematories and funeral homes so you won't get dug up and thrown in a swamp. And ask George Bush why he lied about his involvement with a company that did just that.

- Don't run for an elected office, because the local, state and federal election commissions could be involved.

- Don't go to a beach kept clean by the state.

- Don't use public transportation.

- Don't visit public museums.

- Don't go hunting, fishing, or camping on government property.

- Don't cross a bridge.

- Don't use truckstops or public restrooms.

June 24, 2002 Updates

- Don't expect the government to protect the copyright for the works you create.

- Don't move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are higher in all
the others, except South Africa.

- Don't expect your tap water to be clean and germ free.

- Don't expect there to be much wildlife left other than rats.

- Don't use wood or eat meat grown on Forest Service or BLM land.

- Don't eat any food transported on roads.

- Don't eat any vegetables in winter, 'cause they're mostly grown with "reclaimed" water.

- Don't expect any workplace safety standards, labor laws, or minimum wage.

- Don't use any gasoline, oil, or natural gas that was discovered by the USGS.

- Don't live in New Orleans, Sacramento or any other city protected by a levee.

- Don't expect zoning laws.

- Don't expect clean air, clean water, clean soil, etc.

- Don't expect highway signs.

- Don't expect laws against murder, theft, etc. (the govt. DEFINES crime).

- Don't expect to OWN anything, like your house, car, etc. (the govt. keeps track
of titles).

- Don't expect anyone to plow your roads when it snows or sweep them when they're dirty.

- Don't expect the government to regulate industries that have monopolies and use that power to raise your rates for reduced service and product quality.

- Don't expect the government to keep gasoline rates low, compared to the rest of the world.

- Don't expect convicted criminals to be in prison and off your street.

- Don't expect the local government to condemn private property at below market rates so that your major league baseball franchise can build a stadium on the land and make millions of dollars in profit while leaving the taxpayers to foot the bill when the courts order the government to pay the property owners a fair price.

July 26, 2002 Updates

- Don't expect to receive a cheap land lease on Federal lands, then mine or cut the forest for your profit with no repayment to the landlord (we the people).

- Don't expect to have uniform building codes.

- Don't expect to go to buildings and high rises that have been reviewed and inspected during construction to ensure it was built to current building codes.

- Don't expect to eat in restaurants that have been inspected to ensure cleanliness and the safe preparation of food.

- Don't expect your children to be able to ride the bus to school.

- Don't try to adopt a child through your county or state government.

- Don't expect the state or county to pay foster parents to take care of the children left abandoned or orphaned.

- Don't expect the state or county to investigate and/or remove children from neglectful or abusive homes.

- Don't visit the Smithsonian.

- Don't write any material to be published and copyright it.

- Don't go to your book store and try to find a book by its ISBN number.

- Don't expect the government to stop the auto companies from building SUVs that roll over and kill your wife and kids.

- Don't expect the court to appoint a taxpayer-paid attorney to represent you (or your child) when you are accused of a crime.

- Don't call or go to the US Embassy in a foreign country when you get in trouble.

- Don't get a passport or try to get out of the US without a Passport.

- Don't expect to enjoy the benefits of the most stable regime in the world.



There is no way in hell I am going to go through and address this point by point. There is a great quote, whose author I don't recall, which I can only paraphrase right now. It states that almost every criticism against government or a government service is taken as an argument against that service being provided. I do not oppose all of the things you listed (After having a second look, I actually do oppose quite a few of them though), I oppose the establishment and maintenance of a coercive monopoly over these services.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079313 - 11/03/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Every time I avoid calling myself anarchist, someone insists on making me admit I am one. Whenever I say I am an anarchist, I am told that I don't qualify as a true anarchist.




You're such a victim, dude...

Maybe if you didn't post threads named "Fellow Anarchists?" people wouldn't think that you consider yourself an anarchist?


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OfflineEddeee
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: kneesocks]
    #19079346 - 11/03/13 08:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".




Well most anarchists are decent people. They would be the first to give the shirt off there back in time of need.
Anarchy is not a form of government. Its NO GOVERNMENT. with that being said true anarchy in today modern society is basically impossible.It is only posilbe for small groups of people for a limmited amount of time. having lived this life, The only way anarchy is possible is if you live alone on a desert island. So Anarchy is more of a state of mind than a political belief. Most of the younger Anarchists think its about destruction,kaos,riots, and an anything goes mentality, which I belive is not a correct interpretation. Its based on following the Golden Rule. If we all were decent people, meaning world wide belief, then the world would be a differnt place than it is right now.


Edited by Eddeee (11/03/13 09:03 AM)


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079375 - 11/03/13 09:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Two days ago Zappaisgod told me I was an anarchist and chided me for not coming right out and saying it. The very next day I am accused of not being a true anarchist. I can't win! Call me anarchist. Call me agorist, Call me Ishmael! Words have different meaning for different people. I try my best to get the point across and usually that word does the job.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Eddeee]
    #19079379 - 11/03/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You don't see any inconsistency in anarchists being expected to follow a rule?


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Eddeee]
    #19079383 - 11/03/13 09:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Eddeee said:

Quote:

Eddeee said:
True Anarchy is having complete mutual respect and love for all your fellow human beings.



Where I'm from, that is commonly called "being a decent person".




Well most anarchists are decent people. They would be the first to give the shirt off there back in time of need.
Anarchy is not a form of government. Its NO GOVERNMENT. with that being said true anarchy in today modern society is basically impossible.It is only posilbe for small groups of people for a limmited amount of time. having lived this life, The only way anarchy is possible is if you live alone on a desert island. So Anarchy is more of a state of mind than a political belief. Most of the younger Anarchists think its about destruction,kaos,riots, and an anything goes mentality, which I belive is not a correct interpretation. Its based on following the Golden Rule. If we all were decent people, meaning world wide belief, then the world would be a differnt place than it is right now.



I appreciate the way you approach this discussion. I don't agree with you on the infeasibility of large scale statelessness, but we're generally on the same page.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


Edited by MaxwellSmart (11/03/13 09:05 AM)


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
Enemy of State


Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 113
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079389 - 11/03/13 09:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't see any inconsistency in anarchists being expected to follow a rule?



No. I believe in private property and voluntary interactions. If I own a home and you want to live in it, I am fully justified in setting rules. No bonfires in the living room. That is a rule that I would set and if you don't like it, you don't have to live here.


--------------------
"The cost of sanity, in this society, is a certain level of alienation." -Terence McKenna.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079395 - 11/03/13 09:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079409 - 11/03/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund


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InvisibleHalfLight
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Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 2,322
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079415 - 11/03/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



The millions of other people who bear arms due to lack of gun control, and don't wish to see tyranny rise as it did in the former republic.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight] * 1
    #19079417 - 11/03/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079418 - 11/03/13 09:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?


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OfflineEddeee
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079426 - 11/03/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You don't see any inconsistency in anarchists being expected to follow a rule?



I belive the saying following the Golden rule is more of a figure of speach rather than an actual rule. Or better yet more of a personal rule Ever one has rules in there private lives. Things they do or don't do just because the feel its right.
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



I will Stop you by what ever means posible and make it so you won't ever do that again. We will battle and if it looks like your going to take my property I;d burn it to the ground Pollute the fuck out of it,so now you can  have it even though its now worthless I still win." My original post was Mutual respect and Love for all human beings until you fuck me over then I fuck you over worse."


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079429 - 11/03/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



Yes, and If I can't, I have the right to pay someone to protect me or come after you for damages.
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



Government is forced on people who have not been aggressive. If you commit aggression, I am morally justified in defending myself or my property.


--------------------
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InvisibleHalfLight
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: Enlil]
    #19079433 - 11/03/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, people will work together to ensure that unacceptable behavior is not tolerated...

How is that different from government?



It isn't, only there is no single person or group of people which evidently have more responsibility to ensure such, nor is there a single person or group which are given more power to do such. Of course there are those who will make their strongest attempts to gain such responsibilities and powers, so the anarchist system would collapse. Power seeking individuals tend not to have the interest of others in line with their own, thus tyrannical rule would ensue.

I think you and I are on the same page that anarchy wouldn't work.


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OfflineMaxwellSmart
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19079442 - 11/03/13 09:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?



The way I see it is that there is a portion of the population who are psychopathic and power hungry. The problem is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want and consequently, they will more often reach the top. Psychopaths run the world.


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: HalfLight]
    #19079451 - 11/03/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TryinToTrip said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?



The millions of other people who bear arms due to lack of gun control, and don't wish to see tyranny rise as it did in the former republic.



Unless those people choose to organize in a way that allows them to exploit other people, instead of protect their freedom.


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OfflineHeffy
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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079452 - 11/03/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MaxwellSmart said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Until I choose to take your property by force...after all, who's going to stop me?




that's a point that is also true of why communism doesn't work.  The statistical distribution of assholes, psychotics, nut-jobs, and socio-paths among humanity means that in any group there will be certain individuals who will operate for their own benefit no matter what the cost to others.

Such individuals require that society have some rules, norms, and standards to prevent harm to others.  These rules are implemented and enforced by some form of government.

The philosophical question is how much government and what kind of government is necessary?



The way I see it is that there is a portion of the population who are psychopathic and power hungry. The problem is that they are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they want and consequently, they will more often reach the top. Psychopaths run the world.




And in an anarchist society, they would still run the world.


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Re: Fellow Anarchists? [Re: MaxwellSmart]
    #19079458 - 11/03/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

All of you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that the government is an external force that oppresses the citizens.  The government is made up of citizens elected by other citizens.  The government doesn't force us to do shit.  We force shit on ourselves.

All of the nonsense about everyone working together, etc. is either a utopian ideal based on an unrealistic assessment of human nature, or it requires policies and a group designated to enforce those policies.  THAT is government...even if you want to call it something else.


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