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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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A fair point.
I wouldn't be surprised if his issue is the same as mine, I've had more than a couple people recently PM me asking about molds right before/immediately after the first flush on coir. If I'm not mistaken, their issue was the cultures as well.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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I wouldn't be surprised either.
Plus, he's using WBS and I don't know how deep it colonizes. My thinking may be more apropos to rye berries.
It's likely you have him on a better path than I do. I've just been on a "ninja contam vs damaged grain" kick lately.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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I can't say I've ever seen a contam due to damaged grains...I worked with a lot of rye to start and have gone through probably almost half a ton of WBS.
I've dunked them, mixed them evenly, and even spawned under very dirty conditions (outdoors, kitchen, etc) to see if anything would happen. Maybe I'm just extra gentle with my grains? 
Ninja contams though, they are home-wreckers.
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jolo
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 166
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As far as my problem goes, so far so good still.
The mono I put together a couple of days ago is almost fully colonized. I'll probably put it into fruiting tomorrow.
It's evenly colonized throughout the top, sides, and bottom. I can only guess it's doing the same on the inside. There's no stalling like usual. There's no rank smell coming out, again, like usual. No water pooling up, which doesn't happen every time, but more often than not, happens.
I have also wondered about the damaged grains. The only way mine could have gotten damaged was when I toss them in the strainer. They usually drain until they stop dripping, then I toss them around a bit and a good bit more water comes out. My metal strainer could damage them I guess.
As far as mixing goes, I mix pretty gently, but don't pay attention to really being gentle. If you can get what I'm saying.
I always assumed WBS colonized all the way through, at least enough to where nothing else could grow on them, but that's just been my assumption and I have no scientific evidence to back that up. Even if they were damaged, such as cracked in half or something, I figured they'd be okay.
Another problem I might be having is that I use a bucket to mix my CVG in. I DON'T pasteurize in this bucket, just mix.
BUT
It's the same bucket I soak my WBS in before I heat it on the stove.
I do clean the bucket out before and after each run with an acidified bleach solution. (I know the possible dangers of this, but chose to do it anyway)
Then, I pasteurize my CVG in either jars or bags.
I assume that maybe some of the germs from soaking in that bucket get into my CVG. Didn't think about this until today.
So, I ask the question, do you guys use the same bucket for everything?
Another thing I am wondering about is if there is a difference between pasteurizing in jars as apposed to in bags. I have had a very high increase in green since switching from the tedious jars to the simple bags. *this new monotub was done in jars AND is going way better*
I don't see HOW this could equate to a higher contam rate, since no matter if I use jars or a big bag, the core still gets to the same temp and stays there for the same amount of time. But it is a variable I did change at the same time I started seeing contams.
Has anyone else had a difference between jars and bags?
As far as the ninja contam goes. I hope that's not it, I hope I've settled my problem. If I do have a ninja contam (which I'll NEVER be completely sure of, but will have to assume eventually), I will just trash my current cultures, grow a MS and start from clone again.
I have started running my flowhood all the time now, and put another hepa filter in the room. Hopefully will cut down on the spore load.
_____
I feel like mine and Jedi's threads are very related, so if you're checking out this thread, check out Jedi's thread at http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18965268/
Hopefully we can figure this out.
Edited by jolo (10/12/13 03:15 PM)
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jolo
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 166
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
#19074352 - 11/02/13 10:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not packing the substrate tightly has resulted in much faster colonization speeds. I have also not seen any bad molds come up. Its only been a few weeks and I have not experimented enough to say these are true results, but I'm convinced my mold problem stemmed from tightly packed, unbreathable bulk substrate.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
#19074365 - 11/02/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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jolo
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 166
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Also, Frank, I dunked 7 QT of grain spawn and spawned it to around 9 QTs of substrate (650 grams coir, 2 quarts of verm, some gypsum). I spawned it around midnight 10/29, so pretty much 10/30. Then this morning, 11/2, I checked it around 10 AM, and it's fully colonized.
Although it is a very aggressive isolated strain, I'd say the dunk definitely helped.
If only this strain would fruit faster...but can't win em all!
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joiningheads
Enthusiast


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 41
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Re: How hard to pack bulk sub [Re: jolo]
#19075795 - 11/02/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just a thought... Gonna go out on a limb here... Pasteurizing large bags, the outside of the bags may be getting boiled or heated past 170F for a longer period of time than with smaller amounts (jars), thus creating an imbalance in the preparation of the substrate, killing more of the good bacteria, and leading to increased probability of molds from the open air being allowed to germinate. I would imagine one way around this is to slowly heat up the substrate, not letting the water get too hot, etc. Like I said, just a thought... Nice to hear that mycellium tear through that bulk sub! Very good sign!
Edited by joiningheads (11/02/13 04:09 PM)
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Your statement is the common conception. But it is being seriously challenged.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18784975#18784975
Quote:
Frank Horrigan said: It is ok to let the water boil if you are pasteurizing in a hot water bath. The core temp is the only thing that matters.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18499024#18499024
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: There is also no reason not to let your water boil. The center of the substrate is the temp that matters, the rest can hit 200F+ no problem so long as the center remains under 165F.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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therrs a write up called microbial activity in my jpurnal that explains the pasturizing process
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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DeadPhan



Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 5,260
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Who or what gave u the idea to pack your sub right to begin with. I'm alwYs like huh when I see people taking wierd other approaches to tried and tested true methods of cultivation.
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Big Gulps! Alright! Well, See ya later! And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!
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joiningheads
Enthusiast


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 41
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Your statement is the common conception. But it is being seriously challenged.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18784975#18784975
Quote:
Frank Horrigan said: It is ok to let the water boil if you are pasteurizing in a hot water bath. The core temp is the only thing that matters.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18499024#18499024
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: There is also no reason not to let your water boil. The center of the substrate is the temp that matters, the rest can hit 200F+ no problem so long as the center remains under 165F.
Interesting. I don't ever remember hearing of folks cooling their bulk subs after pasteurization. Is that just part of the food industry? I've heard with milk and food-grade items.
cronicr : I'll have to check out your journal!
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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lol youll end up with more q's the a's but not a bad read
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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jolo
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 166
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Quote:
DeadPhan said: Who or what gave u the idea to pack your sub right to begin with. I'm alwYs like huh when I see people taking wierd other approaches to tried and tested true methods of cultivation.
Reading through teks again, none of them really say to pack it tight or loose, so I always packed it down tightly. Most just say mix, but what happened was none said to pack tightly or loosely, so I just did it from the beginning without thinking about it, and it just stuck. I didn't think about doing it, I just did it. It was just a habit, without reason. It wasn't until I thought about it, that I watched a Youtube video about spawning to bulk where I saw that it wasn't packed down at all, and realize I was doing it wrong.
Quote:
joiningheads said: Just a thought... Gonna go out on a limb here... Pasteurizing large bags, the outside of the bags may be getting boiled or heated past 170F for a longer period of time than with smaller amounts (jars), thus creating an imbalance in the preparation of the substrate, killing more of the good bacteria, and leading to increased probability of molds from the open air being allowed to germinate. I would imagine one way around this is to slowly heat up the substrate, not letting the water get too hot, etc. Like I said, just a thought... Nice to hear that mycellium tear through that bulk sub! Very good sign! 
My thought process about this is that you might sterilize some of the substrate, but the "good" bacteria still remains in the inner parts of the substrate and will reproduce and move throughout at an incredible pace.
I put substrate in a bag, put it on the stove, turn it on high until the little bubbles start rising from the bottom of the pot, then turn it off. The water reaches maybe 180 or 190F but at this time the core temperature of the substrate hasn't even hardly risen above 110F, so I think I'm fine according to our current understandings of pasteurization.
I do believe, however, that we all need to learn more about pasteurization than we do now. It seems to be one of those not too clear subject areas. I feel like there could be many improvements made to the bulk spawning part of our grows. A lot of the information I've read here doesn't seem as concrete as many other steps in the grow process.
I'm not going to say much more about this, since I'm not an expert at biology and in one of my recent posts I was flamed pretty badly for not knowing basic/intermediate biology. Don't want to throw any bait to the trolls.
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jolo
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 166
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Quote:
jolo said:
Quote:
DeadPhan said: Who or what gave u the idea to pack your sub right to begin with. I'm alwYs like huh when I see people taking wierd other approaches to tried and tested true methods of cultivation.
Reading through teks again, none of them really say to pack it tight or loose, so I always packed it down tightly. Most just say mix, but what happened was none said to pack tightly or loosely, so I just did it from the beginning without thinking about it, and it just stuck. I didn't think about doing it, I just did it. It was just a habit, without reason. It wasn't until I thought about it, that I watched a Youtube video about spawning to bulk where I saw that it wasn't packed down at all, and realize I was doing it wrong.
Quote:
joiningheads said: Just a thought... Gonna go out on a limb here... Pasteurizing large bags, the outside of the bags may be getting boiled or heated past 170F for a longer period of time than with smaller amounts (jars), thus creating an imbalance in the preparation of the substrate, killing more of the good bacteria, and leading to increased probability of molds from the open air being allowed to germinate. I would imagine one way around this is to slowly heat up the substrate, not letting the water get too hot, etc. Like I said, just a thought... Nice to hear that mycellium tear through that bulk sub! Very good sign! 
My thought process about this is that you might sterilize some of the substrate, but the "good" bacteria still remains in the inner parts of the substrate and will reproduce and move throughout at an incredible pace.
I put substrate in a bag, put it on the stove, turn it on high until the little bubbles start rising from the bottom of the pot, then turn it off. The water reaches maybe 180 or 190F but at this time the core temperature of the substrate hasn't even hardly risen above 110F, so I think I'm fine according to our current understandings of pasteurization.
I do believe, however, that we all need to learn more about pasteurization than we do now. It seems to be one of those not too clear subject areas. I feel like there could be many improvements made to the bulk spawning part of our grows. A lot of the information I've read here doesn't seem as concrete as many other steps in the grow process.
I'm not going to say much more about this, since I'm not an expert at biology and in one of my recent posts I was flamed pretty badly for not knowing basic/intermediate biology. Don't want to throw any bait to the trolls.
Quote:
joiningheads said:
Interesting. I don't ever remember hearing of folks cooling their bulk subs after pasteurization. Is that just part of the food industry? I've heard with milk and food-grade items.
cronicr : I'll have to check out your journal!
My take on this is that the food industry apparently does this, but it makes sense. If you need the core to reach a certain temperature for a certain amount of time, it should only be that temp for that amount of time. I've left bulk subs in the pot over night (turned off after the 90 minutes or however long you pasteurize for) and woken up the next morning and still felt heat coming from them, at least 12 hours later.
I've often wondered if bringing the core to correct temps for the EXACT amount of time would be beneficial. As in heating the sub to temp, then starting to cool it at the exact right time to where once the 90 minutes is up the core hits 140 and continues to cool, but that would be incredibly hard to do.
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