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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19061325 - 10/31/13 12:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a moral nihilist and possibly a mereological nihilist.

Doesn't surprise me you'd post these as your basis in nihilism. I bothered to read up a bit when responding to HTX and found both of these forms to be within, more or less, my views on life these days. :thumbup:

Many people stop reading when they find some part of nihilism that confirms their beliefs or needs rather than trying to understand completely.  I find the ideas behind nihilism far from lazy.  I don't see how life is a cakewalk for anyone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/31/13 12:49 AM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19061356 - 10/31/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

We seem to have a lot in common philosophically, which is interesting because I consider myself somewhat eclectic compared to most people

After reading more about existential nihilism I'd say I'm on the fence about that as well, inherently there is no reason to believe that there is any objective "meaning" to life, and made up meaning doesn't replace that as far as I care.
On the other hand maybe there is some "meaning" or "purpose" to life which I'm simply not aware of, for the time being I would say I don't have a belief on the matter but lean on the idea that there is no meaning because thus far there is no evidence for any meaning.


Edited by Repertoire89 (10/31/13 01:04 AM)


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19061640 - 10/31/13 03:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nihilism is what brought me to study up on all things philosophical/spiritual to begin with, its what brought me to this forum..I had a long debate with someone after he told me "nihilism is the answer." in so many words, and all I could really do was ask him to question deeper. My only logical argument was that if we cannot know meaning or that there is no meaning or value to anything, then why stop at 'no meaning' and give meaning and value to that viewpoint.
Its absurd, but thats what nihilism is about so meh. The more studying I do and the more life I live the more I can relate to nihilism but still..

When told that nihilism was the answer, my question/answer was "Why settle?"


That is why I said lazy..not meaning that nihilism is a cake-walk by any means, but that its proprietors have given up on the question.

And the question is advantageous to the answer.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19061831 - 10/31/13 05:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I tend to agree with existentialism.  We make our own meanings because we don't know any objective meaning.

And giving up a question because one determines it's unanswerable is not laziness but rather wisdom imo.  Assuming that's what their motive is.  Maybe different for each person.

There's a lot of depressives and cynics going around in the uniform of nihilist's imo.  They likely don't even know what it really is about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/31/13 06:04 AM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19062585 - 10/31/13 10:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

There's a lot of depressives and cynics going around in the uniform of nihilist's imo.  They likely don't even know what it really is about.




That crowd definitely abounds.



Quote:

hTx said:

When told that nihilism was the answer, my question/answer was "Why settle?"




Subjective / personal meaning is irrelevant when considering whether or not there is objective meaning, I have my own goals and reasons for living but they exist only in my own mind.
Nihilism isn't a bleak philosophy like its made out to be, one could technically be a mereological nihilist and believe in the flying spaghetti monster.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19062601 - 10/31/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:

You and I do think alike in very many ways.  I'm wondering how old you are.  If you are still in your twenties then you are worlds ahead of where I was at that time. 

That's not necessarily  a good thing for you but it might be. :satansmoking:

It's been a very great pleasure to run across people such as yourself here at the shroomery.  It's very rare that I ever do and it means a great deal to me personally.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #19062616 - 10/31/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

That's not necessarily  a good thing for you but it might be. :satansmoking:




:lolsy:

I'm 24, pretty happy with life so far. Been through enough hard times to be satisfied with hedonism if nothing else, but there's plenty of time for that to change.


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Offlinemindgnome
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19062643 - 10/31/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The planets revolve around the sun and if there were no sun the planets would just be asteroids flying through space. I don't know if I follow your logic. Love is the sun of humanity because if there is no love there is only chaos. The universe is indifferent to what happens though but within earth there are consequences and rewards for your actions.


--------------------
"As I walk on through troubled times my spirit gets so downhearted sometimes so where are the strong and who are the trusted? And where is the harmony? Sweet harmony. Cause each time I feel it slippin' away, just makes me wanna cry. What's so funny 'bout peace love & understanding?" - Nick Lowe

"Psychedelic drugs don't change you - they don't change your character - unless you want to be changed. They enable change; they can't impose it...” - Sasha Shulgin


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: mindgnome]
    #19062681 - 10/31/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mindgnome said:
The planets revolve around the sun and if there were no sun the planets would just be asteroids flying through space. I don't know if I follow your logic. Love is the sun of humanity because if there is no love there is only chaos.




Love is a word misrepresenting sincere empathy, paraded about by charlatans for their own misuse. Charlatans from Disney World to India and worst of all teenagers who want to get laid - control someone - reproduce.

That word has been dragged through the gutters so much it makes me sick to hear it, more importantly though what does your perception have to do with objective reality? You value empathy and see patterns in astronomy, anything taken from that is a subjective opinion - not enough evidence to outline any objective meaning in life.


Quote:

The universe is indifferent to what happens though but within earth there are consequences and rewards for your actions.




That's true enough, but how is it relevant?


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19063145 - 10/31/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.





People use the word to mean different things, so I'm not sure what you mean. But usually nihilism has something to do with lack of meaning. So then of course what do we mean by meaning?

Meaning usually is about the purpose of life, a reason for it, some motivating factor that justifies actions.

Using these definitions, I think the ultimate test of a Nihilist is, can they do nothing until they die of thirst? If the supposed Nihilist so much as shifts their body position to get comfortable, then they have done something that is personally meaningful to them. That person, for whatever reason, finds personal meaning in being comfortable.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Freedom]
    #19064203 - 10/31/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Cactilove said:
Does anyone have a logical argument against nihilism? I have been studying it a bit lately and have found that this label seems to fit my current viewpoint. I really think that this is the most logical philosophy that I have come across.





People use the word to mean different things, so I'm not sure what you mean. But usually nihilism has something to do with lack of meaning. So then of course what do we mean by meaning?

Meaning usually is about the purpose of life, a reason for it, some motivating factor that justifies actions.

Using these definitions, I think the ultimate test of a Nihilist is, can they do nothing until they die of thirst? If the supposed Nihilist so much as shifts their body position to get comfortable, then they have done something that is personally meaningful to them. That person, for whatever reason, finds personal meaning in being comfortable.




If you're referring to existentialist nihilism, instinct is enough to provide reason why one would act according to their physical interests. That doesn't give the instincts any meaning of their own.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19065418 - 10/31/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He lives, but he does not exist.

He exists, but he does not live.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19065448 - 10/31/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Do you not see the appeal of nihilism?


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Cactilove]
    #19065689 - 10/31/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I said in an earlier post I am partial towards it, however nihilism doesn't say anything about synchronicity. My experience with synchronicity tells me its a very real phenomena.

My experience is also telling me, however, that one shouldn't put to much meaning into them either.

Nihilism, for myself, is an interesting read and I understand the appeal. Break down all falseness but I don't believe that it all breaks down into absolutely no meaning or value..imo that is making quite a leap of logic and is the same as saying the universe is full of meaning and value, because it is its exact opposite.

I do see the redemption quality. I do see the freedom. But I also hold redemption and freedom to be very valuable and meaningful to any individual. So nihilism is paradoxical at best.

Every human being has value, imo, every event is meaningful to myself (and others) and my (and others) existence. A philosophy that takes away that value and that meaning is, imo, extremely dangerous. 

But it happens.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19065781 - 10/31/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

What I truly believe is that we see what we believe.

If you believe in a universe void of meaning than you will get a universe void of meaning.
If you believe in a universe full of meaning than you will get a universe full of meaning.

If your stuck in the middle,than you will see signs of both as I do now.
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

The only logical conclusion is this: We are in control of our perceptions and our perceptions reflect themselves in reality. Change your perception, change your reality.

Its all up to you, good sir.  :hatsoff:

The fundamental truth contained with nihilism that I am partial towards is this exact sentiment.

But they make a leap by saying this means a lack of meaning or value. No evidence.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Edited by hTx (10/31/13 08:21 PM)


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19066764 - 10/31/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well nihilism is a set of ideas not a belief, personally I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything or sell any kind of idea.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19067266 - 11/01/13 12:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'll buy that.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19067351 - 11/01/13 12:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

what separates a set of ideas from a belief other than our belief in them? I get what your saying though.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineThecrimson
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: hTx]
    #19073849 - 11/02/13 07:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If anything does have a meaning, who has the authority to give it that meaning? Who has the authority to say why the universe is here? Or why a moral exists or not? I'm not against Nihilism, but doesn't someone declaring that something has a meaning, give it a meaning? If we don't give something a purpose then who will?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Arguments Against Nihilism? [Re: Thecrimson]
    #19073901 - 11/02/13 07:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'd be glad to give it a meaning if I could come up with something that satisfied my logical mind.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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