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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076160 - 11/02/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The tea party is meh.  They never really had a consistent platform.  I dug their stance on small government, but they never really came to any consensus about where the line should be drawn.

I prefer libertarians to tea partiers any day.




Why?


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076161 - 11/02/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

What small government platform?  The small government that wanted to criminalize a woman's constitutional right to abortion?  The small government that wants to ban same-sex marriages?  The small government that creates new laws to prevent non-existent in-person voter fraud?  The small government that allows companies to destroy the economy with no retribution?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19076175 - 11/02/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
What small government platform?  The small government that wanted to criminalize a woman's constitutional right to abortion? 




Please show me that right.  Thanks in advance
Quote:

The small government that wants to ban same-sex marriages?




Please expplain to me why the government is involved in sanctioning marriage at all?
Quote:

The small government that creates new laws to prevent non-existent in-person voter fraud?




There is plenty of voter fraud.
Quote:



The small government that allows companies to destroy the economy with no retribution?




Companies do not destroy the economy.  Governments do.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076257 - 11/02/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

They are exempt from the requirements of Obamacare.  They got a waiver.  So did over a 1000 other entities.  What part of that do you not understand?




The part where you are saying they are exempt from Obamacare.  These waivers you speak of aren't blanket exemptions, but for specific requirements in the law, and they aren't meant to be permanent.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/23/crossroads-gps/unions-dont-have-comply-obamacare-says-crossroads-/

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/white-house-labor-obamacare-exemption-96793.html

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/10/that-thing-about-unions-being-waived-from-obamacare-another-whopper-lie/

Quote:

He isn't using it.  What part of that do you not understand?  He clearly does not believe in public schooling since he didn't send his own kids there.




You keep using the same argument over and over.  It simply isn't true.  Just because you send your children to an elite private school doesn't mean you don't support the public school system.  There is no logic to support your conclusion.  Send your child to an average to above average public school, or an elite private school.  If you can afford to do the latter, why wouldn't you?

Quote:

Are you lying when you say they are constitutional?




Did I say they were?

Quote:

If you are correct you will be even more fucked than both of them.  You are going to run out fo other people's money to confiscate and then what will you do?  Work?




Taxation isn't confiscation.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19076276 - 11/02/13 05:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

They are exempt from the requirements of Obamacare.  They got a waiver.  So did over a 1000 other entities.  What part of that do you not understand?




The part where you are saying they are exempt from Obamacare.  These waivers you speak of aren't blanket exemptions, but for specific requirements in the law, and they aren't meant to be permanent.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/23/crossroads-gps/unions-dont-have-comply-obamacare-says-crossroads-/

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/white-house-labor-obamacare-exemption-96793.html

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/10/that-thing-about-unions-being-waived-from-obamacare-another-whopper-lie/




No shit.  Either you have to comply with all of the law like I do or you get a fucking exemption. 
Quote:



Quote:

He isn't using it.  What part of that do you not understand?  He clearly does not believe in public schooling since he didn't send his own kids there.




You keep using the same argument over and over.  It simply isn't true.  Just because you send your children to an elite private school doesn't mean you don't support the public school system.  There is no logic to support your conclusion.  Send your child to an average to above average public school, or an elite private school.  If you can afford to do the latter, why wouldn't you?




What's good for thee is not good for me?
Quote:



Quote:

Are you lying when you say they are constitutional?




Did I say they were?




You said he was lying when he expressed his opinion that they were unconstitutional.  Are you lying when you express your opinion that that is a lie?
Quote:



Quote:

If you are correct you will be even more fucked than both of them.  You are going to run out fo other people's money to confiscate and then what will you do?  Work?




Taxation isn't confiscation.




It is exactly confiscation.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19076326 - 11/02/13 05:53 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Please show me that right.  Thanks in advance






The Court later rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability.[1] The Roe decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid", adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade


Quote:

Please expplain to me why the government is involved in sanctioning marriage at all?




Tax purposes, death benefits, and the like.

Quote:

There is plenty of voter fraud.




Not in-person voter fraud.  This is a fact, and I'm not arguing it any more.  Last time we got into this I provided plenty of sources attesting to this.

Quote:

Companies do not destroy the economy.  Governments do.




While I had meant to say "environment," I'll stick by what I said.

Quote:

No shit.  Either you have to comply with all of the law like I do or you get a fucking exemption. 




Apply for your own waiver.

Quote:

You said he was lying when he expressed his opinion that they were unconstitutional.  Are you lying when you express your opinion that that is a lie?




I said he was lying when he tried to factually state that something was unconstitutional when it had never been tested by the courts.  I'm not a judge, I don't choose whether something is constitutional or not.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19076340 - 11/02/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
What small government platform?  The small government that wanted to criminalize a woman's constitutional right to abortion?  The small government that wants to ban same-sex marriages?  The small government that creates new laws to prevent non-existent in-person voter fraud?  The small government that allows companies to destroy the economy with no retribution?



I'm all for legal abortion, but roe v wade was wrongly decided and was based on another wrongly decided case.  That's not a government size issue.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076357 - 11/02/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It goes against their small government mantra, though, when they introduce record numbers of anti-abortion bills, based on their desire to turn our nation into a Christian theocracy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #19076374 - 11/02/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Please show me that right.  Thanks in advance






The Court later rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability.[1] The Roe decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid", adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade




I was looking for a passage from the Constitution.  You do know that viability is a movable goal post, don't you?  I believe your link made that point as well. 
Quote:




Quote:

Please expplain to me why the government is involved in sanctioning marriage at all?




Tax purposes, death benefits, and the like.




That doesn't answer my question.  Why should the government be sanctioning marriage for any of those purposes?  Why should the government treat married people differently in the tax code?  It is unjust.  Death benefits?  What death benefits?  Why is the government doling out death benefits?
Quote:



Quote:

There is plenty of voter fraud.




Not in-person voter fraud.  This is a fact, and I'm not arguing it any more.  Last time we got into this I provided plenty of sources attesting to this.




Yeah I know and since I beat your ass in it you have now added the "in person" line.  How do you know if there are no ID requirements?
Quote:



Quote:

Companies do not destroy the economy.  Governments do.




While I had meant to say "environment," I'll stick by what I said.




You can stick to the floor for all I care. 
Quote:



Quote:

No shit.  Either you have to comply with all of the law like I do or you get a fucking exemption. 




Apply for your own waiver.




My insurer dropped my plan but my Republican Party representatives did exactly that about a month ago.  They were denied.
Quote:



Quote:

You said he was lying when he expressed his opinion that they were unconstitutional.  Are you lying when you express your opinion that that is a lie?




I said he was lying when he tried to factually state that something was unconstitutional when it had never been tested by the courts.  I'm not a judge, I don't choose whether something is constitutional or not.




He expressed what was clearly an opinion.  Ones which I mostly do not agree with, by the way.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076376 - 11/02/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
What small government platform?  The small government that wanted to criminalize a woman's constitutional right to abortion?  The small government that wants to ban same-sex marriages?  The small government that creates new laws to prevent non-existent in-person voter fraud?  The small government that allows companies to destroy the economy with no retribution?



I'm all for legal abortion, but roe v wade was wrongly decided and was based on another wrongly decided case.  That's not a government size issue.



I always thought it was a fine piece of legislation.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076390 - 11/02/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I love your inconsistency, zappa.  Earlier you're calling chemerinsky a liar because of an opinion he gave...now you're saying opinions aren't lies.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076401 - 11/02/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I love your inconsistency, zappa.  Earlier you're calling chemerinsky a liar because of an opinion he gave...now you're saying opinions aren't lies.



:grin:I knew this was going to come back.

I don't have the time to peruse all of the fascist cunt's writings.  I just went to wiki.  I'm sure there's something.  Is that whackjob some kind of hero to you?


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076417 - 11/02/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah I know and since I beat your ass in it you have now added the "in person" line.  How do you know if there are no ID requirements?




You didn't "beat [my] ass" in anything.

From a link I had provided:
Quote:



Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Most citizens who take the time to vote offer their legitimate signatures and sworn oaths with the gravitas that this hard-won civic right deserves. Even for the few who view voting merely as a means to an end, however, voter fraud is a singularly foolish way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine - but yields at most one incremental vote. The single vote is simply not worth the price.

Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.




If we took Washington's numbers, that would equal ~1400 fraudulent votes nationwide.  Negligible amounts.  If you used Ohio's number, that's a whole 60 fraudulent votes. 

Quote:

He expressed what was clearly an opinion.  Ones which I mostly do not agree with, by the way.




Really, calling something unconstitutional on a blog where you're reporting "facts" about Obama's misconduct turns it into an opinion?  Even though you represent it as a fact?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076460 - 11/02/13 06:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

He's not a hero, but he is the preeminent scholar on the constitution.  He's a bit of a left wing nut, but his work as a constitutional scholar is awesome.

Sorta like Chomsky is a brilliant linguist even though his other work is garbage.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076534 - 11/02/13 06:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
He's not a hero, but he is the preeminent scholar on the constitution.  He's a bit of a left wing nut, but his work as a constitutional scholar is awesome.

Sorta like Chomsky is a brilliant linguist even though his other work is garbage.




He may be a prominent scholar but he clearly isn't the preeminent scholar.  What kind of constitutional scholar would argue that just because a gang of politicians believes something essential rights can be trampled?  Why have a Constitution at all?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19076562 - 11/02/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

Yeah I know and since I beat your ass in it you have now added the "in person" line.  How do you know if there are no ID requirements?




You didn't "beat [my] ass" in anything.

From a link I had provided:
Quote:



Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Most citizens who take the time to vote offer their legitimate signatures and sworn oaths with the gravitas that this hard-won civic right deserves. Even for the few who view voting merely as a means to an end, however, voter fraud is a singularly foolish way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine - but yields at most one incremental vote. The single vote is simply not worth the price.

Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.




If we took Washington's numbers, that would equal ~1400 fraudulent votes nationwide.  Negligible amounts.  If you used Ohio's number, that's a whole 60 fraudulent votes. 

Quote:

He expressed what was clearly an opinion.  Ones which I mostly do not agree with, by the way.




Really, calling something unconstitutional on a blog where you're reporting "facts" about Obama's misconduct turns it into an opinion?  Even though you represent it as a fact?




The facts were the behavior.  Obama did do those things.  The question of Constitutionality is opinion.  Which, I repeat, I do not agree with him on for the most part.  But I bet you do.

http://www.truethevote.org/news/how-widespread-is-voter-fraud-2012-facts-figures

Quote:


    To date, 46 states have prosecuted or convicted cases of voter fraud.
    More than 24 million voter registrations are invalid, yet remain on the rolls nation-wide.
    There are over 1.8 million dead voters still eligible on the rolls across the country.
    More than 2.75 million Americans are registered to vote in more than one state.
    True The Vote recently found 99 cases of potential felony interstate voter fraud.
    Maryland affiliates of True The Vote uncovered cases of people registering and voting after their respective deaths.
    This year, True The Vote uncovered more than 348,000 dead people on the rolls in 27 states.
        California: 49,000
        Florida: 30,000
        Texas: 28,500
        Michigan: 25,000
        Illinois: 24,000
    12 Indiana counties have more registered voters than residents.
    The Ohio Secretary of State admitted that multiple Ohio counties have more registered voters than residents.
    Federal records showed 160 counties in 19 states have over 100 percent voter registration.
    The Florida New Majority Education Fund, Democratic Party of Florida and the National Council of La Raza are currently under investigation for alleged voter registration fraud.
    True The Vote is Chuck Norris approved.

How popular is Voter ID?

    74 percent of Americans support, according to The Washington Post.
    71 percent of Latinos support it, according to the PEW Research Center.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-concerns-about-voter-fraud-spur-broad-support-for-voter-id-laws/2012/08/11/40db3aba-e2fb-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html

Quote:

Almost three-quarters of all Americans support the idea that people should have to show photo identification to vote, even though they are nearly as concerned about voter suppression as they are about fraud in presidential elections, according to a new




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076576 - 11/02/13 06:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lawyers argue and advocate.  You know this.  And as I said in the other thread, the government only needs a good faith belief that a compelling interest will be served by the law...they don't have to be correct.  If they have such a belief and the law is narrowly tailored to the interest, it's constitutional.  Con law 101, dude.  Ask your daughter.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076592 - 11/02/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lawyers argue and advocate.  You know this.  And as I said in the other thread, the government only needs a good faith belief that a compelling interest will be served by the law...they don't have to be correct.  If they have such a belief and the law is narrowly tailored to the interest, it's constitutional.  Con law 101, dude.  Ask your daughter.




I am going to ask again.  If any gang of politician du jour decides they believe something does your right against illegal search and seizure disappear?  You're right to publish a newspaper?  If that is so then there are no rights.  Why bother with the charade?


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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19076633 - 11/02/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

All it takes is a compelling state interest and that the law be narrowly tailored to that interest.  If politicians can articulate a compelling interest that they have a good faith belief will be served by infringing either of those rights, and the law is narrowly tailored to the interest, it's constitutional. 

Tons of laws infringing fourth and first amendment rights are constitutional.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Big Money is done with the Tea Party. [Re: Enlil]
    #19076666 - 11/02/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I believe the statement he made was well short of demanding either "compelling" or "establishing" and cited a simple "belief" on the part of the politicians du jour.  Any way the wind blows.


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