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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19051764 - 10/29/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Will there still be law enforcement?

How will laws be decided?

How will disputes be settled?

What will happen to publicly ran national parks etc.?





this is exactly why i started this thread. Dear god so many fucking misconceptions. I'll answer those questions simply and in order....

yes

by the government

courts

I still believe in public/national parks but they should by privately managed as they do a better job. There are a lot of parks in california and other places that have publicly owner parks with private companies managing them. And they are doing great.


Libertarianism IS NOT ANARCHY. There will still be law enforcement, courts, laws, parks, etc. It just means a smaller centralized government. Power would be given back to the local levels. Just like you were advocating for in your communist system.


--------------------
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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19051784 - 10/29/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yea the range of the governments power would severely curtailed. The main idea is to leave people alone and let them pursue happiness without government restrictions impeding there progress.


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OfflineEddYerb
Stranger
Registered: 10/11/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19051882 - 10/29/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19051896 - 10/29/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Well then we agree on some level, however I still don't see how decreased regulations of the market won't result in concentrations of power in the hands of a small few at the detriment to the majority.



The majority will have a higher standard of living and the ability to make something of themselves. Social mobility will be high both up and down making for a more flexible and efficient society.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 1
    #19051909 - 10/29/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

let me ask you something. Isn't that whats happening now? Isn't power and wealth getting concentrated at the top? This has been accelerating as more government power/regulations/mandates get put into place. So what makes you think continuing doing the exact same thing will change anything at all? The bank bailouts gave government sponsorship to the baking elites, ObamaCare is giving government sponsorship to the insurance companies, they're making a killing out of this bill. Can you imagine how enraged people would be if a government mandate came out requiring everyone to shop at walmart? Or Ford? Capitalism gives more freedom of choice, allowing individuals to better serve themselves by having the ability to make money and vote with their dollars about what companies to support. And when individuals flourish the communities flourish


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OfflineEddYerb
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Registered: 10/11/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: psyconaught]
    #19051975 - 10/29/13 01:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


Edited by EddYerb (10/29/13 01:27 PM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 2
    #19052003 - 10/29/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I do not trust the market



This statement i think is the crux of your argument. in which case i will respond with a quote.

“A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.”
― Milton Friedman


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19052013 - 10/29/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

oh and i feel i should respond to this statement you made
Quote:

I don't know whether survival of the fittest is ingrained in our DNA or not, it is certainly how we came about, but there has always had to be a level of cooperation.




not only is survival of the fittest ingrained in our DNA but it is ingrained in the DNA of every single living organism. Its called evolution


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
Herbivore Man

Registered: 03/01/12
Posts: 11,671
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19052500 - 10/29/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

I do not trust the market



This statement i think is the crux of your argument. in which case i will respond with a quote.

“A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.”
― Milton Friedman



:kaneclap: Check and mate Eddyerb


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman] * 2
    #19052615 - 10/29/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:


What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.




Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist.  See ObamaCare. 
Quote:



True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.




I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win.  Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.




"he is also heavily socialist. See Obamacare."

How is Obama care a socialist program?  The President is on TV begging people to BUY health insurance from "for profit" companies.



For profit companies whose profit he is restricting and so heavily regulating to such an extent that they are dropping individual plans all over country.  It has been estimated that over 80% of people on individual plans will be dropped and forced into government run plans.  This is my plight as of 12/31.  Heavily subsidized for losers.  Most of the people who are signing up are signing up for MedicAid and not the private insurance.  Large employers and unions (i.e. Kollektifs) have been granted waivers and delays.  His goal is total government control.
Quote:



"the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win"

True, but the wealth gap has accelerated at a historic rate under this Presidents tenure, this is not common in recent US economic history.  During the 1940-70's, the reverse was happening, I would assume you would agree that era was one of the best in US economic history.




The US worker did great in the post war years because there was no competition.  Japan and Europe were devastated by war.  Russia and China similarly with the added burden of communism.  India was a total backwater shithole.  Still mostly is, as are Russia and China.  The American worker had no global competition due to factors entirely unrelated to his abilities.  Further there was the flooding of the workforce, beginning in the seventies, by millions and millions of women who had previously stayed home.  I am not saying that is a bad thing but it is nonetheless and increase in labor supply totally unrelated to demand.  Earnings for those not in the top 1/10th of 1% have not declined, they have been stagnant when adjusted for inflation.  Further, your buck buys more ease now than ever before.  When I was a kid air-conditioning was rare, dishwashers were almost non-existent, entertainment was limited and telephone service was expensive and limited to a wire in the wall.

There is not one shred of evidence that if Jamie Dimon makes less money anybody else will make more.  Further these people do not go out and buy a Cadillac the first chance they get nor do they have children they can't support or screw themselves into an alcohol or drug fog.  They don't go to jail for slugging somebody in a bar.  Losers are going to lose.  Mediocrities are going to be mediocre and stars are going to shine.  Get over it.  The earnings of the stars does not cost you a dime and they make me money and everybody I hire because they like to use elite trades.  I leave the construction of tract houses to others with no skill.  They bore me.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19052626 - 10/29/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Like I have said though,  America is the realisation of capitalism and it is significantly behind other socialist European states on many levels (healthcare, education, quality of life, happiness, social mobility). I think that our system at the moment is primitive, exploitative and inherently flawed, but believe that the regulation, when properly implemented, can help alleviate some of these problems and the problems stemming from the system.

I do not trust the market, there are very clear market failures (environmental damage, stifling of new technologies). I agree with your vision of the world but do not believe it will be realised how you anticipate it.

Is not modern America in fact the product of libertarian capitalistic ideals? It may start off functioning properly but eventually will be hijacked by certain powerful groups with the influence and power (read: money) to distort and contort the general public in a way that will benefit them.

It seems to me that libertarianism is not at all a bad idea. It is capital libertarianism that seems inherently flawed, and more so than our current system, the ideals I agree with, but I just cannot see how it would pan out practically.




America has not been truly capitalist for a hundred years.


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OfflineEddYerb
Stranger
Registered: 10/11/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: psyconaught]
    #19056620 - 10/30/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


Edited by EddYerb (10/30/13 12:00 PM)


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb] * 1
    #19056760 - 10/30/13 09:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

But it does not get to the bottom of why they desire these so much




Quote:

"gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want"




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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 days, 5 hours
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19057656 - 10/30/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Smokey420 said:


What Obama says, and what he actually does in office are two completely different things. Just like the majority of every politician ever.
Not that i doubt he ever said "spread around the wealth" but more then likely you herd it taken of of context on some conservative talk show propaganda machine.
  Honestly all you have to do is look what the Socialist party of America has to say about him. They hate him, like every other socialist or communist should. He's a strong state capitalist that voted to bail out corporate America, and is a strong supporter of the military industrial complex, and Wall-street. His administration is stocked with chairmen of Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae.  He's a huge capitalist, ask any socialist.




I agree, Obama might be a "socialist" in his true spirit, but he governs like a corporate capitalist.




Somewhat but he is also heavily socialist.  See ObamaCare. 
Quote:



True liberals really do despise Obama, how does the top 1/10 of !% increase their wealth by 20% and the bottom 99% lose a portion of their wealth during his tenure if he governs like a socialist?  He's bought and paid for, his true ideology is meaningless at the end of the day.




I don't want to break your heart but the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win.  Whether they are capitalist Wall Streeters or communist apparatchiks.




"he is also heavily socialist. See Obamacare."

How is Obama care a socialist program?  The President is on TV begging people to BUY health insurance from "for profit" companies.



For profit companies whose profit he is restricting and so heavily regulating to such an extent that they are dropping individual plans all over country.  It has been estimated that over 80% of people on individual plans will be dropped and forced into government run plans.  This is my plight as of 12/31.  Heavily subsidized for losers.  Most of the people who are signing up are signing up for MedicAid and not the private insurance.  Large employers and unions (i.e. Kollektifs) have been granted waivers and delays.  His goal is total government control.
Quote:



"the top 1/10th of 1% is always going to win"

True, but the wealth gap has accelerated at a historic rate under this Presidents tenure, this is not common in recent US economic history.  During the 1940-70's, the reverse was happening, I would assume you would agree that era was one of the best in US economic history.




The US worker did great in the post war years because there was no competition.  Japan and Europe were devastated by war.  Russia and China similarly with the added burden of communism.  India was a total backwater shithole.  Still mostly is, as are Russia and China.  The American worker had no global competition due to factors entirely unrelated to his abilities.  Further there was the flooding of the workforce, beginning in the seventies, by millions and millions of women who had previously stayed home.  I am not saying that is a bad thing but it is nonetheless and increase in labor supply totally unrelated to demand.  Earnings for those not in the top 1/10th of 1% have not declined, they have been stagnant when adjusted for inflation.  Further, your buck buys more ease now than ever before.  When I was a kid air-conditioning was rare, dishwashers were almost non-existent, entertainment was limited and telephone service was expensive and limited to a wire in the wall.

There is not one shred of evidence that if Jamie Dimon makes less money anybody else will make more.  Further these people do not go out and buy a Cadillac the first chance they get nor do they have children they can't support or screw themselves into an alcohol or drug fog.  They don't go to jail for slugging somebody in a bar.  Losers are going to lose.  Mediocrities are going to be mediocre and stars are going to shine.  Get over it.  The earnings of the stars does not cost you a dime and they make me money and everybody I hire because they like to use elite trades.  I leave the construction of tract houses to others with no skill.  They bore me.





"Earnings for those not in the top 1/10th of 1% have not declined, they have been stagnant when adjusted for inflation."

I disagree, if we eliminate the top 5%, real wages have declined and have really accelerated to the downside since 2000. http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/median-household-income-has-fallen-for-five-years-in-a-row

Higher rates of unemployment are proof of this fact, why pay more when you have a excess pool of unskilled and skilled workers?



Edited by qman (10/30/13 02:01 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: qman]
    #19058643 - 10/30/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Higher rates of unemployment right now (do not forget they were incredibly and deleteriously low in the early aughts) are pretty much a direct function of Obama policies after nearly 5 years of recovery.  It has nothing to do with Jamie Dimon's level of compensation.


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OfflineEddYerb
Stranger
Registered: 10/11/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19063148 - 10/31/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19063412 - 10/31/13 01:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
Psychonaut, can you respond to my edited post at some point?

I've also got a few more questions.

How would a libertarian America work within the international system? Would protectionist subsidies be abolished (I assume so) and would all barriers to foreign trade be removed?

Would this then lead to a removal of labour barriers, effectively an opening of borders, or would the same immigration laws be upheld?

Would foreign imports be free of tariffs? If this is the case then what would happen to US agriculture (the current government seems to believe that a removal of these barriers would result in an end to a lot of US agriculture (e.g strawberries)?

What would happen to the thousands of jobless or homeless in your country? Would the state provide welfare?



i'll make sure to respond later. Very busy today so i don't have time. I will address the points thought I'm not trying to flake out of the argument.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: psyconaught]
    #19063990 - 10/31/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Libertarianism inasmuch as I follow has exactly zero impact on foreign policy.  Foreign policy is give no quarter, look out for yourself.  Libertarianism is not involved. It is a strictly domestic doctrine.


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OfflineEddYerb
Stranger
Registered: 10/11/13
Posts: 157
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19064762 - 10/31/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EddYerb

Reason for deletion: Want to remove


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian discussions (both for and against) [Re: EddYerb]
    #19064820 - 10/31/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EddYerb said:
What do you mean? Give no quarter look out for yourself?




Yes.  Why should I give a fuck about the French?  They suck.
Quote:



I'm talking about US foreign policy, which is pretty extensive really. I.E. Trade tariffs, developmental aid, involvement with international organisations, security of resources etc.




Yeah, so?  What does that have to do with libertarianism?
Quote:



The international order is kind of 'give no quarter, look out for yourself' but at the same time it isn't at all. Aid mechanisms are pretty extensive, the EU plans on having 0.7% of GDP as designated foreign aid, and the US gave around $50 Billion in 2011. Also there are  alliances, both formal and informal, and an insane amount of international laws and treaties, which the US is quite often part of.




Yeah, so?  What does that have to do with libertarianism?
Quote:



The most important foreign policy issues would be related to tariffs on foreign goods. I would assume that a capitalist libertarian system would abolish tariffs and barriers to trade creating truly free trade between other countries. If this were to be the case though it would cause serious problems for certain US industries.




Only if they all do.  Absent that unicorn I will repeat;


"Yeah, so?  What does that have to do with libertarianism?"


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