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crazy938264
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Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 52
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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A bad harvest
#19060860 - 10/30/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good day shroomery community.... So my last crop was the worst harvest I have ever had... Not that they have all been bad. I have been doing this for several years now and the majority of my grows have been quite successful. So I have come back for a little more guidance. I use jars, pf tech with a few of my own tweaks. I had what I thought was a great crop colonizing in my jars, with what I thought was mushroom matter beginning to form on the bottom of my most of my jars. The lumps, that had a slight blue color to them (which I assumed was from a slight bruise From me flipping the jars over to check the bottoms) never matured into mushrooms. Instead they rotted my cakes after about a week or two in the terrarium!!!! I was hoping someone could tell me what they were, and how to avoid them in the future. I made my own jars, But since I had been inactive for a while and had no prints on hand I ordered some Spore syringes from spore works. Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated..
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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Dont take this the wrong way but there is no such thing as a good harvest when it comes to PF tek.

DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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crazy938264
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Registered: 04/23/09
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Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Which method would you suggest?
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Quote:
crazy938264 said: Which method would you suggest?
Grains to bulk.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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Well my preferred method is spawning grain to bulk using 50/50 coir tek and making a monotub that you colonize the bulk substrate and fruit in.
You can do this with MS but I prefer G2G or LC to keep the genetics the same and provide more consistent flushes/potency.
DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
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Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: Well my preferred method is spawning grain to bulk using 50/50 coir tek
There is no such tek.
There is Damion5050's tek, but that's more like 80/20.

Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: You can do this with MS but I prefer G2G or LC to keep the genetics the same and provide more consistent flushes/potency.
You do realize that G2G and LC can both be MS right?
Unless you are starting them from clones or isolates, G2G or LCs are not going to give you more consitent flushes, or more potency.
You still started with millions of spores, so you still have millions of genetics, even if you spread it to 1000 jars.
This is why we clone/isolate single sets of genetics on agar.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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DeadPhan



Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 5,260
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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50/50 it just doesnt end!!!!
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Big Gulps! Alright! Well, See ya later! And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: Well my preferred method is spawning grain to bulk using 50/50 coir tek
There is no such tek.
There is Damion5050's tek, but that's more like 80/20.

Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: You can do this with MS but I prefer G2G or LC to keep the genetics the same and provide more consistent flushes/potency.
You do realize that G2G and LC can both be MS right?
Unless you are starting them from clones or isolates, G2G or LCs are not going to give you more consitent flushes, or more potency.
You still started with millions of spores, so you still have millions of genetics, even if you spread it to 1000 jars.
This is why we clone/isolate single sets of genetics on agar.
tek=technique it does not have to belong or be intellectual property of anyones. Im on my meds as well so im a bit off. There is no such thing as perfection or no such thing as a place without ignorance. Maybe you just dont know much about cultivation and dont understand what I mean. COLONIZED GRAINS, SPAWNED TO COIR/VERM. 1 Brick Coir + 2 1/2 Qts medium Verm. is what I use. The / may have been accidently included.
And also you are wrong about your second attempt at sounding smart, because when you make an LC you use a small amount of spores which allows for a smaller amount of networks to form and allows for a higher chance of a main dominant network. Same applies to G2G, when you add spores to a medium, many of spores form networks that are genetically different in the slightest. This means less genetic differences in whole and more isolation of fewer genetics, may not be just one or could be if you isolate it from a fruit body.
Excuse the fuck out of me if I was a little vague, im a bit rusty due to the whole probation thing. Ive got ~7 years under my belt so far, I may not make sense sometimes but I got my technique down quite solidly. It may differ from others but theres nothing that tells us to follow everything to a T.
DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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I try and give someone at least a vague direction to go and someone comes up all condescending and shit. Mitch bade muf huggas 
DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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DeadPhan



Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 5,260
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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your being way too butthurt about solid information.
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Big Gulps! Alright! Well, See ya later! And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!
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DeadPhan



Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 5,260
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: A bad harvest [Re: DeadPhan]
#19061178 - 10/30/13 11:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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i dont think anyone was being condesending. just informative and helpful. good luck to you with all that.
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Big Gulps! Alright! Well, See ya later! And if i claim to be a wise man, well, it surely means that i dont know!
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: tek=technique it does not have to belong or be intellectual property of anyones. Im on my meds as well so im a bit off. There is no such thing as perfection or no such thing as a place without ignorance. Maybe you just dont know much about cultivation and dont understand what I mean.
I understood what you meant, but you obviously did not understand what ( ) meant.
I was being happily informative, not being ignorant....you should look up the definition of the word if you don't believe me.
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: And also you are wrong about your second attempt at sounding smart, because when you make an LC you use a small amount of spores which allows for a smaller amount of networks to form and allows for a higher chance of a main dominant network. Same applies to G2G, when you add spores to a medium, many of spores form networks that are genetically different in the slightest. This means less genetic differences in whole and more isolation of fewer genetics, may not be just one or could be if you isolate it from a fruit body.
No bro.....you are wrong.
There is no rule that says "when making LCs, you must use very few spores", nor is there for G2G transfers.
Nice try tho.
No matter how much or how little spore solution is used, you cannot know for sure what "dominant network" will take over, if any.
They all grow together....LCs or G2G transfers do not "water them down", like you are saying it does, it just spreads it out over more substrate....all the networks continue to grow in unison.
Even if it did, how would you come to the conclusion that it would equal higher potency, or more even flushes?
You are talking about unknown genetics here....there is no way anyone can say that LCs or G2G transfers will give you better results than just inoculating a bunch of jars with spores.....it just makes no sense....you are not improving anything, just expanding the current.
When starting from spores, no matter the method, it is always a crapshoot of genetics.....G2G or LCs will not give you better odds, just more spawn.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (10/30/13 11:55 PM)
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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Im a bit cynical atm and in my asshole mood, IDK why but try and bear with me cuz im usually a super nice dude. So apologies if I seem a bit shitty.
Im talking from personal experience.
Multispore is a crapshoot, that is common knowledge. Also I may have worded myself wrong and been misunderstood so allow me to digress.
Example, You have 6 quart jars of sterilized grain (rye, WBS, etc...) and you inject each jar with MS. You then use these jars to spawn to bulk substrate (coir/verm). In the bulk substrate there is now multiple networks of mycelium of varying genetics (minute variation but still a variation) all "competing" to colonize and absorb the nutrients of the bulk substrate. This can cause cause inconsistent or uneven pinsets which can lead to inconsistent flushes and fruiting.
In contrast, you make an LC with 1 1/2 - 2cc's of a spore solution. You then use the colonized LC to inoculate all 6 jars of sterilized grain. All 6 of these jars, when colonized will have the same or very similar genetics due to it coming from one mother LC. This is not an isolation but it is the first step towards creating one. You spawn these 6 quarts in the same manner as the first example. there is a pretty good chance that there is a smaller amount of different "colonies" competing for the bulk substrate and its nutrients. Therefore there is a stronger network and distribution of nutes and water. This leads to more even pinsets and stronger, more consistent flushes. Excuse me if my terminology is not on point, I have had a hell of a life the past 10 months and my brain is full to capacity. But hopefully I explained myself a bit better with this.

No hard feelings man, when im cynical I tend to perceive other people as shitty no matter what their intention or reason for saying what they say. I try my hardest to not be an asshole but I can get butthurt easily sometimes and I admit that. Bygons will be Bygons, I just dont think you discrediting what I say 100% is not a legit motion.
Yours truly
DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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crazy938264
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 52
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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I don't wanna nit pick, But no one addressed my original question. What were those things growing on the bottom of my cakes that looked like mushroom matter?
Bye mushroom matter I mean the fleshy stuff that is left on the cakes sometimes when you pick a cluster or a unusually large shroom off.
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: You have 6 quart jars of sterilized grain (rye, WBS, etc...) and you inject each jar with MS. You then use these jars to spawn to bulk substrate (coir/verm). In the bulk substrate there is now multiple networks of mycelium of varying genetics (minute variation but still a variation) all "competing" to colonize and absorb the nutrients of the bulk substrate. This can cause cause inconsistent or uneven pinsets which can lead to inconsistent flushes and fruiting.
I think our definitions of "competing" are different, but I am with you so far...
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: In contrast, you make an LC with 1 1/2 - 2cc's of a spore solution. You then use the colonized LC to inoculate all 6 jars of sterilized grain. All 6 of these jars, when colonized will have the same or very similar genetics due to it coming from one mother LC. This is not an isolation but it is the first step towards creating one.
No, it is not...but I see what you are thinking....
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: You spawn these 6 quarts in the same manner as the first example. there is a pretty good chance that there is a smaller amount of different "colonies" competing for the bulk substrate and its nutrients.
You do not know this....there is know way to know this.
You have no idea how many spores you started with, so you have no idea how many networks there really are.
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: Therefore there is a stronger network and distribution of nutes and water. This leads to more even pinsets and stronger, more consistent flushes.
No, it doesn't.
It might be your experience, but I assure you it does not work like that.
If I place a single drop of spore solution on an agar dish, I might have to make 4 or 5 transfers before sectoring even occurs.
This means all those different genetics were all growing in unison, and not "competing" for the substrate.
Now if you use a very small amount of spores, yes, there will be les possible gentics, but this in no way assures you that it will be better or worse.
There is just know way to know.
You could use a 10cc syringe spread across 10 grain jars and spawn them all to the same tub and get very even pinsets...it is possible...it is also unpredictable.....hence the term crapshoot.
You could also use very little spore solution, G2G it out to 10,000 jars, and get very shitty pinsets on all substrates.
Why? Because it's a giant crapshoot...LOL
Just because there are less genetics in the pool does not mean there are good genetics in the pool.
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: No hard feelings man, when im cynical I tend to perceive other people as shitty no matter what their intention or reason for saying what they say. I try my hardest to not be an asshole but I can get butthurt easily sometimes and I admit that. Bygons will be Bygons, I just dont think you discrediting what I say 100% is not a legit motion.
No hard feelings, but I hope you learn something from this.
I hope I explained it in a matter that was easy to understand.
Let me know if I need to clarify anything.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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PsiLisaBin
Stranger<<<Strangest


Registered: 07/11/13
Posts: 128
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pics would be most helpful........
purely a guess: maybe they were pins that got smashed & ended up aborting?
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Quote:
crazy938264 said: I don't wanna nit pick, But no one addressed my original question. What were those things growing on the bottom of my cakes that looked like mushroom matter?
Sorry bud.....Most likely pins that aborted...or at least that's what it sounds like to me.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: You have 6 quart jars of sterilized grain (rye, WBS, etc...) and you inject each jar with MS. You then use these jars to spawn to bulk substrate (coir/verm). In the bulk substrate there is now multiple networks of mycelium of varying genetics (minute variation but still a variation) all "competing" to colonize and absorb the nutrients of the bulk substrate. This can cause cause inconsistent or uneven pinsets which can lead to inconsistent flushes and fruiting.
I think our definitions of "competing" are different, but I am with you so far...
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: In contrast, you make an LC with 1 1/2 - 2cc's of a spore solution. You then use the colonized LC to inoculate all 6 jars of sterilized grain. All 6 of these jars, when colonized will have the same or very similar genetics due to it coming from one mother LC. This is not an isolation but it is the first step towards creating one.
No, it is not...but I see what you are thinking....
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: You spawn these 6 quarts in the same manner as the first example. there is a pretty good chance that there is a smaller amount of different "colonies" competing for the bulk substrate and its nutrients.
You do not know this....there is know way to know this.
You have no idea how many spores you started with, so you have no idea how many networks there really are.
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: Therefore there is a stronger network and distribution of nutes and water. This leads to more even pinsets and stronger, more consistent flushes.
No, it doesn't.
It might be your experience, but I assure you it does not work like that.
If I place a single drop of spore solution on an agar dish, I might have to make 4 or 5 transfers before sectoring even occurs.
This means all those different genetics were all growing in unison, and not "competing" for the substrate.
Now if you use a very small amount of spores, yes, there will be les possible gentics, but this in no way assures you that it will be better or worse.
There is just know way to know.
You could use a 10cc syringe spread across 10 grain jars and spawn them all to the same tub and get very even pinsets...it is possible...it is also unpredictable.....hence the term crapshoot.
You could also use very little spore solution, G2G it out to 10,000 jars, and get very shitty pinsets on all substrates.
Why? Because it's a giant crapshoot...LOL
Just because there are less genetics in the pool does not mean there are good genetics in the pool.
Quote:
Demonic_Chronic said: No hard feelings man, when im cynical I tend to perceive other people as shitty no matter what their intention or reason for saying what they say. I try my hardest to not be an asshole but I can get butthurt easily sometimes and I admit that. Bygons will be Bygons, I just dont think you discrediting what I say 100% is not a legit motion.
No hard feelings, but I hope you learn something from this.
I hope I explained it in a matter that was easy to understand.
Let me know if I need to clarify anything.
perhabs you missed the words "chance" and "possibility".
The only thing I learned is that you and I do not agree on everything which is a ok.
DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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No, I saw them.... but there is always a chance or possibility that something might just happen...
This can be said about anything really....but this does not mean it will always happen like that, just because it has happened before.
I can agree to disagree tho.....cheers.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (10/31/13 02:11 AM)
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Demonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress



Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: No, I saw them.... but there is always a chance or possibility that something might just happen...
This can be said about anything really....but this does not mean it will always happen like that, just because it has happened before.
I can agree to disagree tho.....cheers.

You said it before I got a chance to. We live in a world of anomalies and things we "know" may turn out to be completely false in the future. Its happened hundreds of times throughout history.
Enjoy yourself 
DC
-------------------- The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable Is the violence that we do to ourselves When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.
 
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